From the desk of Jared Mosley - special update

[wardly]

Until recently good friend of mine was treasurer of the LSU Tiger Club . This is the alumni arm that raises funds for the Athletic Depart, who in return request release of those monies for approved expenditures . When LSU hired Baylor's women's basketball coach the response was "great, now we can lose several more millions in women's basketball."

[rcade]

On 6/11/2024 at 2:44 PM, UNTLifer said:

The coaches and AD's have made money because the programs they ran made money.

The same justification applies just as easily to the players.

I'm glad players are making some money. I will be gladder when there's a system in place that controls it better and discourages players from changing jerseys every season to chase dollars.

[Meangreen Fight]

On 6/11/2024 at 8:15 AM, DeepGreen said:

No, it is not a "necessary evil".  College football was just fine before this NIL bullsh*t.

That is also bullshit.  While I definitely share the frustration.  NIL was a BS response to blatant hypocrisy and cheating going on before it.  College athletics could have went a totally different direction with ethical fair practices instead of bowing at the alter of crony capitalism.   I can give a short list right off the top of my head.

1. Guaranteed 3 year scholarships if academic eligibility and general student code of conduct all students.

2. Cap on Adminstrator and Coaches salaries set by NCAA for D1 max by sport and cap by conferences.  

3. Free tickets to ALL current students that.  

4. All the biggest public universities that carry D1 sport play other in state D1 universities in a non-conference schedule (on a 5 year rotation or more frequent when not in same conference).  

5. Only real hardship transfers with scholarship are allowed during the first 2 years.  

6. Graduate transfers are walk on only
 

There a ton of other ideas that could have implemented to really run college sports as a non-profit organization with the revenue generated going back to the bottom line of the university.  They did not do that.  You can not have a functional complelling competitive league where the teams with most money manipulate the rules of the league, scheduling, and etc.   Yes here in Dallas it would be cool if Jerry Jones could create some kind of contract rule that would force Kansas City to trade Dak Prescott for Mahomes.  But it would suck for all the bottom 2/3 of the NFL.  It seems like the NCAA powers don't understand or care about the product on the field as a whole and eventually everyone will pay the price for that oversight.   

Edited June 16 by Meangreen Fight

[NT80]

15 hours ago, rcade said:

The same justification applies just as easily to the players.

I'm glad players are making some money. I will be gladder when there's a system in place that controls it better and discourages players from changing jerseys every season to chase dollars.

The players are not employees.   They are offered an educational scholarship to play sports.   It's a signed agreement, but nobody forces them to take a free education, or play a game in college.   Many walk-on at their own expense in hopes of gaining that scholarship.  

[Greenrex]

2 hours ago, Meangreen Fight said:

That is also bullshit.  While I definitely share the frustration.  NIL was a BS response to blatant hypocrisy and cheating going on before it.  College athletics could have went a totally different direction with ethical fair practices instead of bowing at the alter of crony capitalism.   I can give a short list right off the top of my head.

1. Guaranteed 3 year scholarships if academic eligibility and general student code of conduct all students.

2. Cap on Adminstrator and Coaches salaries set by NCAA for D1 max by sport and cap by conferences.  

3. Free tickets to ALL current students that.  

4. All the biggest public universities that carry D1 sport play other in state D1 universities in a non-conference schedule (on a 5 year rotation or more frequent when not in same conference).  

5. Only real hardship transfers with scholarship are allowed during the first 2 years.  

6. Graduate transfers are walk on only
 

There a ton of other ideas that could have implemented to really run college sports as a non-profit organization with the revenue generated going back to the bottom line of the university.  They did not do that.  You can not have a functional complelling competitive league where the teams with most money manipulate the rules of the league, scheduling, and etc.   Yes here in Dallas it would be cool if Jerry Jones could create some kind of contract rule that would force Kansas City to trade Dak Prescott for Mahomes.  But it would suck for all the bottom 2/3 of the NFL.

All solid ideas for sure...if only. Sadly, that ship done sailed.

[wardly]

1 hour ago, NT80 said:

The players are not employees.   They are offered an educational scholarship to play sports.   It's a signed agreement, but nobody forces them to take a free education, or play a game in college.   Many walk-on at their own expense in hopes of gaining that scholarship.  

