Have we truly lost to a bad team

Harry · October 11, 2005

With Tulsa shocking USM in Hattiesburg, I think we can definitately move them into the good team category. K-State beat Kansas this past weekend and while they lost to OU in Norman (no crime even this year) you have to think that K-State, a Big 12 team, is still in the upper half of the D-I ranks. Our third loss was against Troy. I think Troy is a pretty good team. Their QB is a pretty poor passer but their defense has good speed and good tacklers. I like their offensive line and their power running game.

I am disappointed as the next guy about how this season has turned out thusfar.

I also am realistic.

I am realistic enough to know that we probably won't beat LSU in Baton Rouge.

I also realize that being 1-3 against the teams we have played is not reason for a "Dickey/Caine mutiny" either.

Clearly Dickey has his critics, and included in this group are some of our most loyal fans. That pains me deeply and I wish that it wasn't the case.

If you blame Dickey for all that ails us, then please feel free to make your opinions known. You have that right.

But please, don't take what has happened to this young team with a RS freshman QB who never played a college game against some pretty decent competition and try use that to fuel your agenda or vendetta against Dickey. It's premature for that in my opinion. The guy has led us to 4 straight bowl games and 25 conference games for goodness sake. He and his staff deserve the benefit of the doubt.

October 11, 2005

I doubt Troy would beat any of the teams that would be considered in the 'top 50'. That hardly qualifies them as a good team.

It is not just this year; it is all the lopsided losses over the years. Not that under the circumstances those weren't expected for a while. I just don't see it coming to an end without a dramatic next step in our evolution. I don't see the stadium as being that next step. However, no doubt it will help a little.

I am concerned because I have seen light at the end of the tunnel, and I know there are some people who in their ignorance would like to extinguish that light. Accordingly, I am not patient, because every day the woes drag on, not only gives those people more opportunities to extinguish that light, but also gives them more excuses for doing so.

Perhaps we could say that the university has done a poor job of painting a long-term vision for that constituency. But it's really just certain people who represent the university, who should be responsible for doing something about it. Maybe some of them just don't care. Sometimes I feel like I'm pulling for something that only has half a will to live. You see tantalizing signs of life, but time is not on our side.

eulesseagle · October 11, 2005

RV, DD & RF have brought us a long way and have built the program.....

We may not all agree on our OOC record and all the STATS that have been flying around lately but you have to admit that any one of the other SBC schools would like to say they have been to New Orleans just once.

Look at the OOC records of all the other SBC schools. We are all in the same boat!!

If you read the competitions boards -- UNT is still the team to beat.

UNT is the cream of the SBC!! That may not mean a great deal to a lot of people because of our OOC record but all you have to do is read the sport pages of all the rags when UNT matches up against other SBC schools.

BTW Harry....how is your aunt holding up?

GreenFlag · October 11, 2005

Ya know Harry, I will be at every home game if we got beat by a hundred. I am worried about the health of the program when we are consistently getting beaten BADLY by OOC foes and Joe Blow fan determines North Texas Football is bad boring football.

Love him or hate him, DD isn't doing us any favors in attendance. So many people are put off by what they are seeing on the field. They expect to see exciting college football and are not getting it.

I have talked to many casual fans in the parking lot after the games and they are TOTALLY put off by what they saw. Most won't be back. It is that bad.

The truth hurts sometimes. Thank goodness for the most kickass tailgate in the country!

PlummMeanGreen · October 11, 2005

I doubt Troy would beat any of the teams that would be considered in the 'top 50'. That hardly qualifies them as a good team.
It is not just this year; it is all the lopsided losses over the years. Not that under the circumstances those weren't expected for a while. I just don't see it coming to an end without a dramatic next step in our evolution. I don't see the stadium as being that next step. However, no doubt it will help a little.
I am concerned because I have seen light at the end of the tunnel, and I know there are some people who in their ignorance would like to extinguish that light. Accordingly, I am not patient, because every day the woes drag on, not only gives those people more opportunities to extinguish that light, but also gives them more excuses for doing so.
Perhaps we could say that the university has done a poor job of painting a long-term vision for that constituency. But it's really just certain people who represent the university, who should be responsible for doing something about it. Maybe some of them just don't care. Sometimes I feel like I'm pulling for something that only has half a will to live. You see tantalizing signs of life, but time is not on our side.
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Many of the players on the Troy U Trojan team that beat a (then) top ranked Big 12 Missouri football team in Troy's new stadium on ESPN last year should tell us all that they still have players with talent who have played the Big Boys in the national spotlight (and won).

