UNT: Too many students' 2nd choice

SUMG · June 24, 2005

How many of us have experienced, what I experienced ONCE AGAIN today.

I was at a friend's business.....and was wearing a UNT shirt. An 18 year old female employee at the business....saw my shirt and started up a conversation. It seems this young lady is going to UNT in the fall.

I was telling her how much I loved my college years.....and how I still go to Denton numerous times each year because of sporting events.

It was then that this nice young woman let me know that her first love is......UT. Her dad graduated from there, and she bleeds orange. As a matter of fact, she told me......."I'm thinking about transferring to UT after a year or so."

I've seen this so many times. UNT is their second choice, and because of that, they seem to hold it against UNT. They never ever develop the natural love for ones' alma mater, because their first love is a place that many of them never attend. (Can you say....Craig Miller and Oklahoma?)

Anyway, maybe this young gal will get to Denton and love UNT and stay there. But who knows? When I was a student back in the mid-to-late 70s......there was a student who lived in Kerr Hall, who was a big Aggie fan. He, as far as I know, never attended one NT game of any kind. One day, I had the gall to ask this putz, "How come you don't love North Texas?" His response: "How come you do?"

Anyway, I submit that the number one reason why we deal with an apathetic student body and alums.......many of them went to UNT just because it was there. Not because it was their choice.

And that I'll never understand. If you go to a school......shouldn't that school, your alma mater.....isn't it sort of natural for you to love that particular school?

meangreendork · June 24, 2005

Why?

Because NT hasn't got the same kind of social clout that UT/A&M do. It's a matter of reputation, and simply said, those schools have more of it than we do. I blame this on the merchandising- they have so much of it and we have very little. I can't tell you how many kids I came up with in HS who wanted to be at UT/A&M simply because the names were familiar. Once we become a household name in our state, we'll have the same thing happen to us. A better football team, academics that get better each year and the near-impossible admission reqs for those schools will help out.

SUMG · June 24, 2005

Why?
Because NT hasn't got the same kind of social clout that UT/A&M do. It's a matter of reputation, and simply said, those schools have more of it than we do. I blame this on the merchandising- they have so much of it and we have very little. I can't tell you how many kids I came up with in HS who wanted to be at UT/A&M simply because the names were familiar. Once we become a household name in our state, we'll have the same thing happen to us. A better football team, academics that get better each year and the near-impossible admission reqs for those schools will help out.

You may right about clout. But you know what, in this day and age, there are a lot of high schools which are higher profile than others.

I could certainly never imagine a scenario, where a Grapevine High student was a fan of Southlake Carroll, just because SC, is higher profile, more well known, and is occasionally on TV.

So, I'm not discounting that kids will come to NT being Aggie, Longhorn, fans whatever. But, isn't it normal for you to pull for the school you're attending? Isn't that normal?

I guess not.

Greenin2005 · June 24, 2005

It's all about winning, when NT starts getting media credit for their wins then you will see this change. It may take 10 years but it will happen. Growing up in Austin in the late 80's and early 90's I was one of the few UT fans around my school, everyone was wearing A$M stuff cuz they ere winning and UT was down. It seemed A$M crap was everywhere while UT couldn't even gain support in their own city.

SUMG · June 24, 2005

I beg to differ about the schools "maxing out" and it being beneficial. Yes, we may get more students because of that. But, if those students wanted to go to UT or A$M, and they were "maxed out"......we'd be dealing with more of what I started this thread about.....students who go to UNT, but wish they had been able to go elsewhere.

And one more time....I can understand if someone wanted to go elsewhere. I can. But what I'll never understand, is once those people are attending UNT and on course to graduate UNT......why they don't start loving UNT.

SilverEagle · June 24, 2005

It's really not all that complicated SUMG.

People want to go to those "other" schools because it gives them a sense of "belonging" and "empowerment". Once your accepted at those schools, "bingo" your in the "gang" and your part of something very big, well respected,.....and powerful. If your self-esteem is not very good, then your self-esteem gets an instant boost.

Going to North Texas and declaring yourself a devoted fan of the school involves more of an emotional risk. You have to really like yourself, and you have to really have confidence in your own decisions.

Edited June 24, 2005 by SilverEagle

OldTimer · June 24, 2005

North Texas was my first choice. I turned down a music (band) scholarship from another college to go there. I was also in the band that played at games so I was at every home game (3 years and I graduated) and also was in the ROTC band that played at the Basketball games.

