Real Numbers Read Them

eulesseagle · October 6, 2005

Eagle-96---you just proved MY point!!!!! If you could ONLY find 4 Mid-Major Schools, which in the last four years that had winning records against BCS schools you prove my point of consistancy. There are, probably, 50 or so Mid-Major Schools and if only 4, or so, Mid-Major programs have consistant winning records against BCS schools, in the last 4 years, that is less than 10% of all Mid-Major schools having winning records against their bigger brothers.

As you can therefore see having a consistant OOC winning record against BCS schools is TOUGH!!.....not impossible but tough!!! NOW, if you look at all NON-BCS schools against all BCS schools you may find that their OOC records against these teams may be similar to ours!!!! And that would be the NORM!!!

So before you start jumping on the bandwagon wanting a replacement for DD, please look at ALL the intangibles.

1. strength of conference.

2. mid-major vs bcs school match ups.

3. mid-major vs mid major match ups.

4. mid-major vs d-1aa records match ups.

If you are not comparing apples to apples then you are NOT making a legitimate comparison.

KingDL1 · October 6, 2005

During our 26 conference game winning streak, which started in '01, we have beaten 2 teams with a WINNING RECORD. That's TWO TEAMS!!!!!!!
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For all those lost on the OCC games which was not my point, but want to be arguing to no end that they think all our OOC games have been power houses that we should get beaten and don't expect more. Fine.

What I see in FFR numbers is extreme mediocrity in all our glory in the last 4 years we have only beaten 2 teams that finished the season with winning records. This is not a lot to boast about.

We have to worry about the future of this program, we have to meet attendance requirements now to stay in 1A. If you all will take a second and play devils advocate and realize that we don't really have much to praise DD about and you may see a big slip coming that our current fan base can't support. If DD goes down in flames the next 2 years we will likely be back in 1AA.

Unless the NCAA has changed Title nine lately.

ipEAGLE · October 6, 2005

I really don't believe this is a rebuilding yr except for the QB/CENTER/DBS. Other than that we have plenty of expierence and should not be playing like crap!!!!!

SpaceMonkey · October 6, 2005

I guess you're right that we don't have much to praise DD about. I mean after all, he only helped take us to New Orleans 4 times...a place which your own signature at the bottom professes your love and affection for.

FirefightnRick · October 6, 2005

The funniest part of the post is the part that says "this is not a rebuilding year." Yeah. Sure it isn't. New starting linemen, new starting QB, nine new starters on defense. Rebuilding? Nah. Every team replaces about 13 starters a year.
Freaking hi-larious.

What is even more hilarious is how you continue to drag our veteran offense in with our young defense to make your arguement that there isn't anything wrong. King was referring to my previous post concerning our offense. Our defense IS rebuilding and I have yet to see anyone here say otherwise about it. TCU is doing the very same thing, but with a back up QB on offense who only saw one play prior to the BYU game, but you certainly don't see them trying to play for field position, hoping to KEEP IT CLOSE for the 4th quarter. They know they are going to get scored on, so they go out and try to put as many points on the board the ENTIRE game using any means necessary.

Replacing three starters on offense doesn't make it a young offense that is having to start over. Especially considering our RB situation which, any team in the country would love to have.

I have always feared this was going to happen at some point after Deloach left. That once we finally had a year in which we truly had to rebuild our defense without him, and had to rely solely on our offense to take up the slack, that people would refer back to our great domination of Sun Belt teams as an excuse that there is not a problem offensively.

This offense has alway's struggled and always will. It's had flashes against very poor teams, but for the most part it's struggled against weak programs and get's easily defeated against equal or stronger programs. In it, our players are taught to keep it close, play ball control, keep the other team back on their end of the field and hope our defense sets us up so we can score with a short field at some point late in the game. That's a defeatist attitude that does not scare anyone. DD has referred to this philosophy countless times on his show and in the paper. After the K State game he clearly stated that once we get behind, we are placed in a situation that does not favor our system. Really? So basically fans can go on out to the car when we get behind because we have little hope of coming back?

That's not how you sell tickets.

Rick

Edited October 6, 2005 by FirefightnRick

TIgreen01 · October 6, 2005

This offense has alway's struggled and always will. It's had flashes against very poor teams, but for the most part it's struggled against weak programs and get's easily defeated against equal or stronger programs. In it, our players are taught to keep it close, play ball control, keep the other team back on their end of the field and hope our defense sets us up so we can score with a short field at some point late in the game. That's a defeatist attitude that does not scare anyone. DD has referred to this philosophy countless times on his show and in the paper. After the K State game he clearly stated that once we get behind, we are placed in a situation that does not favor our system. Really? So basically fans can go on out to the car when we get behind because we have little hope of coming back?

