More change coming? Are college football and basketball players considered employees? We could find out soon...

NT80 · May 19, 2023

If athletes -- this complaint applies only to football, men's basketball and women's basketball players -- are viewed as employees under the National Labor Relations Act, they would have the ability to organize and collectively bargain against schools for a larger share of the billions of dollars of revenue generated by college sports each year as well as other workplace protections.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/37680838/national-labor-relations-complaint-ncaa-pac-12-usc-unfair-labor-practices

El Paso Eagle · May 19, 2023

If this happens, you have to basically tear down the system and reset it as a professional league with salary caps.

DeepGreen · May 19, 2023

If college athletics, at whatever level, is unionized in any way, shape, or form, this fan will cease to follow college sports.

DentonStang · May 19, 2023

This would just gut college sports entirely

NorthTexasWeLove · May 19, 2023

It's the slippery slope that us anti-NIL people kept bringing up. The major sports in collegiate athletics are hanging in the balance. I hope better decisions are made moving forward. I won't hold my breath.

TheColonyEagle · May 19, 2023

"The NCAA believes making athletes into employees could lead to a system where athletes could be fired for poor performance..."

That's exactly what it will do. And it should.

Cut out athletic scholarships (unless you need it to negotiate), pay them like employees, treat them like employees.

"Sorry 2nd string OLineman....you missed too many blocks last week....gotta let you go." Then you get the transfer portal kid in to take his place.

Just get it over with.

The problem is these kids, a lot of these kids will be shocked when the 3% that are NFL bound get all the money and the breaks, and the 40th man on the roster gets cast aside when someone better comes along.

They're gonna want it both ways....can't have it both ways.

MeanGreenZen · May 20, 2023

22 hours ago, DeepGreen said:

If college athletics, at whatever level, is unionized in any way, shape, or form, this fan will cease to follow college sports.

Do you drive a car? Because everyone who built that car is in a union.

Mean Green 93-98 · May 20, 2023

19 minutes ago, MeanGreenZen said:

Do you drive a car? Because everyone who built that car is in a union.

Is that supposed to be a good analogy? Because we drive cars out of necessity. We sure don't spend hours and plunk down hard-earned dollars to watch carbuilding for entertainment. And a huge part of the attraction of college sports over professional sports is that you know (or at least you used to know) that college athletes weren't playing the game for the money.

Big Al GREEN · May 20, 2023

1 hour ago, MeanGreenZen said:

Do you drive a car? Because everyone who built that car is in a union.

Not true.

DeepGreen · May 20, 2023

11 hours ago, MeanGreenZen said:

Do you drive a car? Because everyone who built that car is in a union.

Gee, thanks for that useful information.

MeanGreenZen · May 20, 2023

9 hours ago, DeepGreen said:

Gee, thanks for that useful information.

Just trying to follow your logic. I, personally, am not a fan of unions, but whether or not there are unions doesn’t impact my consumption.
Do you boycott professional sports because their players are in unions?
Do you ignore television and movies because their actors and writers are in unions?

DeepGreen · May 21, 2023

1 hour ago, MeanGreenZen said:

but whether or not there are unions doesn’t impact my consumption.

Nor mine.

Mike Jackson · May 21, 2023

On 5/19/2023 at 8:06 AM, TheColonyEagle said:

"The NCAA believes making athletes into employees could lead to a system where athletes could be fired for poor performance..."

That's exactly what it will do. And it should.

Cut out athletic scholarships (unless you need it to negotiate), pay them like employees, treat them like employees.

"Sorry 2nd string OLineman....you missed too many blocks last week....gotta let you go." Then you get the transfer portal kid in to take his place.

Just get it over with.

The problem is these kids, a lot of these kids will be shocked when the 3% that are NFL bound get all the money and the breaks, and the 40th man on the roster gets cast aside when someone better comes along.

They're gonna want it both ways....can't have it both ways.