Troy U' defense vs the Mean Green last week reminded me of the USM defense in our bowl game last December. I suppose every opponent of NT's this Fall has that video tape of the New Orleans Bowl.

We are all pretty impatient people in today's microwave society of "take your time--but hurry" type attitudes, but we are all going to have to wait for this Mean Green team to mesh, blend and come together. I hope all that begins this week at FIU and then continues the next week at La Tech, but if it doesn't we just have to all suck it up and still support our alma mater's football team because what is our alternative?

GMG!

October 11, 2005

... what is our alternative?
GMG!
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I can't off the top of my head recall how Missouri came out LAST YEAR. Funny you mention them because the first year of my 'illustrious' college career was spent in Columbia. I have been down to Austin to watch them play too and I was only slightly less disgusted by their effort.

We are among those who are supporting. Only the school can make significant inroads to increasing the numbers of those who are supporting. Winning against the Sun Belt only gets us so far. Winning against OOC will in itself only get us so far. I want to see the school aggressively reaching out, not waiting around. That's the only way progress will be sustained. I'm not going to keep, in the very long run, making a big noise about being for North Texas when every time we go against a team most people have heard of, we get embarrassed. Some of you guys have and that is commendable to a point. However, it takes thousands, not just a few guys, and the thousands don't have the stomach for it, and I'll say I don't either.

The alternatives are rather endless. There are pro teams, my kids' teams, my high school team, my graduate school team, or I could just spend more time at work or some creative hobby, or time and money with my family, though I do get them involved in supporting NT.

Of course no one should be giving up at this point, but we need to see a shorter-term plan, one that clearly calls for competition at the highest level. That is the only way to 'build the brand'.

GrandGreen · October 11, 2005

Tulsa and K State maybe better than most. However, we did not just lose to either one. K State had the most yards of offense in their History against NT. NT lose by 52 to Tulsa at home. Anyone that thinks Troy is a good team at this time can't be judging by anything but Belt standards. NT being nearly last in every offensive and defensive category in the NCAA demonstrates exactly how good the season has been so far.

As far as Meager at QB, he imo in time is going to be a good one. The problems with this team go much deeper than any one player including the quarterback.

MeanGreenBuzz · October 11, 2005

As far as Meager at QB, he imo in time is going to be a good one. The problems with this team go much deeper than any one player including the quarterback.
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I agree with you Grand, the problems do go deeper, and as I said on another thread that deeper problem is the center.

NT80 · October 11, 2005

I'll never be happy with this season. 54-2 in front of 23,000+ home fans and 54-7 are beyond trying to rationalize. We are not that young in key positions like RB, K, PR, WR, OL, LB, and DB to get beat like we are. Something is amiss in the organization and not being addressed correctly.

Edited October 11, 2005 by NT80

0footballfan0 · October 11, 2005

Yes....TROY.

I hate to say it, but Troy is not a good team. If they are the best the Sunbelt has to offer than I feel sorry for the SBC.

The game was a "who can look the worst" type of game.

MGW · October 11, 2005

Have we truly lost to a bad team?

I am amazed at the tidal shift that seems to take place every year among so many of the posters here from sheer and unadulterated optimism for the season and absolute support of Coach Dickey at the beginning of the year to the cyber-lynch mob that forms after a few games of OOC butt whoop'ns. It happens every year. My optimism is always tempered by the reality that DD has proven wholly inefficient outside of the SBC. Thus, my opinion of the Mean Green is not significantly different now than it was at the beginning of the year. Add to that that there have been real obstacles to overcome - especially with such an inexperienced QB who was not expected to be called upon until our academic casualty at that position. Thus, I think there is plenty of excuse for being 1-3.

That said, it is the manner in which we have been completely dismantled by Tulsa and K.State that makes me cringe. It is one thing to swallow 50-something to single digit shellackings of my beloved Mean Green by top 10 programs, which I think though painful are at least understandable to some extent - by that I mean explained by the greatness of the team against we're playing.

