Our Programs True Potential?

GrayEagle · July 9, 2023

On 7/7/2023 at 6:50 PM, drex said:

Attendance is pathetic, but SMU is not any better.

While we do have similar attendance, SMU has less than 10,000 students and 40-50,000 alumni in the area while we have 44,000 students and around 300,000 alumni in the Metroplex. We should double their attendance without breaking a sweat (except that we don't have a facility large enough to handle even a small percentage of the total available).

NT80 · July 9, 2023

2 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Why do you think SMU has high academics? I am serious, I've been to both.

It depends on what courses you are taking, but to assume that more expensive means better academics is questionable.

By the way, I liked SMU. On a very limited very old sample, I thought SMU professors were better; but that is comparing grad to undergrad school. Majoring in accounting at NT was much harder than anything I had at SMU.

A big plus in favor of NT was the diversity and just the number of students that provided a much better social network. I also liked the college town atmosphere much more than University Park.

Frankly, I am not looking forward to NT playing SMU. SMU with NIL has an enormous advantage.

I don't think Smut has crap. But some PAC expansion predictors think they do.

NT80 · July 9, 2023

5 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

Personally, I think our marketing needs to be fought on two fronts. We have to generate Dallas media interest, so we can drive up our rating on ESPN. But we also need to target the cities and towns east, west, & north of Denton with local billboards and community involvement. Our alums in Decatur & Sherman and every small town within a 75-mile radius could really help fill our stadium on game days. Personally, I think we are more likely to draw them to our games, since they have fewer entertainment options than our alums in Dallas and Fort Worth. And, when people are watching our games they don't care where the fans came from, just that they are loud and making the game atmosphere exciting.

I agree untapped potential fans exist in smaller outlying towns.

I also bet there are Many college sports fans in the Metroplex that may not feel comfortable or welcomed on a Private School campus in Dallas and Ft. Worth. They would be welcomed in Denton!

As the only Public University in the DFW region offering FBS College Football we can and should represent the entire Metroplex Region, not just the rural towns on the outskirts.

DentonStang · July 9, 2023

I don't understand why everyone wants to put some historical or even metaphysical wrap around this topic.

Every school's potential is mostly the same, with some exception for extreme geography (Boise), etc.

The only thing that brings fans and attendance is winning.

The thing that brings winning is an administration that wants to spend resources, and more importantly provide curriculum and support programs and admissions policies etc.

Do that and recruit and win. Win enough and demonstrate financial commitment and get attention and move up in conference.

That's how everyone who has ever moved up has done it. Could be just about anyone. UNT could be Utah or TCU or UCF but has chosen not to be.

NIL is a potential wrinkle but we'll see how that plays out long term.

Edited July 9, 2023 by DentonStang

emmitt01 · July 9, 2023

10 hours ago, GrayEagle said:

While we do have similar attendance, SMU has less than 10,000 students and 40-50,000 alumni in the area while we have 44,000 students and around 300,000 alumni in the Metroplex. We should double their attendance without breaking a sweat (except that we don't have a facility large enough to handle even a small percentage of the total available).

How many times must I say this?

SMU is in the center of a city of 1.3 MILLION people.

Alumni base isn’t what is driving the attendance of football programs. Does anyone think 100,000 people in Tennessee’s stadium have a degree from there? Or that Clemson’s stadium is filled with Clemson grads? You think all those burnt orange clad folks actually have a Texas degree (or any degree)? Or that even Boise State hosts thousands and thousands of alumni on Saturdays? Nope, they draw from the community around them and a whole lot of bandwagoners.

We should have better attendance, no doubt. But SMU can’t draw flies when hundreds of thousands of folks could make a VERY short drive to their stadium. Hell, they even have a DART train that will drop people off across the street (technically highway). And yet still they struggle.

Edited July 9, 2023 by emmitt01

wardly · July 9, 2023

Winning did not increase attendance in men's basketball. Bowl games did not increase attendance in football. North Texas is a university that plays sports, not a "sports" university.

NT80 · July 9, 2023

2 hours ago, emmitt01 said:

How many times must I say this?