My son tells me my grandsons will not go to NT (1 in already enrolled at tCU) because of the lack of school spirit, NT doesn't have the "closeness" that they are experiencing at Oakridge.

Met my wife in an accounting lab course at NT that I was conducting. Her folks had talked TCU to her but it was too expensive , but we went to every home game ( she sat beside me in the band during the 3rd and final year I attended NT (We were married the Sept of this 3rd year.

emmitt01 · June 24, 2005

Silver is exactly right. It's the herd mentality. It takes more courage to wear your NT clothing and brag about the big things NT is doing than to be an aTm or UT fan. Why? You don't have a whole gang of lemmings to back you up. Next time you see someone in a UT or aTm hat or t-shirt ask them what year they graduated. I guarantee you 9 out of 10 people will say "I never went there but they're my favorite." It's not just football success and it's definitely not academics. It's being a part of the "crowd" that appeals to people. Ask that same person what programs at UT or aTm are nationally ranked and they'll probably be honest and say "I don't even know, I just think they're cool."

Stand Up, don't be disheartened. You are among the few with your own devotions, your own convictions and the ability to make your own decisions.

Green Lantern · June 24, 2005

Silver is exactly right. It's the herd mentality. It takes more courage to wear your NT clothing and brag about the big things NT is doing than to be an aTm or UT fan. Why? You don't have a whole gang of lemmings to back you up. Next time you see someone in a UT or aTm hat or t-shirt ask them what year they graduated. I guarantee you 9 out of 10 people will say "I never went there but they're my favorite." It's not just football success and it's definitely not academics. It's being a part of the "crowd" that appeals to people. Ask that same person what programs at UT or aTm are nationally ranked and they'll probably be honest and say "I don't even know, I just think they're cool."
Stand Up, don't be disheartened. You are among the few with your own devotions, your own convictions and the ability to make your own decisions.

I had a scenario that unfolded exactly like how you explained at the UT game last year. I was in line for the restroom and some idiot UT fan started mouthing off to me about how NT sucks and how we were getting our asses kicked. I smiled and played along eventually asking him what year he graduated from UT (he looked to be in his mid thirties), and i could have mapped out his response in my mind before he even said it. "Well, I didn't actually go to UT, but my dad...blah blah blah". So I told the guy that at least I am man enough to support my school and be proud to wear green regardless of the circumstances (ie getting killed in that UT game). Naturally, he did not have anything to say to that and was actually laughed at by several actualy UT alums in line as well.

The mob/herd mentallity is very prevalent. It takes a certain mentality to be able to differentiate yourself from what is considered to be "cool" or popularly accepted. Many of NT's fans have had similar experience to the one that I had this last year and I'm always excited to hear when they stand up to these blowhards.

PlummMeanGreen · June 24, 2005

I had a scenario that unfolded exactly like how you explained at the UT game last year. I was in line for the restroom and some idiot UT fan started mouthing off to me about how NT sucks and how we were getting our asses kicked. I smiled and played along eventually asking him what year he graduated from UT (he looked to be in his mid thirties), and i could have mapped out his response in my mind before he even said it. "Well, I didn't actually go to UT, but my dad...blah blah blah". So I told the guy that at least I am man enough to support my school and be proud to wear green regardless of the circumstances (ie getting killed in that UT game). Naturally, he did not have anything to say to that and was actually laughed at by several actualy UT alums in line as well.
The mob/herd mentallity is very prevalent. It takes a certain mentality to be able to differentiate yourself from what is considered to be "cool" or popularly accepted. Many of NT's fans have had similar experience to the one that I had this last year and I'm always excited to hear when they stand up to these blowhards.

Great posts, Emmitt01 & Green Lantern...

Edited June 24, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

SilverEagle · June 24, 2005

Great posts, Emmitt01 & Green Lantern...

Ahem.....

FirefightnRick · June 24, 2005

Green Lantern

So I told the guy that at least I am man enough to support my school and be proud to wear green regardless of the circumstances (ie getting killed in that UT game)

Perfect response. I have done this as well, in fact I did it to a fellow FF three weeks ago at a party while he was giving me a tour of his new house, and his loft office that was completely dedicated to the horns. I didn't say a thing until he brought up last years game and giving me hell. I then popped the question about when he graduated from there? He never attended UT nor did any of his family. Needless to say the bragging quckly ended. But I think he and others respect the fact that, hey at least I'm proud of where I went.

