3-3-5???

[Hookset]

The 3-3-5 was created to stop pass happy Air Raid teams that don’t run the ball much at all.

 It requires big defensive linemen and big linebackers (we have neither) that can pressure the QB and stop the few runs that are attempted.

Nobody runs a pure Air Raid system anymore. Everyone runs a hybrid system with more running to take advantage of the “weakness” the 3-3-5 has with stopping the run.

So why do we think an outdated defensive scheme will work for us?

Before the responses “Wait until we recruit or hit the portal.”

We never were able to recruit for this system before and we couldn’t get any from the portal this year. 

[NorthTexasWeLove]

Indeed. NT and LB play has to be elite and deep. Safeties have to be thumpers AND ball hawks. You are lining up less people FURTHER away from the LOS...where games are won and lost. It's just not very good. Morris has been noted as to saying his offenses struggle with it and that's why he likes it. Well, uh, duh. 

[El Paso Eagle]

We could have done a much better job bringing in transfers more suited to the 3-3-5. One of the concerns voiced early on the fan boards was that we did not have the players on the current roster to run this formation. Hindsight is 20/20, but Morris and company failed to address this, and yesterday reflected this. Like the Dodge era, we saw what can happen with an inexperienced DC. Even Seth realized as an Air Raid tree coach, a little too late, it was better to find someone to run the Defense and stay out of their way. Sadly, we did not learn from Dodge or Seth and were mainly focused on the Offensive side of the ball. 

[MeanGreenGlory]

23 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Indeed. NT and LB play has to be elite and deep. Safeties have to be thumpers AND ball hawks. You are lining up less people FURTHER away from the LOS...where games are won and lost. It's just not very good. Morris has been noted as to saying his offenses struggle with it and that's why he likes it. Well, uh, duh. 

Seth said this as well when he brought in the 3-3-5.
 

It’s interesting that both offense-minded HCs brought in the 3-3-5 because it’s “difficult to game plan against.” Yet no other offense we play seems to have trouble picking it apart on game day. 
 

[Eagle71]

1 hour ago, Hookset said:

The 3-3-5 was created to stop pass happy Air Raid teams that don’t run the ball much at all.

 It requires big defensive linemen and big linebackers (we have neither) that can pressure the QB and stop the few runs that are attempted.

Nobody runs a pure Air Raid system anymore. Everyone runs a hybrid system with more running to take advantage of the “weakness” the 3-3-5 has with stopping the run.

So why do we think an outdated defensive scheme will work for us?

Before the responses “Wait until we recruit or hit the portal.”

We never were able to recruit for this system before and we couldn’t get any from the portal this year. 

Yep.  Morris better figure out a way to cover up for our leak LB corps or "3" will be our win limit, too.

[Mo Green]

3-3-5 doesn't help if you have no pass rush at all & you aren't stopping the run at ALL!

[GMG_Dallas]

I said it in another thread but we have 3 weak opponents next to see what Keith Smith, Marcus Moore and Rodney Green can do. Alobwede and Burleson are other big DL linemen we have. Doesn't hurt to see what they can do before conference play.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Relax y’all.  We’ve all heard from experts that our defense is going to be exactly like (re: just as effective as) Iowa St.!

Also, for those saying our defensive line is too small, you’re wrong about that.  We have plenty of size there.  Heck, we have SO MUCH size there, that we can have a 301lb-Enoch Jackson chilling on the bench.  

I like Wesloski, and think he can turn into a heckuva player, but we’re extremely weak at the LB position right now.  

Where the heck was Mazin?  We’re going to need way more from him.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

2 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Relax y’all.  We’ve all heard from experts that our defense is going to be exactly like (re: just as effective as) Iowa St.!

Also, for those saying our defensive line is too small, you’re wrong about that.  We have plenty of size there.  Heck, we have SO MUCH size there, that we can have a 301lb-Enoch Jackson chilling on the bench.  

I like Wesloski, and think he can turn into a heckuva player, but we’re extremely weak at the LB position right now.  

Where the heck was Mazin?  We’re going to need way more from him.

In Mazins defense, he is sort of a pass rush specialist. We did nothing with the box to get them to think about passing the football. I counted 4 and 5 man BOXES, not down linemen, BOXES over and over and over again. I was dumbfounded. 

[GMG_Dallas]

19 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Also, for those saying our defensive line is too small, you’re wrong about that.  We have plenty of size there.  Heck, we have SO MUCH size there, that we can have a 301lb-Enoch Jackson chilling on the bench.  