When the athletic departments start paying players the NIL money they are in fact are employees. If memory serves one schools in a secondary east coast conference whose name escapes me have their players trying to form a union.

[Dannymacfan]

28 minutes ago, wardly said:

When the athletic departments start paying players the NIL money they are in fact are employees. If memory serves one schools in a secondary east coast conference whose name escapes me have their players trying to form a union.

Yes this is correct.  Ultimately the athletic departments will become the "Employer" and the athletes the "Employee".  The only issue I can see being an obstacle at this point is title 9.

[Meangreen Fight]

2 hours ago, NT80 said:

The players are not employees.   They are offered an educational scholarship to play sports.   It's a signed agreement, but nobody forces them to take a free education, or play a game in college.   Many walk-on at their own expense in hopes of gaining that scholarship.  

"Free Education" is a fallacy.  Especially when majority of it should be subsided by the state at public universities.  Public Colleges used to be affordable to working class without massive debt and poorest (but academically eligible) students could go virtually free.  Also the gap between starting pay for a college graduate and highschool graduate USED to justify the investment in a college degree.  Collectively as a society we have let the value of an education decline along with the value of labor.  What you are describing with walk ons hoping to earn a scholarship is an unpaid internship.  

Capitalism has many great side effects for soceity when implemented with solid guardrails.  "Unpaid Agreements" that on the surface appear primarily benefit the organization taking advantage of the most desperate people should be always critically reviewed, studied, and improved when possible.  The only IMPROVEMENT that seems to be happening is minimally complying with some concept of fairness while allowing the biggest brands to keep majority of revenue.  It seems that very few in power really care about academic/career development of the student athletes.  

If they really cared about the education of the student athletes then in conference revenue sharing would be directly tied to graduate rates and academic progress.  Also bonus credit for degrees valued the most to the current labor market should be considered.

All the current moves being made aren't about the student athletes.  They are only compromises try to continue to produce a good TV show and maximum revenue rolling in for the  "right brands". 

Edited June 16 by Meangreen Fight

[NorthTexasWeLove]

20 minutes ago, Meangreen Fight said:

"Free Education" is a fallacy.  Especially when majority of it should be subsided by the state at public universities.  Public Colleges used to be affordable to working class without massive debt and poorest (but academically eligible) students could go virtually free.  Also the gap between starting pay for a college graduate and highschool graduate USED to justify the investment in a college degree.  Collectively as a society we have let the value of an education decline along with the value of labor.  What you are describing with walk ons hoping to earn a scholarship is an unpaid internship.  

Capitalism has many great side effects for soceity when implemented with solid guardrails.  "Unpaid Agreements" that on the surface appear primarily benefit the organization taking advantage of the most desperate people should be always critically reviewed, studied, and improved when possible.  The only IMPROVEMENT that seems to be happening is minimally complying with some concept of fairness while allowing the biggest brands to keep majority of revenue.  It seems that very few in power really care about academic/career development of the student athletes.  

If they really cared about the education of the student athletes then in conference revenue sharing would be directly tied to graduate rates and academic progress.  Also bonus credit for degrees valued the most to the current labor market should be considered.

All the current moves being made aren't about the student athletes.  They are only compromises try to continue to produce a good TV show and maximum revenue rolling in for the  "right brands". 

First, higher education is subsudized by the government to/for the poor in the form of pell grants. Second, it shouldn't be. Kids in middle class families who "make too much", but can't afford to send their kids to college have the only avenue of high interest loans. Yet, poor families can get those subsidies and attend virtually for free. For all, or for none. Since, I believe my tax dollars should not be for all, then it should be for none. If middle class kids have to go get handicapped by loans then poor kids can, too. 

To get back on point, the moment any athletic department cuts a check directly to an athlete, student athletic fees are voided and should no longer exist. 

Edited June 16 by NorthTexasWeLove

[NT80]

5 hours ago, wardly said:

When the athletic departments start paying players the NIL money they are in fact are employees. If memory serves one schools in a secondary east coast conference whose name escapes me have their players trying to form a union.

