Question for the board...

Coffee and TV · November 17, 2022

18 hours ago, MrAlien said:

Everyone in the forum seems want: G5 coach coming off an 8 win season, with a bowl victory, and a G5 championship, for $2 Million..... not going to happen!

Everyone seems to assume that UNT willing to spend what ever it takes to turn this program into an AAC title contender. There is not indication that will happen, in fact that has never happened.

"Better things aren't possible!"

You should work for the DNC

Edited November 17, 2022 by Coffee and TV

meaniegreenie · November 17, 2022

20 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Back-to-back 9-win seasons with a CCG appearance, 3 straight bowls, annihilating Arkansas at their place with the viral Peter Pan play (I don't care how bad they were)... after the long drought we were in beforehand, it sure didn't feel like overpaying. That was the going rate if we wanted to keep a coach who was succeeding and being courted by P5s. I have no idea what happened, but the HC we've had the past 4 seasons has not been the same one from the first 3.

I don't know about you, but I'd like for the new guy to be at that same level (the 9-win, P5-courting level). There's no reason why we should go down in pay. Why do that?

I think your answer involves Graham Harrell and Mason Fine.

UNT78 · November 17, 2022

UNT is going to the AAC next year, 10 times the revenue we're receiving in C-USA or the MWC...recruit, hire, train, develop and win! Don't think Seth is our guy long term...If he wins out, including the conference championship, he gets to stay one more year, if not, he's gone; we cut our losses and get ready for next year!

keith · November 17, 2022

Well, at least a couple of you were able to follow the parameters of the original request. I realize things often veer off course, but this wasn't intended to be an analysis (or basing) of our current HC, grading our recent history, candidate discussion, pay, etc.

Assume you are king for a day and you are hiring a new HC for North Texas and you tell him he has 4 years and at the end of year 4 you will review his *conference* W-L record and conference championship record. You tell him, it must be <fill in the blank> or we will part ways. It's not realistic or reasonable to expect to be undefeated over 4 years and win 4 conference championships. So what is it? As an example, if he wins one game in year 1, goes .500 in year two, makes it and wins a conference championship in year 3 and then follows it up with a sub .500 record in year 4, is this sufficient for extending him? So in this hypothetical, his regular season records are 1-7, 4-4, 7-1 and 3-5 (15-17) with one conference championship after 4 years. Is this success? Are you satisfied?

Forget everything else. Forget recruiting rankings, close (competitive?) losses or wins, blowout losses, bowl records, OOC records, etc. Forget everything that is not the conference regular season and conference championship records (that's what we are playing for). Base it all on what he has accomplished on the field in conference. What are your expectations/demands of our (or any) HC that you hire for UNT? It may not be as easy as it sounds.

Cr1028 · November 17, 2022

37 minutes ago, meaniegreenie said:

I think your answer involves Graham Harrell and Mason Fine.

Mason Fine was here in 2019. That was Littrell’s worst season of all. With Harrell you have a fair point.

Cr1028 · November 17, 2022

20 minutes ago, keith said:

Well, at least a couple of you were able to follow the parameters of the original request. I realize things often veer off course, but this wasn't intended to be an analysis (or basing) of our current HC, grading our recent history, candidate discussion, pay, etc.

Assume you are king for a day and you are hiring a new HC for North Texas and you tell him he has 4 years and at the end of year 4 you will review his *conference* W-L record and conference championship record. You tell him, it must be <fill in the blank> or we will part ways. It's not realistic or reasonable to expect to be undefeated over 4 years and win 4 conference championships. So what is it? As an example, if he wins one game in year 1, goes .500 in year two, makes it and wins a conference championship in year 3 and then follows it up with a sub .500 record in year 4, is this sufficient for extending him? So in this hypothetical, his regular season records are 1-7, 4-4, 7-1 and 3-5 (15-17) with one conference championship after 4 years. Is this success? Are you satisfied?

Forget everything else. Forget recruiting rankings, close (competitive?) losses or wins, blowout losses, bowl records, OOC records, etc. Forget everything that is not the conference regular season and conference championship records (that's what we are playing for). Base it all on what he has accomplished on the field in conference. What are your expectations/demands of our (or any) HC that you hire for UNT? It may not be as easy as it sounds.

The only way to get them to give you a straight answer is to make a poll and give them a few choices to go between.

Matt from A700 · November 17, 2022

If we're having to restart a program or joining a stronger conference, I would want our hypothetical head coach to have a winning season within the third year. Probably start with a five-year contract so if that winning record is accomplished by Year 3, there's no pressure to extend until another winning season after Year 4.

I don't need us to win every conference championship or bowl game, but I want to be in contention every year for a conference championship, and eventually for the G5 spot in the expanded CFP. Overall, I'd like to see us winning 9-10 games a year and also leading the league in attendance.

If this coach were to be hired away, with the improving reputation UNT had built, I would be less patient with the new coach in getting back to 10 wins/conference championship contention.

Hopefully one day, UNT will consider 9-5 mediocre.

