New Basketball Arena proposed on Light the Tower Masterplan update

[keith]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:08 PM, wardly said:

Define "recently". We have averaged only about 4,000 fans per game with winning teams the past few years. I would like for us to build a new women's soft ball park where our other dedicated athletic facilities are and use their old park and surrounding area for football game parking.

We struggle with attendance when school is not in session.  We did better when the spring semester resumed.  Looking at just those games we averaged 4,525 including the two post-season games.  We had a low of 3,386 on 3/15 against Texas State in the first round of the NIT and a high of 8,522 against LaTech.  We've shown improvement this year on the attendance front so far.  Let's hope it keeps up.   

We need better outreach to the local community for home games when school is not in session as those are the lowest attended of the season.  

[greenminer]

46 minutes ago, wardly said:

Against whom,when,where, how?

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game/_/gameId/401372721

[Screaching Eagle]

I was impressed by UTA’s environment. It was really loud and the game production was really professional. I think the reason why it is so nice though is because the Dallas wings play there. That’s our local WNBA team for those who might not know. I’m sure the stadium production has to be top notch nice since that’s their home court. I think they host comedy shows and concerts there too
 

[Green Otaku]

1 hour ago, keith said:

We had 8,522 for a regular season C-USA game last year, so at 6,000 to 7,000 we would have turned away 1,522 to 2,522 fans/potential season ticket holders.

We all know that 1 game was an outlier. It was to clinch the regular season championship, senior night, and the last home game of the season. The game 2 nights before that had 4,100. We all complained last year about the low attendance for a team that up to that point had 4 losses. Let's be honest as well, we know how counting works with season ticket holders, if you were there can you say there were only 1,500 empty seats in the Pit?

[wardly]

3 hours ago, keith said:

We had 8,522 for a regular season C-USA game last year, so at 6,000 to 7,000 we would have turned away 1,522 to 2,522 fans/potential season ticket holders.

College football and basketball need season ticket holders who are making a financial commitment to support a specific program for a season. A 10,000 seat basketball venue which averages only 4,000 per game is probably less likely to sell more season tickets than a 6,000 seat arena averaging the same 4,000 butts in the seats. If you know a game is never going to be sold out in the Super Pitt why make a commitment for the season when you don't have to in order to guarantee a ticket.However, if the venue is 5,000 or so the same 4,000 average attendance means that you need to participate in some type of season ticket package if you want a decent seat. The University of Texas at Austin moved from an 18,000 seat venue to one about 45% smaller at 10,000 seating, and they have nationally ranked teams in a much larger city and greater student enrollment. [ Plus I think they know what they are doing and am not quite sure we do]

[p_phelps]

We need a new weight room before a new arena. 

[keith]

15 hours ago, Green Otaku said:

We all know that 1 game was an outlier. It was to clinch the regular season championship, senior night, and the last home game of the season. The game 2 nights before that had 4,100. We all complained last year about the low attendance for a team that up to that point had 4 losses. Let's be honest as well, we know how counting works with season ticket holders, if you were there can you say there were only 1,500 empty seats in the Pit?

Can't do anything about ticket counting, just sharing the data provided by the AD.  The AD reported only 2,409 in attendance for the 1/1 Rice game last year, is that inaccurate too?  The positive message, is that we actually did have a very large crowd for a C-USA regular season game.  It demonstrated that It can be done.  It was like 2 games in 1 for us revenue-wise.  Through the first 8 home games, we've seen a 12% increase in average attendance.  Going into next year, along with some of our current C-USA friends, we will have a more attractive home conference schedule which should help drive attendance growth even further (that's the theory anyway or maybe it's winning or it's a new stadium or arena - we've heard all the excuses over the years).  