I'm in the same boat as the student SUMG came across. Well, 23 years ago I was. Then after researching NT, watching them take on TCU a couple of times and actually beating them in '86, I turned down an acceptance to a&m in '87 and followed several friends and transferred from Tarleton as well as other schools to Denton. A year or two later two of my classmates from High School transferred in from a&m as well and we had a blast and never looked back. Since then I have met many incoming freshmen who are very excited about going to NT. We have several FF's who have come to me in the past about their kids looking into going to NT. Their responses have all sounded great and their anticipation of going to freshman O positive.

Rick

Edited June 24, 2005 by FirefightnRick

NT80 · June 24, 2005

You may right about clout. But you know what, in this day and age, there are a lot of high schools which are higher profile than others.
I could certainly never imagine a scenario, where a Grapevine High student was a fan of Southlake Carroll, just because SC, is higher profile, more well known, and is occasionally on TV.
So, I'm not discounting that kids will come to NT being Aggie, Longhorn, fans whatever. But, isn't it normal for you to pull for the school you're attending? Isn't that normal?
I guess not.

It's all media hype. The newspapers and ESPN all tell us how great UT and A$M are and how hard it is for freshman to get in, blah, blah, blah. Kids believe it if they see it on TV.

When I applied to colleges I always had a fondness for NT since I lived in Denton my 9th and 10th grade HS years. But, I wanted to start in Engineering and NTSU didn't have that major back then.

I was accepted to UT, A$M, Tech, and UTA. In those days, no one wanted to be a riddiculed "Aggie", it was un-cool and had too few girls. Texas was too big, even in 1976. Tech was too far away in dusty ole West Texas. So, even though I started at UTA, I was still a fan of and followed NT sports during the Fry and Blakeley years.

I hated UTA, mainly because it had NO campus life and poor athletics. It's Engineering Dept was mainly foreigners and I quickly found myself longing to be back in Denton and NT. I changed to Business and transferred my Soph year. I enjoyed the real campus life at NT, met my wife there, followed NT sports, and started my career thru the Co-op program there. Happily ever after.

Edited June 24, 2005 by NT80

NTEagle08 · June 24, 2005

When I applied to North Texas back in the Fall of 2002, it was my first and only choice, in fact I didn't even apply to any other school. But I know people like me are still in the minority at North Texas. I came from a high school in Houston where I would guess 70-80% of the students who went to college went to Big XII schools(A&M, Baylor, Texas Tech, and UT). In the Houston area, you would be surprised how little is known about North Texas, most of my classmates in High School didn't even know where it was. I have seen appreciation for North Texas go up every year with the new Freshman classes, although granted I have only seen 2(including my own), but I bet this years incoming class trumps last years.

Edited June 24, 2005 by NTEagle08

Baby Arm! · June 24, 2005

...three weeks ago at a party while he was giving me a tour of his new house, and his loft office that was completely dedicated to the horns. I didn't say a thing until he brought up last years game and giving me hell. I then popped the question about when he graduated from there?

How many of us would love to see UNT have fans like this??? Newsflash...You dont have to be a graduate of a college to be a fan of their sports teams!!!. They used to say Notre Dame led the nation in "Subway Alumni"-- fans that had no connection to the school but were fans of the team. It's these subway alumni that make the difference in filling a 70,000 seat stadium every saturday versus struggling to put 30,000 BIS.

North Texas needs to market itself and get "subway alums" Until we start pulling fans from outside of the alumni/student pool we are always going to stuggle with attendence.

mad dog · June 24, 2005

Guys, people giving you guff for where you go to school doesn't end. Ever. How incredibly successful has OU been? How many national title games have they been in/won? Yet how many people would just as soon spit on some ol' Sooner than give them the time of day? That's just the way things work. Being successful doesn't shield you from it. In fact, it makes it worse.

The original poster is totally right. Personally, I got into NT because it was the last school in the area accepting applications, and, being turned down from Air Force service, I didn't have another choice. My first year almost soured me on the whole NT experience. But then that crazy 2001 campaign came around. That year's success hooked me in a hurry.

But it isn't just media hype that'll get us to a UT or A&M level. It isn't just winning our conference. It isn't just winning out of conference games. It isn't just about a new football stadium, or clever marketing, or season ticket sellouts. It isn't just about donations, or community interest, or new logos on the uniforms. It isn't research designation, landmark grants, or academic prestige. It isn't just involving the students that have been here, or the students that are here, or the students that will be here. It isn't even establishing a winning tradition and pride.

It is every thing you see in the previous paragraph, contiuously compounded over the course of years. If any of those pieces is missing, the mythical idea of North Texas as a power institution in Texas; that dream we all have and yearn for, gets further and further away.