SMU is in the center of a city of 1.3 MILLION people.

Alumni base isn’t what is driving the attendance of football programs. Does anyone think 100,000 people in Tennessee’s stadium have a degree from there? Or that Clemson’s stadium is filled with Clemson grads? You think all those burnt orange clad folks actually have a Texas degree (or any degree)? Or that even Boise State hosts thousands and thousands of alumni on Saturdays? Nope, they draw from the community around them and a whole lot of bandwagoners.

We should have better attendance, no doubt. But SMU can’t draw flies when hundreds of thousands of folks could make a VERY short drive to their stadium. Hell, they even have a DART train that will drop people off across the street (technically highway). And yet still they struggle.

There is a defined difference in walking into Tennessee's stadium vs Smut's stadium without having a connection to either. It is belonging there. SMU is a "closed" society. They might as well put out a sign: invitation only, wealthy only, otherwise keep out!

NT80 · July 9, 2023

3 hours ago, DentonStang said:

I don't understand why everyone wants to put some historical or even metaphysical wrap around this topic.

Every school's potential is mostly the same, with some exception for extreme geography (Boise), etc.

The only thing that brings fans and attendance is winning.

The thing that brings winning is an administration that wants to spend resources, and more importantly provide curriculum and support programs and admissions policies etc.

Do that and recruit and win. Win enough and demonstrate financial commitment and get attention and move up in conference.

That's how everyone who has ever moved up has done it. Could be just about anyone. UNT could be Utah or TCU or UCF but has chosen not to be.

NIL is a potential wrinkle but we'll see how that plays out long term.

Winning is not the only thing that brings fans. It is the Opponents. You are who you associate with. UNT will draw fans for Texas Southern but will draw a lot more fans for Cal.

The chances to see a win are greater against Texas Southern, but the chance to see a win against a better opponent is the draw, not the actual winning. Cal and Vanderbilt don't often win in their conferences but their opponents draw home fans.

wardly · July 9, 2023

4 hours ago, NT80 said:

Winning is not the only thing that brings fans. It is the Opponents. You are who you associate with. UNT will draw fans for Texas Southern but will draw a lot more fans for Cal.

The chances to see a win are greater against Texas Southern, but the chance to see a win against a better opponent is the draw, not the actual winning. Cal and Vanderbilt don't often win in their conferences but their opponents draw home fans.

. A true "sports " university draws fans to see their team play regardless of the opponent. A university like North Texas just plays sports. Big difference.

Glory to the Green · July 9, 2023

27 minutes ago, wardly said:

. A true "sports " university draws fans to see their team play regardless of the opponent. A university like North Texas just plays sports. Big difference.

I attended UNT for the education. If I had chosen my school based solely on sports, I would have attended UT. My UNT music degree means a hell of a lot more than a UT music degree ….and I’m extremely proud of it. I don’t get the sports school slander on your part. What’s your endgame?

Mike Jackson · July 9, 2023

5 hours ago, NT80 said:

There is a defined difference in walking into Tennessee's stadium vs Smut's stadium without having a connection to either. It is belonging there. SMU is a "closed" society. They might as well put out a sign: invitation only, wealthy only, otherwise keep out!

It’s about the name also. Nothing about name SMU identifies it with DFW or Texas. It is an advantage TCU has over SMU. SMU could hypothetically move anywhere in Southern part if the USA and name still fit. Also they aren’t “the Methodist” university as there is Methodist University in North Carolina. There isn’t a lot to rally around and feel apart of even if you aren’t familiar with the wealthy exclusivity reputation of the school. When they are successful you don’t instantly feel like our community accomplished something just because you live in the DFW area. The schools successful previously mentioned have that. They have welcoming bandwagons community reputation. And we have more potential to do that because we are North Texas. And it far more likely your average citizen in DFW knows a UNT alum on a personal level than a SMU alum. I don’t think I would ever be rooting SMU in a huge bowl game or CFP like I have for Longhorns in 2005, or Texas Tech on occasion. That isn’t because I am a North Texas alumni is the distinct impression that many associated with that school wouldn’t really want me to go to school there, regardless of my academic record. And that is similar for Baylor from my perspective also.