However, this season is different in that our OOC has not been monstrous. You started this thread with the question of whether we have lost to a bad team. To answer your question, I think the teams we have lost against are not bad, but they are much, much worse than we made them look, with perhaps the exception of Troy. Compounded by our inefficiency on offense that would one expect to not be so inept based on the fact that we have J.Thomas and P.Cobbs, it is the manner that we have been beaten, and I mean beaten that is so upsetting.

Nevertheless, I think those posters who have gone from the green DD kool-aid to now waving pitch forkes and looking for a rope are a tad ridiculous.

The Mean Green has unquestionably made improvements against Sun Belt/Big West type schools during Dickey's tenure. Not in OOC. And the fact that we are now getting it handed to us by Tulsa is unacceptable, for it weighs so heavily against the notion that we have made progress. The unfortunate reality is that we don't have the $ to do anything about it, and I think something should be done about it whenever it becomes financially possible to do so. Because of DD's extension, this will be a few years away at the earliest.

Remember back to the olden days when we all were debating the Marshall plan where we looked to model our move back from D1AA to D1A after Marshall? They did it by dominating the MAC, and we have followed that plan in Sun Belt action. There is wisdom in continuing with DD, but that wisdom is only on solid footing so long as we continue to dominate the Belt. Continued inefficiency in OOC action and mediocrity in the Belt means the Mean Green should be filing divorce papers from Dickey, until then put down the pitch forks.

Arkstfan · October 11, 2005

Remember back to the olden days when we all were debating the Marshall plan where we looked to model our move back from D1AA to D1A after Marshall? They did it by dominating the MAC, and we have followed that plan in Sun Belt action. There is wisdom in continuing with DD, but that wisdom is only on solid footing so long as we continue to dominate the Belt. Continued inefficiency in OOC action and mediocrity in the Belt means the Mean Green should be filing divorce papers from Dickey, until then put down the pitch forks.
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Marshall's first four years in I-A.

1997 10-3 won the MAC. Non-conference 2-1. Lost to West Virginia, defeated Army and I-AA Western Illinois. Lost by 3 to Ole Miss in Motor City Bowl.

1998 12-1 won MAC. 3-0 Non-conference. Defeated South Carolina, I-AA Troy, and I-AA Wofford. Won Motor City Bowl over Louisville.

1999. 13-0 won MAC. 3-0 Non-conference. Defeated Clemson, Temple, I-AA Liberty. Won Motor City Bowl over BYU.

2000. 8-5 won MAC. 1-2 non-conference. Lost to Michigan State and North Carolina, defeated I-AA SE Missouri. Won Motor City Bowl over Cincinnati.

Opponents ranked in final AP poll:

1997 Ole Miss #22 (bowl opponent)

1998 None

1999 None

2000 None

North Texas first four years in Sun Belt.

2001. 5-7 won SBC. Non-conference 0-5. Lost to TCU, OU, Texas Tech, USF, Troy. Lost NO Bowl to Colorado State.

2002. 8-5 won SBC. Non-conference 1-5. Beat I-AA Nichols State, lost to Texas, Alabama, TCU, Arizona, USF. Won New Orleans Bowl over Cincinnati.

2003. 9-4 won SBC. Non-conference 2-3. Beat Baylor and Troy, lost to OU, Air Force, and Arkansas. Lost NO Bowl to Memphis.

2004. 7-5 won SBC. Non-conference 0-4. Lost to Texas, FAU, Colorado, and Baylor.

Opponents in final AP poll:

2001: Oklahoma #6

2002: Texas #6, Alabama #11, TCU #23

2003: Oklahoma #3

2004: Texas #5

If UNT is following the Marshall plan you might better take a look at Marshall's schedules! Marshall played a MINIMUM of 8 games per season against MAC schools. In all four of those seasons they played 9 because of the MAC title game. The first four years they NEVER played a team in regular season that ended up ranked. They played a MINIMUM of one I-AA each season. That meant when their regular season schedule was set they had at least nine games every year they should either win or be competitive in.

UNT has never had more than 7 conference games (some seasons had as few as six). UNT has played one I-AA school in that span and a couple of I-AA transition schools that were above the I-AA scholie limit. Most seasons UNT had one less regular season game that UNT should have won or been competitive in than Marshall. UNT played four top 10 teams to Marshall's ZERO, and six top 25 to Marshall's 1.