It is truly a gargantuan task we have in front of us, and we can all only do what we can do. It takes guys like Green Lantern and FFR standing up for ourselves and our university. It takes the football team holding up their end of the bargain and winning games as they have the past four years. It takes a dedicated staff in the Athletic office working hard everyday to get things built, schedules fixed, and budgets balanced. We are all doing what we can.

We'll get there, but it is going to be a heck of a journey: to be measured in years, not months.

PlummMeanGreen · June 24, 2005

Guys, people giving you guff for where you go to school doesn't end. Ever. How incredibly successful has OU been? How many national title games have they been in/won? Yet how many people would just as soon spit on some ol' Sooner than give them the time of day? That's just the way things work. Being successful doesn't shield you from it. In fact, it makes it worse.
The original poster is totally right. Personally, I got into NT because it was the last school in the area accepting applications, and, being turned down from Air Force service, I didn't have another choice. My first year almost soured me on the whole NT experience. But then that crazy 2001 campaign came around. That year's success hooked me in a hurry.
But it isn't just media hype that'll get us to a UT or A&M level. It isn't just winning our conference. It isn't just winning out of conference games. It isn't just about a new football stadium, or clever marketing, or season ticket sellouts. It isn't just about donations, or community interest, or new logos on the uniforms. It isn't research designation, landmark grants, or academic prestige. It isn't just involving the students that have been here, or the students that are here, or the students that will be here. It isn't even establishing a winning tradition and pride.
It is every thing you see in the previous paragraph, contiuously compounded over the course of years. If any of those pieces is missing, the mythical idea of North Texas as a power institution in Texas; that dream we all have and yearn for, gets further and further away.
It is truly a gargantuan task we have in front of us, and we can all only do what we can do. It takes guys like Green Lantern and FFR standing up for ourselves and our university. It takes the football team holding up their end of the bargain and winning games as they have the past four years. It takes a dedicated staff in the Athletic office working hard everyday to get things built, schedules fixed, and budgets balanced. We are all doing what we can.
We'll get there, but it is going to be a heck of a journey: to be measured in years, not months.

I don't know 90% of the posters on this board nor what era or experience they had at NT, but my biggest admiration of all NT loyalists goes to those NT Exes and GMG.com posters like Gray Eagle, George (Derr) MG61, Huff, Old Timer, ArlingtonMeanGreen, Dallas Green, Green Grenade II, greenjoe and countless others I've left off this list that have been fighting the good fight with all this NORTH TEXAS business since the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's. I find that to be a remarkable record of genuine loyalty. Oh, some of us bitch, moan and groan because we know what our (unfullfilled)potential is in Mean Green Country and keep hoping we'll live long enough to see some of it fulfilled, but I don't think hardly anything that comes from this forum could ever be called destructive yet (hopefully) of a constructive nature.

Yet longtime alums and fans as the aforementioned deserve some NT version of a Purple Heart Award. I can only hope that when I've hit 40-50 years of following all this that I will still have a spring in my step and a gleam in my eye when I hear someone refer to: THE University of North Texas and, of course, THE MEAN GREEN!

<>*<> On the cover of my black leather-bound 2005 appointment book given to me as a gift is this saying: "Success is a Journey--Not a Destination"............ and in many ways UT and TAMU have (somewhat) hit destination points and that with the strategic help of the Permanent University Fund which I seem to always mention ad nausem in these posts that refer to our 2 flagship schools----hellsbells, I confess that I envy those 2 systems for having had the PUF-advantage for well over a century AND often wondered where U of NT would be if we would have had the PUF.

Anyway......someone needs to remind today's Texas HS seniors who go around "Hooking those Horns" and "Gigging those Aggies" about how that very significant oil-influenced cash cow Permanent University Fund played in those 2 schools early beginnings. Remind them that what UNT is builiding we are doing the old fashioned way AND without having had the silver spoon assistance of an 1870's Texas legislature who insured the 2 flagships would always financially have a headstart among all the other Texas public colleges such as UH, Texas Tech and North Texas among others.

But its like you said in the last sentence of your post, illuvious32, "We'll get there, but it is going to be a heck of a journey; to be measured in years, not months." But like someone once told me, "take your time, but hurry!"

Edited June 25, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

Zeke · June 25, 2005

I was a horn fan growing up............................when I got to NT, it became obvious to me that anyone that goes to a division 1 school and roots for another D1 school instead of their own alma mater is an absolute loser.

emmitt01 · June 25, 2005

UT (and to a lesser degree, TAMU) are MUCH harder to get into now in part because there are so many more applications. Thats not media hype, its a fact. UT doesnt even have to take the top 10% anymore.

