Brock Vice in Portal

[Tommy Gadberry]

 

[Big Z]

I think I saw him play once and he went 0-2 from the three point line 

[drex]

An absolute non factor, which says a lot for a seven footer.

[GMG_Dallas]

Y'all are hating pretty hard on a redshirt freshman. 0-2 from 3 but his shot was smooth. Didn't get many opportunities. 

[Cooley]

1 hour ago, drex said:

An absolute non factor, which says a lot for a seven footer.

Hard to do anything when a kid isn't given an opportunity to play. Hodge screwed all the guys on the bench. Well, at least they gave Stone able time over his career to prove he wasn't an option.   
 

[ForneyGreen]

30 minutes ago, Cooley said:

Hard to do anything when a kid isn't given an opportunity to play. Hodge screwed all the guys on the bench. Well, at least they gave Stone able time over his career to prove he wasn't an option.   
 

I wonder about this ... because Mac and Hodge both used very short game-time rotations.  I tend to think it's more of a "trust" and "what I've seen in practice" thing where UNT (like most G5's) just don't have deep rosters... and coaches are paid to win... so they are going to keep their best 5-7 out there as long as humanly possible (unless they have a lot of depth).

[Big Z]

36 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Y'all are hating pretty hard on a redshirt freshman. 0-2 from 3 but his shot was smooth. Didn't get many opportunities. 

smooth enough for the transfer portal 

[UNTLifer]

Did Hodge really run a short rotation?  I’ve watched a lot of basketball and it seems most teams run about an eight man rotation unless they get into foul trouble or the injury bug strikes. 

[NT93]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Did Hodge really run a short rotation?  I’ve watched a lot of basketball and it seems most teams run about an eight man rotation unless they get into foul trouble or the injury bug strikes. 

Here’s the minutes played by the top 5 teams in the AAC, plus the two teams who just played for the national championship.  I have no clue as to injuries, blowout wins, blowout losses, or other factors that affect the normal minutes played.   Seems to me that 8 guys getting most of the minutes is pretty much the norm.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

8 is norm?  Every team here clearly has 9 guys in the rotation except us. 

[NT93]

11 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

8 is norm?  Every team here clearly has 9 guys in the rotation except us. 

I’m not seeing how Houston, Tulane, Memphis, or UAB clearly have a 9 man rotation?  Florida is iffy since #’s 8-10 didn’t play in anywhere from 13-24 of their games.

Houston’s “9th man” averaged 11 min per game, but he only played in 8 games.

Memphis is pretty much the same as Houston except the “9th man” played in 16 games.

UAB is also similar except the “9th man”averaged 13 minutes per game, but only played in 7 games.

Tulane had 8 guys avg 10+ minutes, but 2 of those were exactly 10 min per game, so it seems their bench wasn’t as deep as ours.

Florida had only 7 guys that played meaningful minutes in every game.

I would also venture a guess that Florida, Houston, and Memphis had some games that were not close where guys got more minutes than usual, so the minutes per game is misleading.

Check out the national championship game box score.  There’s no 9 man rotation going on with either team when it’s a game they have to win.  Closer to a 7 man rotation than a 9 for both teams.  

 

[UNTLifer]

58 minutes ago, NT93 said:

I’m not seeing how Houston, Tulane, Memphis, or UAB clearly have a 9 man rotation?  Florida is iffy since #’s 8-10 didn’t play in anywhere from 13-24 of their games.

Houston’s “9th man” averaged 11 min per game, but he only played in 8 games.

Memphis is pretty much the same as Houston except the “9th man” played in 16 games.

UAB is also similar except the “9th man”averaged 13 minutes per game, but only played in 7 games.

Tulane had 8 guys avg 10+ minutes, but 2 of those were exactly 10 min per game, so it seems their bench wasn’t as deep as ours.

Florida had only 7 guys that played meaningful minutes in every game.

I would also venture a guess that Florida, Houston, and Memphis had some games that were not close where guys got more minutes than usual, so the minutes per game is misleading.

Check out the national championship game box score.  There’s no 9 man rotation going on with either team when it’s a game they have to win.  Closer to a 7 man rotation than a 9 for both teams.  

 

Exactly. Thanks for taking the time to dig into those minutes.  