I like Wesloski, and think he can turn into a heckuva player, but we’re extremely weak at the LB position right now.  

We have size but do we have depth? Are we so talented up front that we can't stand to see what the guys on the bench have to offer for a few rotations per game? With the 4 game to redshirt rule, why not see what others can do? Same with the other newcomers on defense.

Wesloski definitely was impressive.

Edited September 3, 2023 by GMG_Dallas

[Okiefan]

The big issue with the 3-3-5 is how the responsibilities of the safeties have changed. This system is about gap control with the front 6 and the stacked safeties are supposed to come downhill and be the open field tacklers. That is why you saw the Mike And Will plugging gaps and spilling the play and then no one there or a missed tackle by the safeties. While the LB's missed some tackles, they also led the team in tackles on Saturday.

Additionally, we were in a 4 man front more than you realize yesterday but got zero pressure on the QB. All conference DE Mazin Richards had 2 tackles and struggled. The LB's were blitzing to bring pressure but that was ineffective.  

Watch the infamous 4th and 2 TD when we missed a million tackles. LB (19) is off the edge in the 4 man front. LB (32) plugs his gap which funnels the run to the opposite b gap and then the safety (11) comes downhill and misses the first chance at the line and then it turned into a dumpster fire of bad play. Safety makes his play and it is no more than a 1-2 yard gain.  

To be objective, success of the 3-3-5 really depends on the 3 safeties. Inside backers are not read first (which is typical in a 4-2-5) they are gap responsible first. This is one major difference in this set-up. The safeties must be aggressive on the run but not get beat over the top. That is a tough balance. 

 

 

   

[Hookset]

20 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Relax y’all.  We’ve all heard from experts that our defense is going to be exactly like (re: just as effective as) Iowa St.!

Also, for those saying our defensive line is too small, you’re wrong about that.  We have plenty of size there.  Heck, we have SO MUCH size there, that we can have a 301lb-Enoch Jackson chilling on the bench.  

I like Wesloski, and think he can turn into a heckuva player, but we’re extremely weak at the LB position right now.  

Where the heck was Mazin?  We’re going to need way more from him.

Iowa State has P5 size with the lineman and LB’s. We don’t. 
Mazin had success in a 4 man front scheme and he was used as a blitzing linebacker. Not as one of 3 down linemen that everyone knows is rushing.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

5 minutes ago, Okiefan said:

The big issue with the 3-3-5 is how the responsibilities of the safeties have changed. This system is about gap control with the front 6 and the stacked safeties are supposed to come downhill and be the open field tacklers. That is why you saw the Mike And Will plugging gaps and spilling the play and then no one there or a missed tackle by the safeties. While the LB's missed some tackles, they also led the team in tackles on Saturday.

Additionally, we were in a 4 man front more than you realize yesterday but got zero pressure on the QB. All conference DE Mazin Richards had 2 tackles and struggled. The LB's were blitzing to bring pressure but that was ineffective.  

Watch the infamous 4th and 2 TD when we missed a million tackles. LB (19) is off the edge in the 4 man front. LB (32) plugs his gap which funnels the run to the opposite b gap and then the safety (11) comes downhill and misses the first chance at the line and then it turned into a dumpster fire of bad play. Safety makes his play and it is no more than a 1-2 yard gain.  

To be objective, success of the 3-3-5 really depends on the 3 safeties. Inside backers are not read first (which is typical in a 4-2-5) they are gap responsible first. This is one major difference in this set-up. The safeties must be aggressive on the run but not get beat over the top. That is a tough balance. 

 

 

   

Yes. All very true and very accurate. But sliding down your normal slightly oversized 7 tech DE in a stack (which ours isn't - already undersized) to a 4 or 5 so you can walk an undersized LB up to a 7 or 9 to help set and spill is a weak and poor mans 4-man front. It's creating undersize people everywhere and when your 2 alley safeties rather dance than strike it, compounds the problems into problems at every level. 

[greenminer]

History of the 3-3-5.  Interesting that I cannot find a connection between Joe Lee Dunn and Rocky Long.

I first saw the 3-3-5 in ABQ, when Rocky Long had Brian Urlacher and was coming up with unique ways to use the most athletic guy on the team.  Urlacher became a star for this, a position called the "Lobo" which was allowed to roam pretty freely in the backfield.  Apparently, this idea of Long goes back to the early 1990s while he was at Oregon State...but that's via WIKi so take it FWIW.

Dunn was using it at Memphis in 1991.  Used it to combat this new idea of "spread" offense.