Wrong! The Texas legislature has yet to rescind the 10% rule, in fact this last session it was to be discussed and never was. Admissions counselors at state schools all over Texas are still complaining because of the inability to recruit "well-rounded" students because they have to take all of the 10%'ers. And take a look at the median SAT and ACT scores for the state's public universities. Perhaps then you'll stop being a Big XII apoligist.

NT91 · June 25, 2005

We all bleed green and I will always stand up for the MEAN GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

greenminer · June 25, 2005

How many of us would love to see UNT have fans like this??? Newsflash...You dont have to be a graduate of a college to be a fan of their sports teams!!!. They used to say Notre Dame led the nation in "Subway Alumni"-- fans that had no connection to the school but were fans of the team. It's these subway alumni that make the difference in filling a 70,000 seat stadium every saturday versus struggling to put 30,000 BIS.
North Texas needs to market itself and get "subway alums" Until we start pulling fans from outside of the alumni/student pool we are always going to stuggle with attendence.

True, Baby Arm: we would love to have fans similar to what ND can claim. But even a Notre Dame subway fan would be put in his place if asked where they graduated from.

I think'd it be funny to find that ND subway fan who graduated from, say, U of Tennessee that has only a small UT flag hanging from their wall surrounded by TONS of ND paraphernalia. If it were me, I'd feel a little awkward defending myself if some observer brought that up.

-gm

DeepGreen · June 25, 2005

I'd like to weigh in on this subject, as it seems to be brought up every off-season. First of all, I originally wanted to be one of those aggie "wannebes" until I heard the military thing was a required activity. Heard about North Texas, visited the campus on my own even before campus tours were in vogue. It was the middle of July, hot as hell, all surrounding open fields of grass were burned to a crisp. You'd have thought I was in the middle east. Regardless, I decided I wanted to attend NT. I've never looked back.

I'll sound like a broken record on this, but my take on NT's problems are:

- Our early administrators being content with the teachers college mentality.

- We were always outside of the Southwest Conference circle of universities. The public only heard of the SWC schools, particularly Texas and TAMU. Turn on the radio on any Saturday during the fall and you would only hear the SWC games. For all those years the public had those schools in their faces at every turn. It's no wonder NT was always an afterthought.

- Rather than have vision on moving NT forward, presidents like JC Mathews <_< was content on never raising the bar. We only used athletics for students that wanted to play sports while attending college. Athletics was never meant to enhance the university or build alumni pride.

I firmly believe that the tide is turning. I was at a social function recently, having dinner with three other couples at our table. I learned that two couples had daughters that would be attending NT this fall. A local, highly regarded and very competitive Catholic high school had a listing of all graduates and where they would be attending college this fall. Five students listed North Texas. I almost spewed my morning coffee all over the article! That's seven students that I know of from the Beaumont/Port Arthur area that will be in Denton this fall. I'm sure there are more. Unbelievable. Was TAMU or UT their first choice? I don't know. Will they support NT at athletic events and become supportive alumni after they graduate. I hope so.

If only NT had, at the very least, put an emphasis on remaining D1A in athletics and not regress to 1AA. I dare say we would be charter members of CUSA and be much more respected in the academic, and athletic communities. What were they thinking back then?

Edited June 25, 2005 by DeepGreen

NT91 · June 25, 2005

Yeterday my boss asked "Did you go to NT". I said yes. I was happy to see he used "NT" not UNT. He then said "That's a hard school to get into.. how did you get in?" He was poking fun at me. See our rep is changing.

SUMG · June 25, 2005

Yeterday my boss asked "Did you go to NT". I said yes. I was happy to see he used "NT" not UNT.

"UNT" is only a slight to those who allow it to be. I use both UNT and NT, and don't get bent out of shape, if someone calls us "UNT".

Edited June 25, 2005 by SUMG

NT80 · June 25, 2005

"UNT" is only a slight to those who allow it to be. I use both UNT and NT, and don't get bent out of shape, if someone calls us "UNT".

I think the "UNT" image perception thing is mainly just to some who are close locally to the program. I've seen many in other parts of the country use UNT, or even NTU not knowing. Some still think we're North Texas "State" as you've seen in media. I prefer North Texas, to cover all eras of the school. It's like Notre Dame, you never hear it referred to as UND.

Edited June 25, 2005 by NT80