[keith]

13 hours ago, wardly said:

College football and basketball need season ticket holders who are making a financial commitment to support a specific program for a season. A 10,000 seat basketball venue which averages only 4,000 per game is probably less likely to sell more season tickets than a 6,000 seat arena averaging the same 4,000 butts in the seats. If you know a game is never going to be sold out in the Super Pitt why make a commitment for the season when you don't have to in order to guarantee a ticket.However, if the venue is 5,000 or so the same 4,000 average attendance means that you need to participate in some type of season ticket package if you want a decent seat. The University of Texas at Austin moved from an 18,000 seat venue to one about 45% smaller at 10,000 seating, and they have nationally ranked teams in a much larger city and greater student enrollment. [ Plus I think they know what they are doing and am not quite sure we do]

To test your theory, we could just close off the upper seating of the Super Pit and artificially restrict capacity that way.  It would be a lot less expensive than spending $50+M to find out we can't draw more than 5,000.

[Wag Tag]

40 minutes ago, keith said:

To test your theory, we could just close off the upper seating of the Super Pit and artificially restrict capacity that way.  It would be a lot less expensive than spending $50+M to find out we can't draw more than 5,000.

That is still empty space. A smaller venue could create a loud and exciting venue. SMU could be an example.

[wardly]

55 minutes ago, keith said:

To test your theory, we could just close off the upper seating of the Super Pit and artificially restrict capacity that way.  It would be a lot less expensive than spending $50+M to find out we can't draw more than 5,000.

I asked R.V. to do that a decade ago. His concert was that some people liked to sit high . I attended NTSU in the early 60's when games were played in the Men's Gym[ aka The Pitt] . We were at the bottom of MVC but had a great player, John Savage. The games seem to be always packed, primarily by students. I don't think the gym held more than a few thousand , but at that time North Texas was known as a commuter school, had one men's dorm [West Dorm], and about 10,000 students . Basically the demand was greater than the supply, which is a great problem to have. Having said that, there were no computers, internet, nor streaming services. We had 3 movie theaters on the square plus a drive in,  ABC,NBC,and CBS in a dry county so not as many entertainment options as their are now.At present it looks like more non students attend than students which is a starting point for improvement. This is actually something of a mute point for me because at my age the chances of me attending a UNT basketball game is a new venue are slim and none, and as they say "Slim just left town.'

[DentonLurker]

For me, the Super Pit is a fine but not great venue. It leaves a lot to be desired as far as modern amenities go. If this program is going to keep the growth trajectory most of us want, we're going to have to address the SP and the joke of a practice facility we have right now. My priority list for Athletics facilities is 1- AC Expansion, 2- New Super Pit/BB practice facility, 3-Softball Modernization/Expansion, 4- Literally everything else

[rojomojo]

12 minutes ago, DentonLurker said:

For me, the Super Pit is a fine but not great venue. It leaves a lot to be desired as far as modern amenities go. If this program is going to keep the growth trajectory most of us want, we're going to have to address the SP and the joke of a practice facility we have right now. My priority list for Athletics facilities is 1- AC Expansion, 2- New Super Pit/BB practice facility, 3-Softball Modernization/Expansion, 4- Literally everything else

If we can keep the arena east of 1-35, I am 100 percent committed to whatever they do

[DentonLurker]

6 minutes ago, rojomojo said:

If we can keep the arena east of 1-35

Meh, I don't think it matters which side of the interstate it's on

[UNTcrazy727]

16 hours ago, wardly said:

College football and basketball need season ticket holders who are making a financial commitment to support a specific program for a season. A 10,000 seat basketball venue which averages only 4,000 per game is probably less likely to sell more season tickets than a 6,000 seat arena averaging the same 4,000 butts in the seats. If you know a game is never going to be sold out in the Super Pitt why make a commitment for the season when you don't have to in order to guarantee a ticket.However, if the venue is 5,000 or so the same 4,000 average attendance means that you need to participate in some type of season ticket package if you want a decent seat. The University of Texas at Austin moved from an 18,000 seat venue to one about 45% smaller at 10,000 seating, and they have nationally ranked teams in a much larger city and greater student enrollment. [ Plus I think they know what they are doing and am not quite sure we do]

Thank you for explaining this so well. Sellouts are a good thing! You want people turned away because that makes it more likely they will purchase season tickets. It also allows you to charge higher ticket prices. 