I just find it very interesting that very few see the irony of refining in coaches salaries and AD staff salaries more in line with professors. The coaches that built their colleges sport teams into to the revenue producing sports brand juggernauts of today, made middle or upper middle class salaries. I assume AD and staff salaries were closer to the median salary in the USA at the time. The sport wouldn’t be in this obvious conundrum if salaries grew at rate in line with or modestly above inflation. One head coach contract at a modest G5 program shouldn’t set you financially for life. And we are getting to the point that coordinators at P5 are set for life. I wish the other end of the spectrum would be addressed to make the “student athlete” model work and equitable. It would be a novel idea that these programs be “true” 501 3c. With the "profit" actually going back to the school and slowing down the rise in cost of education for your average student. Student athletes (especially before transfers without penalty, and NIL) were something between indentured servants or young craftsmen apprentice of the early industrial age. In a world were Coach Littrell is making around 150k per year and Coach Saban 750k-1 million as the top earner I would be all in the "get off my lawn" mindset. But the system is broken and conference realignment putting east coast and west coast teams in the same conference should give you a clue. It isn't "greedy spoiled players" that broke college football it's their bosses! Now the lawsuit is just to get those bosses to live up to the responsibility of having employees. So before you wag your finger at players for "wanting it both way" you need to have that same energy for all the pigs that have been getting fat at the trough for 30 years. In fact we would probably be in a much better place if dissolution of the CFA came with a mandate to recognize revenue sports players as employees. If I were a judge on the bench during that case that would have been my first question. Do you see the irony? You are suing for the right to get top dollar for the value of your product independently of the CFA but the bulk of the labor that produces the product isn't directly compensated with a salary based on the value of their labor.

Wag Tag · May 21, 2023

Are other professional sports unionized? The day of people making money because others are not is BS.

TheColonyEagle · May 22, 2023

On 5/21/2023 at 11:01 AM, Mike Jackson said:

I just find it very interesting that very few see the irony of refining in coaches salaries and AD staff salaries more in line with professors. The coaches that built their colleges sport teams into to the revenue producing sports brand juggernauts of today, made middle or upper middle class salaries. I assume AD and staff salaries were closer to the median salary in the USA at the time. The sport wouldn’t be in this obvious conundrum if salaries grew at rate in line with or modestly above inflation. One head coach contract at a modest G5 program shouldn’t set you financially for life. And we are getting to the point that coordinators at P5 are set for life. I wish the other end of the spectrum would be addressed to make the “student athlete” model work and equitable. It would be a novel idea that these programs be “true” 501 3c. With the "profit" actually going back to the school and slowing down the rise in cost of education for your average student. Student athletes (especially before transfers without penalty, and NIL) were something between indentured servants or young craftsmen apprentice of the early industrial age. In a world were Coach Littrell is making around 150k per year and Coach Saban 750k-1 million as the top earner I would be all in the "get off my lawn" mindset. But the system is broken and conference realignment putting east coast and west coast teams in the same conference should give you a clue. It isn't "greedy spoiled players" that broke college football it's their bosses! Now the lawsuit is just to get those bosses to live up to the responsibility of having employees. So before you wag your finger at players for "wanting it both way" you need to have that same energy for all the pigs that have been getting fat at the trough for 30 years. In fact we would probably be in a much better place if dissolution of the CFA came with a mandate to recognize revenue sports players as employees. If I were a judge on the bench during that case that would have been my first question. Do you see the irony? You are suing for the right to get top dollar for the value of your product independently of the CFA but the bulk of the labor that produces the product isn't directly compensated with a salary based on the value of their labor.

Not sure I followed that....

But if a coach doesn't perform....they get fired. If a university doesn't want to pay $10 million a year, they don't have to, they just won't get or keep a Nick Saban or Kirby Smart. If the number one recruit in the country is worth $10 million a year...he'll get $10 million a year. He doesn't have to play for "free."

How is that a "get off my lawn" mindset? Plus I'm not wagging my fingers....I just think it's naive to think these players aren't employees. Of course they are. Let's just stop with the "student" charade. I say just make them officially employees, get rid of athletic scholarships. Let the kids negotiate that. Not all of them want to go to class anyway and a degree isn't why they're there.

Let's just get it over with already.

I'm not even sure you and I disagree here.