I don't like it anymore.  All the options to blitz sound exciting.  Like having that extra swiss army knife in your pocket, I'm okay with it as a package you have for a change of pace, but man! you need speed speed speed in the back 8, and incredible play at that NT position.  Most teams rarely have all of that.  Not at the level you need.

[aprice]

3 hours ago, Hookset said:

Iowa State has P5 size with the lineman and LB’s. We don’t. 
Mazin had success in a 4 man front scheme and he was used as a blitzing linebacker. Not as one of 3 down linemen that everyone knows is rushing.

This is why I think it'll work fine for conference play.  It's not suited to deal with a larger team with a strong run game.  That said, the game plan for cal was pretty bad.  I just hope they actually learned something and are capable of adjusting

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

15 minutes ago, aprice said:

This is why I think it'll work fine for conference play.  It's not suited to deal with a larger team with a strong run game.  That said, the game plan for cal was pretty bad.  I just hope they actually learned something and are capable of adjusting

But haven't you heard - we are in the P6! 

[NorthTexasWeLove]

39 minutes ago, aprice said:

This is why I think it'll work fine for conference play.  It's not suited to deal with a larger team with a strong run game.  That said, the game plan for cal was pretty bad.  I just hope they actually learned something and are capable of adjusting

I really hope you're right about conference play. It's difficult to envision after yesterday, but I hope you're into something

[DentonLurker]

The coaches can’t make tackles for them. A lot of those big plays we’re big because they didn’t tackle.

[Hookset]

4 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Yes. All very true and very accurate. But sliding down your normal slightly oversized 7 tech DE in a stack (which ours isn't - already undersized) to a 4 or 5 so you can walk an undersized LB up to a 7 or 9 to help set and spill is a weak and poor mans 4-man front. It's creating undersize people everywhere and when your 2 alley safeties rather dance than strike it, compounds the problems into problems at every level. 

We are undersized everywhere. At least you are plugging some gaps and have a chance to stop the run. 
then tell everyone you are recruiting bigger players and hitting the portal for some defensive size because you want to switch to that scheme. 
Play the best scheme for the players you have!!!

Switch the scheme after you have loaded up the players you need.

[Cr1028]

5 minutes ago, DentonLurker said:

The coaches can’t make tackles for them. A lot of those big plays we’re big because they didn’t tackle.

Exactly this. It doesn’t matter what scheme you throw out there if we miss tackles like we did yesterday. We had hands on the player within 5 yards on all of the long runs but missed the tackle. That is a fundamentals problem that no scheme can cover up.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

4 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Exactly this. It doesn’t matter what scheme you throw out there if we miss tackles like we did yesterday. We had hands on the player within 5 yards on all of the long runs but missed the tackle. That is a fundamentals problem that no scheme can cover up.

To a degree is doesn't matter, sure. I can agree with some of that. But these missed tackles weren't TFLs or stuffs, they were often 4-5-6-7 yards before square contact... that's scheme. And we'll continue to see it, imo. 

[TIgreen01]

8 hours ago, Hookset said:

We are undersized everywhere. At least you are plugging some gaps and have a chance to stop the run. 
then tell everyone you are recruiting bigger players and hitting the portal for some defensive size because you want to switch to that scheme. 
Play the best scheme for the players you have!!!

Switch the scheme after you have loaded up the players you need.

Preach!

Also…missed tackles were often guys diving at people or on a full sprint.  Good luck with that.  Rarely did I see us square up and then miss.  We aren’t getting guys in realistic positions to make routine plays.  We’re out of position diving at guys.

Edited September 4, 2023 by TIgreen01

[meangreenbob]

1 hour ago, aprice said:

This is why I think it'll work fine for conference play.  It's not suited to deal with a larger team with a strong run game.  That said, the game plan for cal was pretty bad.  I just hope they actually learned something and are capable of adjusting

What game plan? 

[MGNation92]

I really don't get Mazin Richards at DE in the 3-3-5.

He's 6'1 240 - Good size for an OLB or DE in a 4 man front, horrible size for a DE in a 3 man front. All three guys need to be 300+ to hold up the O-lineman THEN you have guys like Richards filling the gaps and making plays. Makes zero sense to me.

 

[Jonnyeagle]

27 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

I really don't get Mazin Richards at DE in the 3-3-5.

He's 6'1 240 - Good size for an OLB or DE in a 4 man front, horrible size for a DE in a 3 man front. All three guys need to be 300+ to hold up the O-lineman THEN you have guys like Richards filling the gaps and making plays. Makes zero sense to me.

 

It’s not his ideal position and he really struggled against those giant Cal tackles.