They are not NOW employees.  If they want to be employed, then they would all have to be paid, and all have to fall under employment contracts and rules, which will not happen because we can't afford to pay ALL players.  That would include walk-ons, injured non-players, grey shirts, etc.   And drop their free education too since employees don't get free education.

[wardly]

First, when the NIL comes in house players will become employees. Second , we can afford to pay all players in specific sports , just not at the same salary. You know, like the real world. UNT will have a certain amount of money available for NIL payment, which we can call a salary cap, and allocate  those funds for specific sports, such as football and men's basketball. There will be a pecking order established as to who get how much based upon how many beans are in the pot, if you are a starter,at what position etc. Out biggest problem is getting donors to financially support projects such as expansion of athletic department facilities , donate to Mean Green Club, and also donate to NIL. I doubt you will get students to agree upon increasing fees to financially support athletics when they don't attend athletic events. Basically UNT is between a rock and a hard place financially . Just a thought. If the Big 12 can sell conference naming rights, such as "General Motors Football Conference ", then individual universities , perhaps needing conference approval, should be able to do the same. How does the H.E.B./U.N.T. football team sound? Go Grocers!

[rcade]

20 hours ago, NT80 said:

The players are not employees.   They are offered an educational scholarship to play sports.   It's a signed agreement, but nobody forces them to take a free education, or play a game in college.   Many walk-on at their own expense in hopes of gaining that scholarship.  

I was employed by The North Texas Daily as a student. Even if I had been going to school on scholarship, I would still have been an employee or independent contractor because UNT was paying me to do a job.

The requirements to be a college football or basketball player are much higher than a job like mine. They should be paid directly by schools and treated like employees even if that word isn't used to describe the relationship.

The argument that athletes are amateurs and scholarships are damn well enough compensation is past its sell-by date. Colleges, TV networks, coaches and boosters made the sports too lucrative to keep the actual product -- the players on the field -- from making any of the revenue.

[rcade]

13 hours ago, NT80 said:

And drop their free education too since employees don't get free education.

Some of them do. Many master's and PhD programs give their students free tuition and pay them a salary. They teach, research and perform other work for the department.

[wardly]

1 hour ago, rcade said:

I was employed by The North Texas Daily as a student. Even if I had been going to school on scholarship, I would still have been an employee or independent contractor because UNT was paying me to do a job.

The requirements to be a college football or basketball player are much higher than a job like mine. They should be paid directly by schools and treated like employees even if that word isn't used to describe the relationship.

The argument that athletes are amateurs and scholarships are damn well enough compensation is past its sell-by date. Colleges, TV networks, coaches and boosters made the sports too lucrative to keep the actual product -- the players on the field -- from making any of the revenue.

If UNT deducted Social security and taxes from your paycheck you were considered by them as an employee . If not, you were considered an independent contractor. UNT still exercised the same control over you but without contributed to F.I.C.A. The benefits afforded you as an employee depended upon the number of hours you worked which classified you as a full time or part time employee. I was an "independent contractor " for a medical device manufacturer as their distributor in North Central Texas, Oklahoma, and N.E. Louisiana for 30 years and I assure you that they controlled, directed, and treated us as employees . After WW 2 they got a ruling from the IRS which affirmed our independent contractor status. Since I treated my sales force in the same manner I obtained a "letter ruling " from the IRS which also ruled that my salesmen were independent contractors and not do any employee benefits such as insurance, 401K, etc. The hammer hanging over my head is that if one of my salesmen had successfully challenged the letter ruling and the IRS reversed their original decision I would have been libel for their uncollected taxes.  I had 2 salesmen declare bankruptcy while working for me and was fortunate that the IRS didn't come at me for a portion of their taxes owed. If I had it to do over again I would have made them employees from the beginning and adjusted their commissions to cover my additional expenses. I have been retired for 21 years but it is my understanding that it has become more difficult to obtain independent contractor status for what are essentially employees based upon their day to day control and direction by their employer.

 

[NT80]

2 hours ago, rcade said:

I was employed by The North Texas Daily as a student. Even if I had been going to school on scholarship, I would still have been an employee or independent contractor because UNT was paying me to do a job.

The requirements to be a college football or basketball player are much higher than a job like mine. They should be paid directly by schools and treated like employees even if that word isn't used to describe the relationship.