[GMG_Dallas]

1 hour ago, NT93 said:

I’m not seeing how Houston, Tulane, Memphis, or UAB clearly have a 9 man rotation?  Florida is iffy since #’s 8-10 didn’t play in anywhere from 13-24 of their games.

Houston’s “9th man” averaged 11 min per game, but he only played in 8 games.

Memphis is pretty much the same as Houston except the “9th man” played in 16 games.

UAB is also similar except the “9th man”averaged 13 minutes per game, but only played in 7 games.

Tulane had 8 guys avg 10+ minutes, but 2 of those were exactly 10 min per game, so it seems their bench wasn’t as deep as ours.

Florida had only 7 guys that played meaningful minutes in every game.

I would also venture a guess that Florida, Houston, and Memphis had some games that were not close where guys got more minutes than usual, so the minutes per game is misleading.

Check out the national championship game box score.  There’s no 9 man rotation going on with either team when it’s a game they have to win.  Closer to a 7 man rotation than a 9 for both teams.  

 

Don't look at the minutes, look at the games played. Most of those teams have 2-3 guys who've played about 20 games even if only 5-10 minutes per game. Still evidence of opening up the rotation, when appropriate, or giving guys minutes when the team has a big lead. Keeps your core fresh and gets others experience. When Massie got hurt, the only player with experience we could add to the rotation was Stone. Nobody else was ready because they never had a chance. I will never subscribe to the idea that none of the other guys (Mason, Cotton, Vice) are quality enough to get 5-10 minutes in a game we're up by 15+. This just wears on your core even more.

[NT80]

6 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Don't look at the minutes, look at the games played. Most of those teams have 2-3 guys who've played about 20 games even if only 5-10 minutes per game. Still evidence of opening up the rotation, when appropriate, or giving guys minutes when the team has a big lead. Keeps your core fresh and gets others experience. When Massie got hurt, the only player with experience we could add to the rotation was Stone. Nobody else was ready because they never had a chance. I will never subscribe to the idea that none of the other guys (Mason, Cotton, Vice) are quality enough to get 5-10 minutes in a game we're up by 15+. This just wears on your core even more.

^^^ This.

[NT80]

Coach Robinson and Cleveland State last season looks like they used almost 10 players in rotation.   

Only 2-3 players received minimal minutes; one may have been from injury?  

Look at individual stats on this site:

https://csuvikings.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Don't look at the minutes, look at the games played. Most of those teams have 2-3 guys who've played about 20 games even if only 5-10 minutes per game. Still evidence of opening up the rotation, when appropriate, or giving guys minutes when the team has a big lead. Keeps your core fresh and gets others experience. When Massie got hurt, the only player with experience we could add to the rotation was Stone. Nobody else was ready because they never had a chance. I will never subscribe to the idea that none of the other guys (Mason, Cotton, Vice) are quality enough to get 5-10 minutes in a game we're up by 15+. This just wears on your core even more.

This is what drove me crazy during the year.  Why, when up big, did we not run Mason, Cotton or Brock?  Makes no sense, and now they are gone.

[NT93]

1 hour ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Don't look at the minutes, look at the games played. Most of those teams have 2-3 guys who've played about 20 games even if only 5-10 minutes per game. Still evidence of opening up the rotation, when appropriate, or giving guys minutes when the team has a big lead. Keeps your core fresh and gets others experience. When Massie got hurt, the only player with experience we could add to the rotation was Stone. Nobody else was ready because they never had a chance. I will never subscribe to the idea that none of the other guys (Mason, Cotton, Vice) are quality enough to get 5-10 minutes in a game we're up by 15+. This just wears on your core even more.

Its a combination of minutes and games played.  A guy that played 10 minutes a game, but only played in 15 games is NOT a part of the rotation, but a guy that played 10 minutes a game in every game probably is.  You're actually making a completely different argument of "having guys read."  That's a valid argument, but it's different than players who are part of the rotation.  Your rotation is the guys who are playing meaningful minutes in meaningful games.    Go look at the box scores of games decided by 10 points or less and you'll pretty much find the number of players in the teams rotation.

[GMG_Dallas]

35 minutes ago, NT93 said:

Its a combination of minutes and games played.  A guy that played 10 minutes a game, but only played in 15 games is NOT a part of the rotation, but a guy that played 10 minutes a game in every game probably is.  You're actually making a completely different argument of "having guys read."  That's a valid argument, but it's different than players who are part of the rotation.  Your rotation is the guys who are playing meaningful minutes in meaningful games.    Go look at the box scores of games decided by 10 points or less and you'll pretty much find the number of players in the teams rotation.