Very good (and true) comments. There have only been 2 (T-W-O) games in the last 4 years (since that is the timeframe everyone wants to discuss) that our offense has produced anything noteworthy against anyone outside the Sun Belt conference. Those games?? Colorado last year and Baylor in 2003. You could argue that our offense didn't do anything against Baylor until they basically quit playing in the second half after their 6th straight turnover. Both of those games our offense went for over 500 yards....I can't remember another that we went over 400...anyone know where to look up past season's individual game stats?

I'll go ahead and add some speculation to this thread....anyone else look up at Dr. Pohl in the suites at Tuesday night's game? I did....right after the Meager pick with about 6 minutes left in the 4th--you know, when half the stadium got up to leave?? He looked flat out pissed off. True, he could have been mad at something totally unrelated, but I still wonder how much it hurts guys like RV and Pohl (who have STUCK THEIR NECKS OUT for DD) to watch us lay egg after egg in big games? Is their patience wearing thin?

El Paso Eagle · October 6, 2005

ElPasoEagle--If you remember the SBC was a step above the Big West, at that time, which was at the time that the BWC was disolving. Everyone was in favor of moving to a better conference. Personally, UNT should always strive to get into a better conference but until that time arrives we still have to win in football, basketball and all other athletics as well as upgrade our facilities.
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Euless,

I agree at the time it looked like the belt was a better conference, but it now looks as if that was more of a goods sales pitch than anything else. Look, I have o problem keeping DD (for now) but we must demand improved OOC performance.

UNTLifer · October 6, 2005

Our OOC games have been against, in the last 4 years:
TCU 2x, Oklahoma 2x, Texas 2x, Texas Tech, Colorado State, Alabama, Arizona, Cincinatti, Air Force, Arkansas, Memphis, Baylor, and Southern Miss..
_____________________________________________________________________
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We should be competitive with TCU, Colorado State, Arizona, Cincinatti, Air Force, Memphis, Baylor, Southern Miss and adding this years teams Tulsa and La Tech. My biggest complaint isn't necessarily the losses, but how NT has lost. Poor game plan, poor discipline, no adjustments and an appearance that they don't care which are all reflections on game preparation and coaching.

DD's offensive system hasn't allowed us to be competitive with these teams and instead of moving forward, I think we are starting to slide backwards.

eulesseagle · October 6, 2005

ElPasoEagle---I totally agree with you and everyone else who wants to see a better winning percentage against OOC opponents.

Keep in mind that we can not do that playing against teams similar to Texas, Oklahoma, K-State, Alabama etc etc.....Like I stated before it is tough, but not impossible, for Mid-Majors to have a consistant winning percentage against BCS schools.

Granted, I would like to see DD & his staff "evolve" our team into more of a "balanced attack" program instead of his current philosophy of the run, keeping the game close to the 4th quarter to see if we can win!!!

I believe we just need to start kicking butt and taking names from the first play. Just let the other team know that we have no intention to keep the game close for three quarters to see if we have a chance of winning!!!!

If that means running the ball on someone 80-90% of the time to win the game so be it......if it means "chunkin' the pumkin' 80-90% of the time to win or any other combination then so be it........!!!!

What our biggest concern is:

1. We play too conservative and not play to win from the onset of the game!!!

2. Our OOC, in the past, has been over-loaded with the Big BCS schools.

I will agree with many of you that:

1. We need to play more OOC games with Mid-Majors and fewer with BCS schools. I see nothing wrong playing a Texas D-1AA team annually kinda like what some of the other D-1 Texas schools do.

2. We still need to play in the $$ games for the budget!!

I want to see our team and our coaching staff be sucessful in all their endeavors at UNT. I do not want to set anyone up for failure. DD has done a great job for UNT but by watching the Troy game it was apparent to me that he was actually getting away from his old philosophy of "the run." We will have the opportunity to see what he is going to do for the remainder of the season on the % of run/pass. I have confidence in DD and his staff to come up with the right game plan and adjustments.

adman · October 6, 2005

How is that idiotic? I guess that every team in the SEC is a powerhouse in your opinion. First you say "Take any team in the SEC and then you say minus Vandy. Well they are in the SEC right? What about Miss State the last 4 years they are 11-35. Kentucky is 15-31(outstanding record)Ole Miss is 28-20(not exactly setting the world on fire). South Carolina is 25-22(stellar).
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Hands down the SEC is the strongest conf. in the country and I think just about everyone will agree with that. And to say that Bama and Arkansas are "not too good" because of 9-4 records discounts the fact that 8 or so of those games are against other SEC teams. 7- 8 wins in the SEC is a hard thing to do.

