Defense - Someone Explain One Positive Attribute

[BigWillie]

11 minutes ago, Green Lantern said:

Agree! We also need to focus on our special teams being a disaster in critical situations. Our historically bad defense keeps a critical eye off of them as well.

I appreciate your analytical approach - genuinely. I think you know that we pay at the TOP END of the G5 pay scale for this. I’m not looking for incremental progress from the worst defense I’ve ever seen in person in Year 2. And I sat through Ron Mendoza, so I’m battle hardened and scarred from shitty North Texas defenses.

This is a very good point. I think we can admit this defense is better, but only incrementally. As you said, I think for paying top G5 pay, that's just not good enough. We need to expect more. That's always been the problem. 

[aztecskin]

45 minutes ago, Green Lantern said:

Agree! We also need to focus on our special teams being a disaster in critical situations. Our historically bad defense keeps a critical eye off of them as well.

I appreciate your analytical approach - genuinely. I think you know that we pay at the TOP END of the G5 pay scale for this. I’m not looking for incremental progress from the worst defense I’ve ever seen in person in Year 2. And I sat through Ron Mendoza, so I’m battle hardened and scarred from shitty North Texas defenses.

Yeah I am not a fan of the pay for Caponi or anything. I am not even saying we should be a 3-high team. I am just trying to understand their reasoning. All of MGN and all this is just about trying to be a smarter fan is all. So yeah. I can recognize as @TIgreen01 was saying, that we have been poor vs Tech and Memphis. 

For me, a smarter fan asks What is a reasonable amount of progress over last year for this defense, given the constraints put upon this program (money, prestige, etc). I said "mid-tier AAC". I think they are on schedule for something like that with three terrible offenses still on the schedule.

The other side of it is considering what is good. Lots of people said "Memphis has a good defense, if we had that we would be good". Well, again, they got killed. They also hadn't played anyone of note outside of Navy and ourselves. So we could apply the same logic to Memphis --- "Only winning teams they played killed them!" -- means we have to anchor our argument a little differently. 

Maybe means we can't just fire Caponi so quickly. Because maybe we don't know what we are talking about. What should we fire a coach for? I would say if he can't recruit, can't adapt, and cant show improvement. So far Caponi has recruited talent, adapted, and shown slight improvement. So I have to be okay with it based on my own criteria even if I don't think he's amazing. 

[BigWillie]

1 hour ago, aztecskin said:

Yeah I am not a fan of the pay for Caponi or anything. I am not even saying we should be a 3-high team. I am just trying to understand their reasoning. All of MGN and all this is just about trying to be a smarter fan is all. So yeah. I can recognize as @TIgreen01 was saying, that we have been poor vs Tech and Memphis. 

For me, a smarter fan asks What is a reasonable amount of progress over last year for this defense, given the constraints put upon this program (money, prestige, etc). I said "mid-tier AAC". I think they are on schedule for something like that with three terrible offenses still on the schedule.

The other side of it is considering what is good. Lots of people said "Memphis has a good defense, if we had that we would be good". Well, again, they got killed. They also hadn't played anyone of note outside of Navy and ourselves. So we could apply the same logic to Memphis --- "Only winning teams they played killed them!" -- means we have to anchor our argument a little differently. 

Maybe means we can't just fire Caponi so quickly. Because maybe we don't know what we are talking about. What should we fire a coach for? I would say if he can't recruit, can't adapt, and cant show improvement. So far Caponi has recruited talent, adapted, and shown slight improvement. So I have to be okay with it based on my own criteria even if I don't think he's amazing. 

If only they kept stats to track progress year over year. That would be a perfect way to show improvement. 

Last year 131 rank. So far this season 124, and the season isn't over and we still have a couple of big games coming up.

Not sure about you, but still being in the bottom 15 of the nation in defense is not acceptable for one of the highest paid DCs in G5. Slight improvement is acceptable? Moving up 7 spots? 

Unacceptable, sorry.

[97and03]

13 hours ago, Matt said:

Stone Cold celebration is pretty neat. 

We would actually have to generate TOs to see it. 
 

13 hours ago, BigWillie said:

Ridge is still our best player. Lone bright spot in a deep, deep chasm...

Unfortunately, wasn’t his best night. 

[97and03]

2 hours ago, aztecskin said:

Yeah I am not a fan of the pay for Caponi or anything. I am not even saying we should be a 3-high team. I am just trying to understand their reasoning. All of MGN and all this is just about trying to be a smarter fan is all. So yeah. I can recognize as @TIgreen01 was saying, that we have been poor vs Tech and Memphis. 