What exactly are you advocating for? Coaches make too much money? Based on what?

NT80 · May 22, 2023

1 hour ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I say just make them officially employees, get rid of athletic scholarships. Let the kids negotiate that. Not all of them want to go to class anyway and a degree isn't why they're there.

Student-athletes are not employees. They are in college to get a college education. Their school is free per the agreement they sign to play scholarship sports.

Business students are not employees either, same with art, music, education majors, etc. It doesn't matter what their professors make for a salary just like it doesn't matter what a sport coach makes.

.........................................................................................................................

"Do many NCAA student-athletes go on to play professionally?

Fewer than 2 percent of NCAA student-athletes go on to be professional athletes. In reality, most student-athletes depend on academics to prepare them for life after college. Education is important. There are more than 460,000 NCAA student-athletes, and most of them will go pro in something other than sports."

https://www.nfhs.org/media/886012/recruiting-fact-sheet-web.pdf

cousin oliver · May 22, 2023

6 minutes ago, NT80 said:

Student-athletes are not employees. They are in college to get a college education. Their school is free per the agreement they sign to play scholarship sports.

Business students are not employees either, same with art, music, education majors, etc. It doesn't matter what their professors make for a salary just like it doesn't matter what a sport coach makes.

.........................................................................................................................

"Do many NCAA student-athletes go on to play professionally?

Fewer than 2 percent of NCAA student-athletes go on to be professional athletes. In reality, most student-athletes depend on academics to prepare them for life after college. Education is important. There are more than 460,000 NCAA student-athletes, and most of them will go pro in something other than sports."

https://www.nfhs.org/media/886012/recruiting-fact-sheet-web.pdf

Doesn’t seem fair coaches and administrators get to make millions and student athletes are supposed to just get books and lodging and tuition.

NT80 · May 23, 2023

3 hours ago, cousin oliver said:

Doesn’t seem fair coaches and administrators get to make millions and student athletes are supposed to just get books and lodging and tuition.

Coaches and administrators didn't make millions in college either when they were students.

It's called a JOB, after getting the degree in college.

NT93 · May 23, 2023

5 hours ago, cousin oliver said:

Doesn’t seem fair coaches and administrators get to make millions and student athletes are supposed to just get books and lodging and tuition.

I believe you failed to mention the two most important things these students athletes are getting: an education and lots of networking connections.

Mike Jackson · May 23, 2023

23 hours ago, cousin oliver said:

Doesn’t seem fair coaches and administrators get to make millions and student athletes are supposed to just get books and lodging and tuition.

It isn’t fair and hypocritically so in light of the ridiculous conference realignment going on and FBS head coach salaries on par with NFL head coach salaries. If it weren’t a for profit endeavor I believe conferences would still be small and regional providing the best conditions for EDUCATION of the students who won’t go on to be pros. The fans have never clamored for realignment they campaigned for a playoff. If it were about education, students, athletes and fan experience we would have had a playoff 40 years ago and the SWC might still be together (maybe with UNT a member of it). They complain about the players wanting it both ways but it is the leaders of these programs have been getting both ways since the first coach started making 1 million per year adjusted for inflation.

On 5/22/2023 at 4:23 PM, TheColonyEagle said:

What exactly are you advocating for? Coaches make too much money? Based on what?

So Jim Harbaugh is going to get paid as much per year as 70 University of Michigan professors, or 250 clerical employees, or a nearly infinite number of adjuncts. This seems . . . disturbing. ( https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2014/12/brief-history-college-football-coaching-salaries-context-new-gilded-age

— I didn’t need lawyer blog to form that opinion this was just the first example of why a scholarship isn’t sufficient compensation. They put all these regulations and limits on the income/benefits student athletes can receive but none on coaches. And Coaches who don’t keep their job long if they are not able to recruit some of the best players. (But they keep 100% of contracted future salary if they get fired)

TheColonyEagle · May 23, 2023

7 minutes ago, Mike Jackson said:

So Jim Harbaugh is going to get paid as much per year as 70 University of Michigan professors, or 250 clerical employees, or a nearly infinite number of adjuncts. This seems . . . disturbing. ( https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2014/12/brief-history-college-football-coaching-salaries-context-new-gilded-age

— I didn’t need lawyer blog to form that opinion this was just the first example of why a scholarship isn’t sufficient compensation. They put all these regulations and limits on the income/benefits student athletes can receive but none on coaches. And Coaches who don’t keep their job long if they are not able to recruit some of the best players. (But they keep 100% of contracted future salary if they get fired)

Are any of those professors as much in demand as Jim Harbaugh?