Eagle-96 · October 6, 2005

Hands down the SEC is the strongest conf. in the country and I think just about everyone will agree with that. And to say that Bama and Arkansas are "not too good" because of 9-4 records discounts the fact that 8 or so of those games are against other SEC teams. 7- 8 wins in the SEC is a hard thing to do.
←

Apparently Sagarin disagrees:

2005 rankings:

CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS

1 BIG TEN (A) = 80.76 80.34 ( 1) 11

2 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 79.78 79.49 ( 3) 12

3 PAC-10 (A) = 79.43 79.63 ( 2) 10

4 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 77.91 77.81 ( 4) 12

5 BIG 12 (A) = 75.55 75.97 ( 5) 12

6 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 72.15 71.41 ( 7) 9

7 BIG EAST (A) = 71.48 72.13 ( 6) 8

8 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 67.51 68.34 ( 8) 3

9 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 64.71 65.15 ( 10) 12

2004 Final Rankings:

CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS

1 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 77.91 78.09 ( 2) 11

2 PAC-10 (A) = 77.84 78.89 ( 1) 10

3 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 76.98 76.98 ( 4) 2

4 BIG 12 (A) = 76.42 77.08 ( 3) 12

5 BIG TEN (A) = 75.63 75.29 ( 5) 11

6 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 74.13 74.31 ( 6) 12

7 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 72.08 72.91 ( 7) 8

8 BIG EAST (A) = 71.98 71.56 ( 8) 7

9 WESTERN ATHLETIC (A) = 67.40 68.40 ( 9) 10

2003 Final Rankings:

CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS

1 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 79.91 79.11 ( 1) 9

2 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 79.62 78.67 ( 2) 12

3 BIG TEN (A) = 77.59 76.44 ( 4) 11

4 PAC-10 (A) = 76.37 76.79 ( 3) 10

5 BIG 12 (A) = 76.25 75.61 ( 5) 12

6 BIG EAST (A) = 74.45 73.86 ( 6) 8

7 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 71.85 72.14 ( 7) 8

8 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 70.49 70.08 ( 8) 4

9 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 65.12 64.16 ( 10) 11

2002 Final Rankings:

CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS

1 BIG 12 (A) = 79.01 78.17 ( 2) 12

2 PAC-10 (A) = 78.84 79.14 ( 1) 10

3 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 78.69 78.13 ( 3) 12

4 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 77.99 77.38 ( 4) 9

5 BIG TEN (A) = 77.50 77.12 ( 5) 11

6 BIG EAST (A) = 76.56 75.26 ( 6) 8

7 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 66.39 66.71 ( 7) 8

8 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 65.54 64.63 ( 9) 10

9 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 65.03 66.03 ( 8) 6

BTW:

My quotes say "pretty good" and "good but not great". That is a far cry from "not too good".

Edited October 6, 2005 by Eagle-96

FireFightnJoey · October 6, 2005

It's all about how we lose to those top BCS programs mentioned. Playing a game and losing by a couple touchdowns would be a heck of alot easier to swallow than 65-0, 54-2 (TULSA), 54-7, 37-3 to name a few. I don't even want to know what LSU is going to do to us.

I watched most of those games mentioned and most of them in person. They were extremely boring and humiliating. Dickey can't even beat the marginal OOC opponents.

rhaprez03-04 · October 6, 2005

Man, how quickly we turn on the Coach.

Green92 · October 6, 2005

Man, how quickly we turn on the Coach.

Naw, this happens every September. If you pull up the archives for the past several years you wouldn't be able to tell which year you where in. Some hate DD, always have, some love DD, always will. Just the nature of the beast.