I don't see UNT following the Marshall plan.

NT80 · October 11, 2005

UNT played four top 10 teams to Marshall's ZERO, and six top 25 to Marshall's 1.
I don't see UNT following the Marshall plan.
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Exactly. I don't mind UNT losing to a Top 25 team, if we have to play them, but we are losing to FAU, Baylor, Tulsa, and USF before they were really good. The false sense of accomplishment in the SBC has now been replaced by even worse play and losing within the SBC, as well as the average OOC games.

Edited October 11, 2005 by NT80

MGW · October 11, 2005

If UNT is following the Marshall plan you might better take a look at Marshall's schedules! . . . I don't see UNT following the Marshall plan.
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Man, you've got a load of extra time on your hands! Thanks for the stats. A closer reading of my post was to harken back to olden days when Mean Green fans discussed what was the best course of action to move up the pecking order in D1A. The focus was on shifting UNT's schedule away from the big pay day games and towards more winnable OOC games. In any event, the point I was making was that winning conference championships was how Marshall built itself up. They're not as good as they were after losing their coach, but the point remains the same - that success in conference can lead to the development of a program and to national recognition. UNT's losses in OOC unfortunately have taken away from that national recognition.

And for the record, I think UNT did adopt the Marshall plan to the extent it could when RV came in. To reduce road kill games and schedule winnable OOC games. I agreed then and think now this is the best course of action. Of course, the whole thing is dependent on success against those winnable OOC games, which my alma mater has proven inneffective at completely.

Edited October 11, 2005 by MGW

NT80 · October 11, 2005

Man, you've got a load of extra time on your hands! Thanks for the stats. A closer reading of my post was to harken back to olden days when Mean Green fans discussed what was the best course of action to move up the pecking order in D1A. The focus was on shifting UNT's schedule away from the big pay day games and towards more winnable OOC games. In any event, the point I was making was that winning conference championships was how Marshall built itself up. They're not as good as they were after losing their coach, but the point remains the same - that success in conference can lead to the development of a program and to national recognition. UNT's losses in OOC unfortunately have taken away from that national recognition.
And for the record, I think UNT did adopt the Marshall plan to the extent it could when RV came in. To reduce road kill games and schedule winnable OOC games. I agreed then and think now this is the best course of action. Of course, the whole thing is dependent on success against those winnable OOC games, which my alma mater has proven inneffective at completely.
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Good post. The respect we built through conference championships was equally dimished by the lack of success outside the conference.

UNTLifer · October 11, 2005

I agree with all of the replies that have been posted.

I don't fault our players, and I applaud our coaching staff for the conference winning streak, bowl games, etc..., but I do fault DD for the various reasons I have stated in other posts and for:

I'll never be happy with this season. 54-2 in front of 23,000+ home fans and 54-7 are beyond trying to rationalize. We are not that young in key positions like RB, K, PR, WR, OL, LB, and DB to get beat like we are. Something is amiss in the organization and not being addressed correctly.

I also blame them for the fact that all of these people attended these games and were totally turned off by what they saw. Follow that up with DD's typical woe is me, woe is the program, the fans don't like us, etc... b.s. and you have a problem.

Plus, I have a problem when the AD's hands are tied by the BOR to make decisions for the betterment of the program. Where there is smoke, there is fire, and there is a lot of smoke right now.

TIgreen01 · October 11, 2005

I think the single most disappointing thing of the last 4 years is our inability to compete for linemen in the recruiting wars. DD's philosophy is to play sound defense and take advantage of field position with a run based offense. To do this you need to be able to own the line of scrimmage with physically dominating play on both sides of the ball. It seems that we recruit to many tweeners on the line to be able to play this style. I know that it is harder to pick up the great lineman than it is to steal a great RB, but I would hope to be seeing more progress here than we have seen with 4 consecutive conference titles.