Yes I agree with you there is a difference between main rotation and guys getting minutes in games with big leads. My point is get guys regular minutes early on in the season and they could develop into rotation guys later on. I also think we're cherry picking here on what being part of the rotation here. You watch some NBA games and you'll see guys get 0 minutes one game and 20 the next based on the match-up. That doesn't mean they're not part of the rotation. Just means the coach may feature different guys for tactical reasons.

By the way, here's UCONN's 23-24 player stats. Look at how many guys played in 30+ games. 

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

This is what drove me crazy during the year.  Why, when up big, did we not run Mason, Cotton or Brock?  Makes no sense, and now they are gone.

how many games were we really up big? 

[NT93]

51 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Yes I agree with you there is a difference between main rotation and guys getting minutes in games with big leads. 1. My point is get guys regular minutes early on in the season and they could develop into rotation guys later on. I also think 2. we're cherry picking here on what being part of the rotation here. 3. You watch some NBA games and you'll see guys get 0 minutes one game and 20 the next based on the match-up. That doesn't mean they're not part of the rotation. Just means the coach may feature different guys for tactical reasons.

4. By the way, here's UCONN's 23-24 player stats. Look at how many guys played in 30+ games. 

1.  I understood your point, that's why I noted that you were making a valid argument in regards to having players ready to play.  

2.  Definitely cherry picking.  Let's go to Google so everyone is working off of the same definition:  A basketball team's "rotation" is the group of players who are most likely to be on the court during a game, as opposed to those who are primarily bench players

3.  I feel like that is rarely, if ever, seen in college.

4.  When you win your NCAA tournament games by an average of over 23 points per game, you probably had a lot of games that bench players got extended minutes.

[Censored by Laurie]

I think it was pretty telling that when Massie was out only Stone got the spare minutes. Stone was a trusted part of the '23-'24 rotation (30 GP, 14 minutes/game) and then completely fell out of the rotation last season (16 GP, 5 minutes/game)...so it didn't appear Hodge had much "senior-loyalty" to get him minutes...

maybe, just maybe Mason wasn't actually ready to contribute last season. 

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, GMG_Dallas said:

You watch some NBA games and you'll see guys get 0 minutes one game and 20 the next based on the match-up.

NBA benches are also filled with...checks notes...10 NBA basketball players. there's a pretty big difference in calling down Dwight Powell and trusting he can contribute after a string of DNPs than asking the same of Brock Vice

[NT80]

1 hour ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I think it was pretty telling that when Massie was out only Stone got the spare minutes. Stone was a trusted part of the '23-'24 rotation (30 GP, 14 minutes/game) and then completely fell out of the rotation last season (16 GP, 5 minutes/game)...so it didn't appear Hodge had much "senior-loyalty" to get him minutes...

maybe, just maybe Mason wasn't actually ready to contribute last season. 

Stone was good on defense but an offensive liability.  We were playing 4 on 5 when we had the ball.  
Mason had 4 times the offensive ability of Stone, and if only half the defense, it would be worth it to put Mason on the floor instead. 

[NT93]

24 minutes ago, NT80 said:

Stone was good on defense but an offensive liability.  We were playing 4 on 5 when we had the ball.  
Mason had 4 times the offensive ability of Stone, and if only half the defense, it would be worth it to put Mason on the floor instead. 

WVU clearly hired the wrong guy from UNT😁

[GMG_Dallas]

1 hour ago, Censored by Laurie said:

NBA benches are also filled with...checks notes...10 NBA basketball players. there's a pretty big difference in calling down Dwight Powell and trusting he can contribute after a string of DNPs than asking the same of Brock Vice

And D1 benches are filled with... checks notes... 10+ D1 players...

Cotton had 6 D1 offers, Vice had 10, and Mason had 12. You're not going to convince me neither of the 3 are capable of carving out a role on a D1 roster. It's more likely Hodge didn't want to prioritize developing them. Maybe he was already hearing via his agent that bigger programs were sniffing around so Hodge knew he needed to win now which meant focusing on experienced D1 players over the younger guys.

Whatever the reason, it's behind us now. It seems coach Robinson is willing to give young guys an opportunity. I'm excited to see what this program will look like in a year or two under his leadership.