For me, a smarter fan asks What is a reasonable amount of progress over last year for this defense, given the constraints put upon this program (money, prestige, etc). I said "mid-tier AAC". I think they are on schedule for something like that with three terrible offenses still on the schedule.

The other side of it is considering what is good. Lots of people said "Memphis has a good defense, if we had that we would be good". Well, again, they got killed. They also hadn't played anyone of note outside of Navy and ourselves. So we could apply the same logic to Memphis --- "Only winning teams they played killed them!" -- means we have to anchor our argument a little differently. 

Maybe means we can't just fire Caponi so quickly. Because maybe we don't know what we are talking about. What should we fire a coach for? I would say if he can't recruit, can't adapt, and cant show improvement. So far Caponi has recruited talent, adapted, and shown slight improvement. So I have to be okay with it based on my own criteria even if I don't think he's amazing. 

Since you like stats, here is one. 37.1 vs 35.7

One damn point improvement from 2023. That’s your incremental progress for the highest paid DC among our peer group. A guy with ZERO coordinator experience at any of the three highest levels of college football. Zero, and he gets a huge contract to have a bottom ten defense for two seasons. I don’t think there is a program other than NT where that would happen.  Just ridiculous, and it is on the HC first and foremost. And his offense doesn’t make it any easier for the DC to succeed. 

Edited October 20, 2024 by 97and03

[GoMeanGreen1999]

The defense is not good, but going for it on 4th and 2 from your 40, right after your defense forced a punt, does nothing to encourage your defense.  So yes, the defense is bad, but the head coach doesn't do much to help them doing stuff like that.  Is this Leach 2.0?

[aztecskin]

Have to wait for the whole season to compare season stats fully. But again, I’m not saying I love the dude but that J am trying to be sensible and not just fire off hot takes. 

Last year Cal and FIU were awful and we allowed 1000 yards against them. Everyone was better against us compared to their season averages. That’s bad. 

This year TTU, South, Memphis have all shown the capability of doing this kind of thing. Wyoming (terrible), Tulsa (bad) were held down. We didn’t make bad better. 

FAU was improved but I’m thinking that was a little bit of their QB having a bye and getting better. 

So yeah, I’m looking at the numbers. Sure. Numbers, though. Plural. Can’t just point to one and say “number go down = bad” and think I’m all done. 

Obviously everyone is free to enjoy the football program however you like. Some people like to hate watch their own squad. Cool, man. Some people also like sardines. That ain’t for me. 

[DentonLurker]

32 minutes ago, aztecskin said:

Obviously everyone is free to enjoy the football program however you like. Some people like to hate watch their own squad. Cool, man. Some people also like sardines. That ain’t for me. 

This!

[BigWillie]

41 minutes ago, aztecskin said:

Obviously everyone is free to enjoy the football program however you like. Some people like to hate watch their own squad. Cool, man. Some people also like sardines. That ain’t for me. 

I don't think any of us hate watch. We are all die hard fans, otherwise we wouldn't be here. To me, it is just natural for fans and people in general to want to "fix" or point out what needs to change to WIN.

After a loss in a big game, which NT has had many over the years, it is not easy to come over here and talk moral victories and say, "oh, but we are improving". At this point in my fandom, and I know there are a lot of others that have seen many, many more years of this, I am more interested in what needs to be done to WIN. I am beyond my honeymoon phase.

[97and03]

1 hour ago, aztecskin said:

Have to wait for the whole season to compare season stats fully. But again, I’m not saying I love the dude but that J am trying to be sensible and not just fire off hot takes. 

Last year Cal and FIU were awful and we allowed 1000 yards against them. Everyone was better against us compared to their season averages. That’s bad. 

This year TTU, South, Memphis have all shown the capability of doing this kind of thing. Wyoming (terrible), Tulsa (bad) were held down. We didn’t make bad better. 

FAU was improved but I’m thinking that was a little bit of their QB having a bye and getting better. 

So yeah, I’m looking at the numbers. Sure. Numbers, though. Plural. Can’t just point to one and say “number go down = bad” and think I’m all done. 

Obviously everyone is free to enjoy the football program however you like. Some people like to hate watch their own squad. Cool, man. Some people also like sardines. That ain’t for me. 

There is only one number that matters and it is the scoreboard, hence my focus on the ppg defense numbers. 
And I don’t hate to watch my squad, hence me staying up until 4am to watch them - which means I really hate to watch them lose and be so tired I am wrecked the next day. As you like to say, Sunday is a whole like brighter when we win. Especially so when you get a handful of hours of sleep and your wife expects you to be a contributing human being. 