In general the school needs to do a much better job capturing all of Denton County. I just had a reminder the other day how poorly we’ve done. A curb sign service painter put a flier on our door listing all the default options for curb painting. It was really disappointing to not see UNT/North Texas as an option with Boise State and Houston Cougars being options.

Mike Jackson · July 9, 2023

5 hours ago, NT80 said:

Winning is not the only thing that brings fans. It is the Opponents. You are who you associate with. UNT will draw fans for Texas Southern but will draw a lot more fans for Cal.

The chances to see a win are greater against Texas Southern, but the chance to see a win against a better opponent is the draw, not the actual winning. Cal and Vanderbilt don't often win in their conferences but their opponents draw home fans.

Cal has pretty bad attendance for a P5 school. Their stadium holds over 60,00 but in 2022 they only drew more than 40,000 once and that was against local rival Stanford. That is horrible considering they are the flagship university of the state most prestigious university system like our A&M or UT System. When Cal is decent their game attendance is just okay but getting over 60k is a rarity.

I think you will be a little disappointed with our turnout for the Cal game. They aren’t popular football product right now due to their poor performance. I put little stock in playing programs 2 hour plane trips away that don’t have national appeal. Cal, Vandy and several P5 whipping boy programs don’t draw well on the road.

NT80 · July 9, 2023

2 hours ago, wardly said:

. A true "sports " university draws fans to see their team play regardless of the opponent. A university like North Texas just plays sports. Big difference.

What is a true "sports" university? Even UT will get more fans for an Alabama game than they will for a Kansas game. It's not rocket science. If UNT had a Big12 schedule we would see a huge increase in attendance also. Opponent does and always will matter.

NT80 · July 10, 2023

1 hour ago, Mike Jackson said:

I think you will be a little disappointed with our turnout for the Cal game. They aren’t popular football product right now due to their poor performance. I put little stock in playing programs 2 hour plane trips away that don’t have national appeal. Cal, Vandy and several P5 whipping boy programs don’t draw well on the road.

There are plenty of Cal transplants now in the DFW area. I bet the Cal fans will at least double the Smu fans that came to Apogee. NT fans will show up too. First game of the season, first game in the AAC, first game under Morris, game against a P5 brand, too many reasons to not draw well.

Mike Jackson · July 10, 2023

22 minutes ago, NT80 said:

NT fans will show up too. First game of the season, first game in the AAC, first game under Morris, game against a P5 brand, too many reasons to not draw well.

I think it will draw well more for all those first than it being P5 Cal. Transplants from California are much more likely to follow other programs from the state. And transplants from Southern California region are very unlikely to care about the Cal Bears. I lived in Southern California state wide passion is very low. USC is their college team with UCLA as a distance second and everyone else competing to be a distance 3rd. If 4,000 people wearing actual Cal gear show up, I will be very surprised.

UNTLifer · July 10, 2023

3 hours ago, Glory to the Green said:

I attended UNT for the education. If I had chosen my school based solely on sports, I would have attended UT. My UNT music degree means a hell of a lot more than a UT music degree ….and I’m extremely proud of it. I don’t get the sports school slander on your part. What’s your endgame?

Not my question to answer, but he sure has ramped up the bitterness in the last year or so.

DentonStang · July 10, 2023

9 hours ago, NT80 said:

Winning is not the only thing that brings fans. It is the Opponents. You are who you associate with. UNT will draw fans for Texas Southern but will draw a lot more fans for Cal.

The chances to see a win are greater against Texas Southern, but the chance to see a win against a better opponent is the draw, not the actual winning. Cal and Vanderbilt don't often win in their conferences but their opponents draw home fans.

For sure. But since you're limited to what conference you are in and what OOC will agree to play you (this gets harder when you are a real threat) you can maximize attendance with what you have. No reason you couldn't be filling Apogee with undefeated seasons and proper marketing

Side.Show.Joe · July 10, 2023

Some of you on here are far too pessimistic. I remember being on this board 15 years ago and discussing how we might someday catch a program like Boise State. Some on here thought it was a bit, but I was serious. Now UNT pays our coaches as much or more than Boise. Last season, UNT came within 4 points of beating Boise in a bowl game. And, UNT is in the AAC, which is arguably a better conference situation than Boise State has. Things are changing for the better for UNT. Let's enjoy the fact that we are moving in the right direction, and our fortunes are improving.