Still haven't made my mind up.

adman · October 6, 2005

Apparently Sagarin disagrees:
2005 rankings:
CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS
1 BIG TEN (A) = 80.76 80.34 ( 1) 11
2 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 79.78 79.49 ( 3) 12
3 PAC-10 (A) = 79.43 79.63 ( 2) 10
4 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 77.91 77.81 ( 4) 12
5 BIG 12 (A) = 75.55 75.97 ( 5) 12
6 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 72.15 71.41 ( 7) 9
7 BIG EAST (A) = 71.48 72.13 ( 6) 8
8 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 67.51 68.34 ( 8) 3
9 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 64.71 65.15 ( 10) 12

2004 Final Rankings:
CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS
1 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 77.91 78.09 ( 2) 11
2 PAC-10 (A) = 77.84 78.89 ( 1) 10
3 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 76.98 76.98 ( 4) 2
4 BIG 12 (A) = 76.42 77.08 ( 3) 12
5 BIG TEN (A) = 75.63 75.29 ( 5) 11
6 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 74.13 74.31 ( 6) 12
7 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 72.08 72.91 ( 7) 8
8 BIG EAST (A) = 71.98 71.56 ( 8) 7
9 WESTERN ATHLETIC (A) = 67.40 68.40 ( 9) 10
2003 Final Rankings:
CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS
1 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 79.91 79.11 ( 1) 9
2 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 79.62 78.67 ( 2) 12
3 BIG TEN (A) = 77.59 76.44 ( 4) 11
4 PAC-10 (A) = 76.37 76.79 ( 3) 10
5 BIG 12 (A) = 76.25 75.61 ( 5) 12
6 BIG EAST (A) = 74.45 73.86 ( 6) 8
7 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 71.85 72.14 ( 7) 8
8 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 70.49 70.08 ( 8) 4
9 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 65.12 64.16 ( 10) 11
2002 Final Rankings:
CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN SIMPLE AVERAGE TEAMS
1 BIG 12 (A) = 79.01 78.17 ( 2) 12
2 PAC-10 (A) = 78.84 79.14 ( 1) 10
3 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 78.69 78.13 ( 3) 12
4 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 77.99 77.38 ( 4) 9
5 BIG TEN (A) = 77.50 77.12 ( 5) 11
6 BIG EAST (A) = 76.56 75.26 ( 6) 8
7 MOUNTAIN WEST (A) = 66.39 66.71 ( 7) 8
8 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 65.54 64.63 ( 9) 10
9 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 65.03 66.03 ( 8) 6
BTW:
My quotes say "pretty good" and "good but not great". That is a far cry from "not too good".
←

My bad for quoting you wrong.

As for the rest, I stand by what I said. Sagarin has their opinion I have mine. Street and Smith agree with me:

http://www.secsports.com/index.phps=&url_c...hange_well_id=2

Sagagrin and you don't.

meangreen11 · June 24, 2021

On 10/6/2005 at 1:30 AM, KingDL1 said:

It constantly amazes me how little people pay attention, above are listed the real numbers of the real games of the Glory of DD not so hot.

People look into it yourself get off the DD Kool-Aid® and realize this is not the rebuilding year many are making of it. Put DDs head on the line now period.

Well stated @KingDL1

untjim1995 · June 24, 2021

Man, this was a nice trip down memory lane. Those DD teams played such a vanilla offense. I still think the most embarrassing win I've ever seen was that 7OT fiasco at Fouts that we somehow didn't lose to FIU. 7 OTs against a school that was like 3 years old, hadn't won a game, and sounded like an airport, and we somehow won that game 25-22. Our kicker made 5 FGs (out of 9 attempts). We scored one TD, got the two point conversion, and also got a safety. Their FG kicker and ours combined to miss 8 FGs, which included 4 missed FGs in the OTs. Dickey literally acted like it was just fine that we had won our second game of the season in that fashion. I knew then it was just a matter of when he would get fired, that his offense would never get anyone to buy a ticket to come to the game other than the 3000 diehards we had back then.

One other amazing thing about that season was that our OC, Ramon Flanigan, who also thought he was doing great things here, was just brutal towards Daniel Meager, killing any chance that kid had to build himself into something decent. That DD never even thought for a moment about firing his ass--even after that super embarrassing moment in the stands where he was ready to fight our very own SilverEagle at halftime--told you just how much give-up he had for this place. But as I said before, looking back in 20/20 hindsight, DD probably deserved to feel the way he did with the absolutely inept and apathetic (maybe even flat out resentful) views of our BOR, administration, faculty, and AD.