[Meangreen Fight]

28 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

To say that they are closer to a title defense is sarcasm, right?  Closer in terms of improving from absolute garbage to just plain garbage??

Could not agree with this part more.  This is like your kid coming home improving his grade from 35 (out  of 100) on his math test to 55.  Yes it is a big improvement but still a massive failure.  Memphis stopped themselves with a few unforced errors.   Our defense made some stops but I figure they hit 60 without their unforced errors.  Last year's defense they get 60+ regardless.  

[Green Lantern]

3 hours ago, aztecskin said:

Have to wait for the whole season to compare season stats fully. But again, I’m not saying I love the dude but that J am trying to be sensible and not just fire off hot takes. 

Last year Cal and FIU were awful and we allowed 1000 yards against them. Everyone was better against us compared to their season averages. That’s bad. 

This year TTU, South, Memphis have all shown the capability of doing this kind of thing. Wyoming (terrible), Tulsa (bad) were held down. We didn’t make bad better. 

FAU was improved but I’m thinking that was a little bit of their QB having a bye and getting better. 

So yeah, I’m looking at the numbers. Sure. Numbers, though. Plural. Can’t just point to one and say “number go down = bad” and think I’m all done. 

Obviously everyone is free to enjoy the football program however you like. Some people like to hate watch their own squad. Cool, man. Some people also like sardines. That ain’t for me. 

I’ll only speak for myself when I say I definitely don’t hate watch this team. I’ve just recently realized that I’ve now followed this program for 26, going on 27 years. I was 17 years old when I started my fandom. I’m a middle aged man now. 
 

All that to say - the reason I’m so directly critical about not accepting horrid defense is because for maybe the 2nd or 3rd time in that entire fandom, I feel like we’re close to actually being able to do something special. Caponi & this ill fitting scheme are getting in the way of this. I don’t want us to waste Chandler Morris, like what happened to Mason in the end.

Edited October 20, 2024 by Green Lantern

[BigWillie]

5 minutes ago, Green Lantern said:

I’ll only speak for myself when I say I definitely don’t hate watch this team. I’ve just recently realized that I’ve now followed this program for 26, going on 27 years. I was 17 years old when I started my fandom. I’m a middle aged man now. 
 

All that to say - the reason I’m so directly critical about not accepting horrid defense is because for maybe the 2nd or 3rd time in that entire fandom, I feel like we’re close to actually being able to do something special. Caponi & this I’ll fitting scheme are getting in the way of this. I don’t want us to waste Chandler Morris, like what happened to Mason in the end.

1000% this. Exactly how I feel.

[Hookset]

10 hours ago, aztecskin said:

Maybe means we can't just fire Caponi so quickly. Because maybe we don't know what we are talking about. What should we fire a coach for? I would say if he can't recruit, can't adapt, and cant show improvement. So far Caponi has recruited talent, adapted, and shown slight improvement. So I have to be okay with it based on my own criteria even if I don't think he's amazing. 

After the very first game with Caponi as DC I thought he needed to be fired immediately. The thought from Morris was to give him a chance to recruit his players. That happened and there was very little improvement. He has changed the base defense to a 3-4 and that’s been a little better. I just wonder if we can give him so much time for such a slow learning curve.

We also are NIL money poor compared to many other teams. I don’t think we can get “more” players in the next offseason.

[JT Hammons]

3 hours ago, Green Lantern said:

All that to say - the reason I’m so directly critical about not accepting horrid defense is because for maybe the 2nd or 3rd time in that entire fandom, I feel like we’re close to actually being able to do something special. Caponi & this ill fitting scheme are getting in the way of this. I don’t want us to waste Chandler Morris, like what happened to Mason in the end.

Well again it's the contracts that stipulate we had to keep Craponi.  He got a 2 year deal which in hindsight was dumb.

Agents drive this type of crap, basically setting the expectation that you can't get a good DC unless you are willing to give them a 2-year deal.

[Tommy Gadberry]

6 hours ago, 97and03 said:

Especially so when you get a handful of hours of sleep and your wife expects you to be a contributing human being. 

Ditto here with the old lady lol!

[greenminer]

Memphis went nuts (40+) on a pretty salty Navy defense.

Totally get the frustration with defense.  Personally, I'm going to hold off on any shit posting for at least a few more games.

Need more input

[aztecskin]

16 hours ago, Hookset said:

After the very first game with Caponi as DC I thought he needed to be fired immediately. The thought from Morris was to give him a chance to recruit his players. That happened and there was very little improvement. He has changed the base defense to a 3-4 and that’s been a little better. I just wonder if we can give him so much time for such a slow learning curve.