Mike Jackson · May 24, 2023

1 hour ago, TheColonyEagle said:

Are any of those professors as much in demand as Jim Harbaugh?

🙄 No but Harbaugh doesn’t drive Michigan football attendance or gets them a bigger base cut of the money from the Big 10 media deal just like none of those professors singularly drive Michigan student enrollment. And isn’t just Harbaugh the average salary for an FBS head coach is well over 1.5 million dollars a year and most guaranteed contract are 5 years or more. Michigan Football generates a ton of revenue regardless of if there is a 50 year old coach with NFL experience at the helm or a first time head coach in his 30s. That demand argument in theoretical vacuum has always be intellectually lazy. The fact is if you are going put an artificial limit on player benefits/income it hypocritical to defend huge coach contract without limits citing "demand".

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mike Jackson

TheColonyEagle · May 24, 2023

1 hour ago, Mike Jackson said:

🙄 No but Harbaugh doesn’t drive Michigan football attendance or gets them a bigger base cut of the money from the Big 10 media deal just like none of those professors singularly drive Michigan student enrollment. And isn’t just Harbaugh the average salary for an FBS head coach is well over 1.5 million dollars a year and most guaranteed contract are 5 years or more. Michigan Football generates a ton of revenue regardless of if there is a 50 year old coach with NFL experience at the helm or a first time head coach in his 30s. That demand argument in theoretical vacuum has always be intellectually lazy. The fact is if you are going put an artificial limit on player benefits/income it hypocritical to defend huge coach contract without limits citing "demand".

I don’t understand why you’re arguing with me. I don’t think there should be any limit to what players can make. They should have the same opportunity as coaches to make as much money as they can (and they do now. But if they were seen as employees they would have a better chance maybe?) as for professors. Who’s the best professor in the country? Dr SoAndSo? If Dr SoAndSo goes out and says “for $10 million per year, I’ll come work at your university” and schools battle it out to get him for $10 million per year. I’m all about it.

why is this so hard?

Are you ok with the NCAA getting rid of the rule that an athletic scholarship has to be honored if the player gets cut for performance? Or a new coach comes in?

If not. why not?

chomp · May 24, 2023

In the same way that I couldn't argue with the idea that players should be able to earn whatever they can through NIL, I find it just as hard to argue that players are not employees who should be able to market their services for what the market will pay.

Having said that, if players are employees open to the highest bidder with little actual connection to the universities that they play for, what exactly is the point of college athletics? If I'm going to pay to watch a paid employee throw a football or shoot a basketball, why should I choose a college game over a professional game? In the past, I spent my money on college sports because there was at least the illusion that the players from my school attended the same school that I did or were students in the classes that I taught. There was a shared university experience that connected players and alumni across decades. Once that is gone, aren't I just left with paying money to watch someone who just agreed to get paid to wear a particular college jersey?

TheColonyEagle · May 24, 2023

4 hours ago, chomp said:

In the same way that I couldn't argue with the idea that players should be able to earn whatever they can through NIL, I find it just as hard to argue that players are not employees who should be able to market their services for what the market will pay.

Having said that, if players are employees open to the highest bidder with little actual connection to the universities that they play for, what exactly is the point of college athletics? If I'm going to pay to watch a paid employee throw a football or shoot a basketball, why should I choose a college game over a professional game? In the past, I spent my money on college sports because there was at least the illusion that the players from my school attended the same school that I did or were students in the classes that I taught. There was a shared university experience that connected players and alumni across decades. Once that is gone, aren't I just left with paying money to watch someone who just agreed to get paid to wear a particular college jersey?

Isn’t that pretty much where we are or quickly headed?