The argument that athletes are amateurs and scholarships are damn well enough compensation is past its sell-by date. Colleges, TV networks, coaches and boosters made the sports too lucrative to keep the actual product -- the players on the field -- from making any of the revenue.

You weren't recruited by UNT to be a Daily reporter.  You applied for the job just like a bookstore clerk in the union.   You could have tried out for the football team and possibly become a walk-on.  The requirements aren't anything higher than Daily reporter, it's just pure size and athletic ability.

[wardly]

1 hour ago, NT80 said:

You weren't recruited by UNT to be a Daily reporter.  You applied for the job just like a bookstore clerk in the union.   You could have tried out for the football team and possibly become a walk-on.  The requirements aren't anything higher than Daily reporter, it's just pure size and athletic ability.

If he answered a " help wanted" ad he was recruited.

[DeepGreen]

23 hours ago, wardly said:

When the athletic departments start paying players the NIL money they are in fact are employees. If memory serves one schools in a secondary east coast conference whose name escapes me have their players trying to form a union.

I could be wrong, but Connecticut comes to mind.

[NT80]

2 hours ago, wardly said:

If he answered a " help wanted" ad he was recruited.

A job posting is not the same as recruited in the context of college athletics.  They don't put out help wanted signs, they target specific players. 

[wardly]

5 minutes ago, NT80 said:

A job posting is not the same as recruited in the context of college athletics.  They don't put out help wanted signs, they target specific players. 

Agreed, but an employee is an employee is an employee. The IRS makes no distinction except for part time vs full time.

[NT80]

3 minutes ago, wardly said:

Agreed, but an employee is an employee is an employee. The IRS makes no distinction except for part time vs full time.

Athletes currently are not employees, full or part time.  They don't receive pay from the school.  NIL is a private contract for endorsement services, not school pay either.   I don't understand your debate with yourself?  

[NT80]

2 hours ago, DeepGreen said:

I could be wrong, but Connecticut comes to mind.

Dartmouth

https://ogletree.com/insights-resources/blog-posts/dartmouth-basketball-players-vote-to-be-first-college-athletes-represented-by-a-union/

[rcade]

5 hours ago, NT80 said:

You weren't recruited by UNT to be a Daily reporter.  You applied for the job just like a bookstore clerk in the union. 

Actually, I transferred from UT-Arlington to UNT after reaching out to the next editor and finding out whether she'd be interested in my girlfriend and I joining the newspaper. It was a weird situation that's not entirely different than an athlete coming because a coach offers them a spot. We were pissed off at UTA because of some shit that went down there.

In any case if recruitment is what stops an athlete from being an employee, then you are saying that walkons are employees.

I think you're overcomplicating things. Athletes perform work, their work generates revenue for schools, schools should pay them.

[NT80]

8 minutes ago, rcade said:

Actually, I transferred from UT-Arlington to UNT after reaching out to the next editor and finding out whether she'd be interested in my girlfriend and I joining the newspaper. It was a weird situation that's not entirely different than an athlete coming because a coach offers them a spot. We were pissed off at UTA because of some shit that went down there.

In any case if recruitment is what stops an athlete from being an employee, then you are saying that walkons are employees.

I think you're overcomplicating things. Athletes perform work, their work generates revenue for schools, schools should pay them.

Walkons still have to be wanted, in order to be on the team, not just because they show interest.  Athletes (now) agree to play either for love of the game (walk-on), or scholarship.  That is their pay.  The Band or Cheerleaders don't get paid, yet perform the same and help provide the entertainment that produces that revenue.  Producing revenue doesn't require payment to someone if they are willing to play a sport for the school for some other incentive.  

I also started college at UTA.  Soon found out it was a pitiful excuse for a University experience and transferred to NT.  I went to Denton High as a Freshman and Soph so I was familiar with the school and town.  NT just didn't have Engineering at the time, so I tried UTA.  

[Big Z]

This has to be on Jared's desk

 

[rcade]

8 minutes ago, NT80 said:

I also started college at UTA.  Soon found out it was a pitiful excuse for a University experience and transferred to NT.  

We can agree on that. Transferring from UTA to UNT was the best decision I ever made.