We also are NIL money poor compared to many other teams. I don’t think we can get “more” players in the next offseason.

I wrote about why I am "defending" Caponi so much in further detail in today's Morning After.

Short version: We have such a young defense. Eight regular contributors are underclassmen. A look at PFF's grades show you that here are few AAC highly graded players that are underclassmen. Among safeties? Evan Jackson is one. Everything can be better but there's also a very good chance that staying patient could pay off tremendously. And without NIL $$ to drastically improve I don't know that we have much other choice than patience. 

[817Fan]

Can someone tell me what is so antiquated about a four man front?

[Hookset]

15 minutes ago, aztecskin said:

I wrote about why I am "defending" Caponi so much in further detail in today's Morning After.

Short version: We have such a young defense. Eight regular contributors are underclassmen. A look at PFF's grades show you that here are few AAC highly graded players that are underclassmen. Among safeties? Evan Jackson is one. Everything can be better but there's also a very good chance that staying patient could pay off tremendously. And without NIL $$ to drastically improve I don't know that we have much other choice than patience. 

I agree we have a young defense. Unfortunately young players do make mistakes. This shouldn’t always be blamed on the coach (but a good coach will take the blame to protect a young player). 
My concern is can we keep the good developing players from leaving for more NIL money elsewhere?

If you want to run a complicated defensive scheme but you have a constantly overturning roster, should you run a simplified scheme that you can plug young players in and have more success early on?

[aztecskin]

43 minutes ago, 817Fan said:

Can someone tell me what is so antiquated about a four man front?

Nothing wrong with it and we do it, but the 3-4/3-3-5 are en-vogue (even with Kirby Smart, Nick Saban before he retired, and others) because of the versatility in defending the modern offenses. 

24 minutes ago, Hookset said:

I agree we have a young defense. Unfortunately young players do make mistakes. This shouldn’t always be blamed on the coach (but a good coach will take the blame to protect a young player). 
My concern is can we keep the good developing players from leaving for more NIL money elsewhere?

If you want to run a complicated defensive scheme but you have a constantly overturning roster, should you run a simplified scheme that you can plug young players in and have more success early on?

Our scheme isn't so complicated. 

Video on our good and bad in both the 3-high and 3-4 here - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4rSogymmZW6REsFe2OqnrAsOZLptYx0Y 

I also wrote about it in preseason: https://www.meangreennation.com/p/2024-season-preview-lets-talk-about?utm_source=publication-search 

We switched to the 3-4 because our linebackers were playing better, our safeties were hurt/being punished/ and the run game vs Tech looked like crap. 

Memphis runs a 3-high, and we sliced them up for 653 but they have a better line, and better linebackers. So watch them to get an idea of what our plan was. 

 

[UNTLifer]

On 10/19/2024 at 11:05 PM, BigWillie said:

Ridge is still our best player. Lone bright spot in a deep, deep chasm...

I'm going to disagree with this.

[keith]

1 hour ago, aztecskin said:

I wrote about why I am "defending" Caponi so much in further detail in today's Morning After.

Short version: We have such a young defense. Eight regular contributors are underclassmen. A look at PFF's grades show you that here are few AAC highly graded players that are underclassmen. Among safeties? Evan Jackson is one. Everything can be better but there's also a very good chance that staying patient could pay off tremendously. And without NIL $$ to drastically improve I don't know that we have much other choice than patience. 

I think that's the problem for us.  We don't have the luxury of patience or looking at year-over-year metrics as evidence of incremental improvement.  It's a win now world.  Every team from here on out will be bare little resemblance to the pervious year's team.  There will be some players that hang around for more than a season or two, but look at us this year.  Don't we have 77 new players or something like that?  What if we have similar turn-over numbers next year?  At what point is this no longer developing a program and is instead hobbling together a new team every year that must compete and win immediately? 

[BigWillie]

4 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

I'm going to disagree with this.

I meant on defense. Who is better? 

[BigWillie]

3 hours ago, keith said:

I think that's the problem for us.  We don't have the luxury of patience or looking at year-over-year metrics as evidence of incremental improvement.  It's a win now world.  Every team from here on out will be bare little resemblance to the pervious year's team.  There will be some players that hang around for more than a season or two, but look at us this year.  Don't we have 77 new players or something like that?  What if we have similar turn-over numbers next year?  At what point is this no longer developing a program and is instead hobbling together a new team every year that must compete and win immediately? 

Exactly this, which means that recruiting and coaching are #1.