NT80 · July 10, 2023

38 minutes ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

Some of you on here are far too pessimistic. I remember being on this board 15 years ago and discussing how we might someday catch a program like Boise State. Some on here thought it was a bit, but I was serious. Now UNT pays our coaches as much or more than Boise. Last season, UNT came within 4 points of beating Boise in a bowl game. And, UNT is in the AAC, which is arguably a better conference situation than Boise State has. Things are changing for the better for UNT. Let's enjoy the fact that we are moving in the right direction, and our fortunes are improving.

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GrayEagle · July 10, 2023

On 7/8/2023 at 5:07 PM, NT80 said:

More Local media exposure is what UNT needs, and not just lame Vito coverage. Improving the radio signal into DFW will help. The DFW market is tough to get local TV and newspaper coverage during Fall with Cowboys, Mavs, Rangers, Stars, Smut, TCU, Big12, et al all playing.

Our biggest asset is our size.... Size of student population, size of Alumni base, size of parent groups, employees, etc. Word of mouth is very important to spread the word. We have a better conference and better opponents to sell new fans this year!

Denton now has a population of 140,000 and Denton County is around 900,000. Plus we have nearly 45,000 students. The people are there; they just need some diligent marketing. I still think that you start with the students; then the alumni, then the townspeople, then the county. Hell, discount some tickets; especially in the wing zone. Be sure to sell the students at Orientation. We've got some real recruiters on this football staff. Let one or two of them talk it up. The other sports do well also. Start with selling the Freshmen; then keep it up every year. Give away tickets to youngsters if need be.

Cougar King · July 10, 2023

10 hours ago, NT80 said:

What is a true "sports" university? Even UT will get more fans for an Alabama game than they will for a Kansas game. It's not rocket science. If UNT had a Big12 schedule we would see a huge increase in attendance also. Opponent does and always will matter.

UT drew 105,213 for Bama

UT drew 95,202 for Kansas

So yes, you are correct as a matter of fact.

untphd · July 10, 2023

8 hours ago, DentonStang said:

For sure. But since you're limited to what conference you are in and what OOC will agree to play you (this gets harder when you are a real threat) you can maximize attendance with what you have. No reason you couldn't be filling Apogee with undefeated seasons and proper marketing

Just like at highland park?

greenminer · July 10, 2023

13 hours ago, Glory to the Green said:

I attended UNT for the education. If I had chosen my school based solely on sports, I would have attended UT. My UNT music degree means a hell of a lot more than a UT music degree ….and I’m extremely proud of it. I don’t get the sports school slander on your part. What’s your endgame?

I think wardly was reinforcing what NT80 was saying: that we don't have a population of sports fans. Our fanbase is a community of music majors, education majors, business majors, etc...

That it is not as simple as showing up to support your team no matter what. It's going to take a lot more than that, like opponents/scheduling, winning consistently, game day atmosphere, culture, etc...

Cooke County Kid · July 10, 2023

Oh ye of little faith…….. we will get there before it is all over, I hope.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Cooke County Kid

Zeleny' Orel · July 10, 2023

One of the biggest changes affecting attendance at college sporting events, especially football and basketball, is the ability to see the games on television. It doesn't take much effort. A hard-core fan will come to the games, but a casual one is not as likely to do so unless you make the game atmosphere/experience worth the effort. Game day and games must provide something the casual fan sees at entertaining enough to make the effort to go in person. Marketing and providing an enjoyable experience that outweighs just staying at home to watch a game is the key. It will take innovative and consistent effort. Winning helps but it takes a myriad of different approaches because different people respond in different ways. Hopefully the new AD leadership and staff have some new ideas and the fortitude to stick it out and start some new initiatives for current students, Denton area residents, and alums who have to take the time to drive a few hours or more to get to the game. GMG