What SL has here now is literally light years from what Dickey and Dodge worked under--think about these comparisons:

Dickey/Dodge Era SL Era

Played at Fouts--worst stadium in America and its not even close Play at Apogee Stadium--one of the nicest in G5

Played in the Sun Belt with teams nobody heard of or cared about Play in CUSA West--regional teams in TX and LA

Had RV as their AD Has Wren Baker as AD

UNT admin led by people who loathed athletic funding Has a BOR and admin fully onboard with athletics

Salaries for the head coach and staff that were extremely low Pay more than ever for head coach and staff

Its why we cannot understand how SL cannot win here with all of these advantages. It just makes no sense when you look at who is competing with and just how far down CUSA, especially CUSA West TX schools, have fallen.

Cr1028 · June 24, 2021

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

Man, this was a nice trip down memory lane. Those DD teams played such a vanilla offense. I still think the most embarrassing win I've ever seen was that 7OT fiasco at Fouts that we somehow didn't lose to FIU. 7 OTs against a school that was like 3 years old, hadn't won a game, and sounded like an airport, and we somehow won that game 25-22. Our kicker made 5 FGs (out of 9 attempts). We scored one TD, got the two point conversion, and also got a safety. Their FG kicker and ours combined to miss 8 FGs, which included 4 missed FGs in the OTs. Dickey literally acted like it was just fine that we had won our second game of the season in that fashion. I knew then it was just a matter of when he would get fired, that his offense would never get anyone to buy a ticket to come to the game other than the 3000 diehards we had back then.

That game disgusted me. It was the first time I left a game before the school song is played at the end. 4 quarters plus 7 overtimes and we put up a whopping 269 yards of total offense to go with those 25 points. Absolutely pathetic.

97and03 · June 25, 2021

17 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

That game disgusted me. It was the first time I left a game before the school song is played at the end. 4 quarters plus 7 overtimes and we put up a whopping 269 yards of total offense to go with those 25 points. Absolutely pathetic.

And it was FREEZING and sleeting if I recall correctly. I think that was the game we had two fire pits going in the parking lot to stay warm.

TheColonyEagle · June 25, 2021

19 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

Man, this was a nice trip down memory lane. Those DD teams played such a vanilla offense. I still think the most embarrassing win I've ever seen was that 7OT fiasco at Fouts that we somehow didn't lose to FIU. 7 OTs against a school that was like 3 years old, hadn't won a game, and sounded like an airport, and we somehow won that game 25-22. Our kicker made 5 FGs (out of 9 attempts). We scored one TD, got the two point conversion, and also got a safety. Their FG kicker and ours combined to miss 8 FGs, which included 4 missed FGs in the OTs. Dickey literally acted like it was just fine that we had won our second game of the season in that fashion. I knew then it was just a matter of when he would get fired, that his offense would never get anyone to buy a ticket to come to the game other than the 3000 diehards we had back then.

One other amazing thing about that season was that our OC, Ramon Flanigan, who also thought he was doing great things here, was just brutal towards Daniel Meager, killing any chance that kid had to build himself into something decent. That DD never even thought for a moment about firing his ass--even after that super embarrassing moment in the stands where he was ready to fight our very own SilverEagle at halftime--told you just how much give-up he had for this place. But as I said before, looking back in 20/20 hindsight, DD probably deserved to feel the way he did with the absolutely inept and apathetic (maybe even flat out resentful) views of our BOR, administration, faculty, and AD.

What SL has here now is literally light years from what Dickey and Dodge worked under--think about these comparisons:

Dickey/Dodge Era SL Era

Played at Fouts--worst stadium in America and its not even close Play at Apogee Stadium--one of the nicest in G5

Played in the Sun Belt with teams nobody heard of or cared about Play in CUSA West--regional teams in TX and LA

Had RV as their AD Has Wren Baker as AD

UNT admin led by people who loathed athletic funding Has a BOR and admin fully onboard with athletics

Salaries for the head coach and staff that were extremely low Pay more than ever for head coach and staff

Its why we cannot understand how SL cannot win here with all of these advantages. It just makes no sense when you look at who is competing with and just how far down CUSA, especially CUSA West TX schools, have fallen.

Well said

TheColonyEagle · June 25, 2021

18 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

That game disgusted me. It was the first time I left a game before the school song is played at the end. 4 quarters plus 7 overtimes and we put up a whopping 269 yards of total offense to go with those 25 points. Absolutely pathetic.

One way to look at it: We gave up as many points in 4 qtrs and 7 OTs as we now give up in the 1st qtr.