Playing in a massive arena that you can never fill devalues the importance of season tickets and limits what you can charge. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by UNTcrazy727

[Green Otaku]

3 hours ago, keith said:

Can't do anything about ticket counting, just sharing the data provided by the AD.  The AD reported only 2,409 in attendance for the 1/1 Rice game last year, is that inaccurate too?  The positive message, is that we actually did have a very large crowd for a C-USA regular season game.  It demonstrated that It can be done.  It was like 2 games in 1 for us revenue-wise.  Through the first 8 home games, we've seen a 12% increase in average attendance.  Going into next year, along with some of our current C-USA friends, we will have a more attractive home conference schedule which should help drive attendance growth even further (that's the theory anyway or maybe it's winning or it's a new stadium or arena - we've heard all the excuses over the years).  

 

The reason I brought up numbers is because of your post saying we would be losing 1,500-2500 fans for a game like LA Tech, and IMO wouldn't be that high. I would guess a 7k arena would have been able to accommodate the crowd from that night. 

I would hope attendance improves in the AAC, but at the end of the year we had ACC powerhouse Virginia AT the Super Pit and only pulled in 4,800 fans for an NIT knock out game. How much better of a team do you need to get people excited? 

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, DentonLurker said:

Meh, I don't think it matters which side of the interstate it's on

It does when students are too lazy to walk an extra 5 minutes.

[keith]

2 hours ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

Thank you for explaining this so well. Sellouts are a good thing! You want people turned away because that makes it more likely they will purchase season tickets. It also allows you to charge higher ticket prices. 

Playing in a massive arena that you can never fill devalues the importance of season tickets and limits what you can charge. 

By this logic we should build a 4,000 seat capacity arena.

Edited January 26, 2023 by keith

[keith]

2 hours ago, DentonLurker said:

Meh, I don't think it matters which side of the interstate it's on

Students are going to walk further, at night, in the dark (and possibly cold)?

[DentonLurker]

I don't buy that a student has any intention of coming if they're deciding not to come because the new arena is 0.5 miles further.

[Matt from A700]

22 hours ago, Screaching Eagle said:

I was impressed by UTA’s environment. It was really loud and the game production was really professional. I think the reason why it is so nice though is because the Dallas wings play there. That’s our local WNBA team for those who might not know. I’m sure the stadium production has to be top notch nice since that’s their home court. I think they host comedy shows and concerts there too
 

UTA's emcee is the one who also does the same for the Wings and the Panther City Lacrosse Club at Dickies Arena. I believe the sideline reporter is also shared for all three teams with Bally Sports.

[keith]

2 hours ago, Green Otaku said:

 

The reason I brought up numbers is because of your post saying we would be losing 1,500-2500 fans for a game like LA Tech, and IMO wouldn't be that high. I would guess a 7k arena would have been able to accommodate the crowd from that night. 

I would hope attendance improves in the AAC, but at the end of the year we had ACC powerhouse Virginia AT the Super Pit and only pulled in 4,800 fans for an NIT knock out game. How much better of a team do you need to get people excited? 

The TexasSt game was in the middle of Spring Break and the UVA game was the Sunday at the end of Spring Break.  I suspect that may have affected attendance.  I don't recall what the student turnout was for that game.

Does anyone know how many season tickets are sold for Men's Basketball?

I don't know what the right answer is, but whatever we build we need to be prepared for it to be the home for basketball for the next 50 years as that seems to be the life expectancy for UNT athletic venues.

[keith]

1 hour ago, DentonLurker said:

I don't buy that a student has any intention of coming if they're deciding not to come because the new arena is 0.5 miles further.

1 mile total and uphill both ways I'm told.

[wardly]

5 hours ago, keith said:

By this logic we should build a 4,000 seat capacity arena.

Well we could go back to the Men's gym if its available.

[CMJ]

Doesn't look like a ton of empty seats to me.  Definitely over 7K to my eyes.

 

[Green Otaku]

3 hours ago, CMJ said:

Doesn't look like a ton of empty seats to me.  Definitely over 7K to my eyes.

 

Really good turn out and thank you for the pic. I think it backs up what I was saying though, I don't think there's only 1,500 empty seats left. If you zoom in you can see a lot of the empty season ticket seats that have the white ribbon on them.