Add to that that most fans can see that we are clearly not talented enough to compete with anyone outside of the conference on the lines and it becomes frustrating to watch us continue with the current philosophy that is in place. I think that most fans would like to have a Charlie Weis type coach...one that is a gameplanner and is going to build his team around it's strengths on any given saturday based on the opponent.....DD is a system coach who is going to stand by his system regardless of the opponent and work on getting so good at the one thing that you do that noone can stop you at it. It is much more difficult be patient and watch the system grow.

meangreendork · October 11, 2005

It bugs me a lot to see great talent at RB and WR...and watch it get squandered by bad coaching. Heck, I don't like to see any of the talent on our team get squandered. It's painful, really.

I don't know how someone like Dickey can cough up a 54-2 loss and be shocked that people aren't happy with it. You can't rationalize that or the loss to Troy when both games should've been wins. Don't complain about the fans when 22,000+ show up to a Saturday game, then 17,000+ show up to a Tuesday game following 2 blowout games.

We're doing our part. If the fans didn't care, Fouts would've been empty before the end of the 3rd quarter against Tulsa and it would've been empty at the start of the half against Troy.

BleedGreen64 · October 11, 2005

I would like to see a total revamping of our offense. Open it up and makle it more exciting for the fans and the players.

We shoul have an all out recruitment of Clark Harrell (Ennis). With our recievers, running backs, and a wiede open offense we could turn the corner against all of the non BCS schools.

He would not even look at UNT with our present offense.

Arkstfan · October 11, 2005

The point to be made is that Marshall never saddled its team with many tough games. They played in a league very similar to the Sun Belt and played more games against that caliber of school.

Look at the break down this way comparing each of Marshall's first years in the MAC vs. UNT's first years in the Sun Belt.

Year 1

Marshall 9 MAC games 1 MAC caliber, 1 I-AA, 2 BCS (one of those in a bowl)

UNT 6 SBC, 2 SBC caliber, 2 BCS

Year 2

Marshall 9 MAC, 2 I-AA, 1 BCS

UNT 6 Sun Belt, 1 Sun Belt caliber, 1 I-AA, 2 BCS

Year 3

Marshall 9 MAC 2 BCS (one was Temple so really 1 BCS and 1 MAC caliber), 1 I-AA

UNT 7 Sun Belt, 1 Sun Belt caliber, 3 BCS (one Baylor so 2 BCS, 1 Sun Belt caliber)

Year 4

Marshall 9 MAC, 2 BCS, 1 I-AA

UNT 7 Sun Belt, 1 Sun Belt caliber, 3 BCS (again one was Baylor).

In that span Marshall played 5 I-AA opponents to UNT's 1. They started off all but guaranteed one more win per season. If you play 10 games against teams the caliber of your league and you are merely average that's 5 wins vs. playing 8 such games and getting 4.

El Paso Eagle · October 11, 2005

Arkstfan,

Good points. The one that hurts us the most is the fact we are 1 of 4 in our Bowl game where Marshall was 3 of 4. Until the Belt grows a bit more the teams in the Belt will be noted more for how they play in OOC games.

NT80 · October 11, 2005

Arkstfan,
Good points. The one that hurts us the most is the fact we are 1 of 4 in our Bowl game where Marshall was 3 of 4. Until the Belt grows a bit more the teams in the Belt will be noted more for how they play in OOC games.
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I believe Marshall received it's reputation and image from it's OOC wins, not MAC wins. They beat some quality teams out of their conference and played an exciting brand of football, mostly passing.

October 12, 2005

I am amazed at the tidal shift that seems to take place every year among so many of the posters here from sheer and unadulterated optimism for the season and absolute support of Coach Dickey at the beginning of the year to the cyber-lynch mob that forms after a few games of OOC butt whoop'ns. It happens every year. ...
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I was shocked last year in Austin. Still, I was shocked again this year about Tulsa and KState. Do you really think this is headed in the right direction? Where exactly do you think it leads, and when?

Maybe you've been desensitized. Some people on here can't seem to think of an alternative, because they can't see past the current budget. Unless the budget increases by a couple million dollars a year, specifically for football coaches salaries, it's not going to get any better. Maybe you think I'm dreaming saying the budget should increase like that. But it has to. The competitive landscape has changed dramatically. I was ready to support devoting that kind of money to the current staff, but those blowouts changed that. If they're not going to dramatically increase the budget, then yeah I would say we should just try to maintain consistency. However, if they're not going to increase the budget for football coaches' salaries dramatically, then we are all wasting our time.