NorthTexasWeLove · November 17, 2022

1 hour ago, keith said:

Well, at least a couple of you were able to follow the parameters of the original request. I realize things often veer off course, but this wasn't intended to be an analysis (or basing) of our current HC, grading our recent history, candidate discussion, pay, etc.

Assume you are king for a day and you are hiring a new HC for North Texas and you tell him he has 4 years and at the end of year 4 you will review his *conference* W-L record and conference championship record. You tell him, it must be <fill in the blank> or we will part ways. It's not realistic or reasonable to expect to be undefeated over 4 years and win 4 conference championships. So what is it? As an example, if he wins one game in year 1, goes .500 in year two, makes it and wins a conference championship in year 3 and then follows it up with a sub .500 record in year 4, is this sufficient for extending him? So in this hypothetical, his regular season records are 1-7, 4-4, 7-1 and 3-5 (15-17) with one conference championship after 4 years. Is this success? Are you satisfied?

Forget everything else. Forget recruiting rankings, close (competitive?) losses or wins, blowout losses, bowl records, OOC records, etc. Forget everything that is not the conference regular season and conference championship records (that's what we are playing for). Base it all on what he has accomplished on the field in conference. What are your expectations/demands of our (or any) HC that you hire for UNT? It may not be as easy as it sounds.

By year 4 you better have won a conference championship/And Bowl and be bowling during your contract season while having an overall record comfortably over .500 and at minimum 1 win over SMU. Otherwise, see ya.

UNTcrazy727 · November 17, 2022

5 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

By year 4 you better have won a conference championship/And Bowl and be bowling during your contract season while having an overall record comfortably over .500 and at minimum 1 win over SMU. Otherwise, see ya.

For argument's sake, lets say a new coach goes 6-6 (4-4), 8-4 (6-2), 7-5 (5-3), 9-3 (6-2), but never makes the conference championship game. Would you want them fired?

MeanGreenTexan · November 17, 2022

2 hours ago, meaniegreenie said:

I think your answer involves Graham Harrell and Mason Fine.

As @Cr1028 mentioned before, Fine was here during the 2019 train wreck.

And he has a really good OC now. Just as good, maybe better, than Harrell was at the time (remember, the knock on Harrell is his game script was amazing, but once the other team made adjustments to what we were doing... his offenses often stalled).
Littrell doesn't seem to be the same jovial HC he used to be. Go back and watch him on some of those old Beyond the Green episodes. Now, he just kinda walks around on the sideline in his own space. Rarely goes into a huddle during a timeout. Not excited to talk about his team to media. He's just a different person. It's like he's not enjoying his job like he used to.

aztecskin · November 17, 2022

14 hours ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

In 2017 UNT was picked to finish 4th in the division. No one expected us to win 9 games or make the conference championship, but you want to dock them points for close wins vs 3 teams that had winning records? Give me a break. Their losses were to an 8 win Iowa, 7 win SMU, 11 win FAU, and 11 win Troy. How can you honestly give that team a B-? They won 4 more games than the previous season! I think people only grade the '17 and '18 seasons based on the championship and bowl losses, which is way too harsh.

I don’t dock them points for that. I think getting to the championship is great. They were a little ahead of schedule, which is why I like putting that team together with the 18 team, which was better, and beat Ark. But the totality of those two seasons is a B-

1 blowout championship appearance

2 blowout bowl losses

1 SEC win

NorthTexasWeLove · November 17, 2022

9 minutes ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

For argument's sake, lets say a new coach goes 6-6 (4-4), 8-4 (6-2), 7-5 (5-3), 9-3 (6-2), but never makes the conference championship game. Would you want them fired?

Did he win a bowl or multiple bowls and how has his recruiting been?

MeanGreenTexan · November 17, 2022

8 minutes ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

For argument's sake, lets say a new coach goes 6-6 (4-4), 8-4 (6-2), 7-5 (5-3), 9-3 (6-2), but never makes the conference championship game. Would you want them fired?

Hmm. This is an interesting hypothetical. Because those 8-4 and 9-3 seasons would mean we just barely missed out on the CCG (considering we're about to play in a CCG with 2 losses).

In this hypothetical, is there some kind of buzzsaw, ranked team running through everyone like UCF has been doing in the AAC lately? If so, I wouldn't mind getting beat out by a team like that, making the CCG misses more palatable. And how is recruiting looking? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel we can look forward to once a bunch of studs get into the program?

UNTcrazy727 · November 17, 2022

24 minutes ago, aztecskin said:

I don’t dock them points for that. I think getting to the championship is great. They were a little ahead of schedule, which is why I like putting that team together with the 18 team, which was better, and beat Ark. But the totality of those two seasons is a B-

1 blowout championship appearance

2 blowout bowl losses

1 SEC win

Historically speaking, how can someone give back-to-back 9 win seasons at UNT a B-? Especially, when in the prior 3 seasons ('14-'16) our record was 10-27. Grading scale seems off...

UNTcrazy727 · November 17, 2022

31 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Did he win a bowl or multiple bowls and how has his recruiting been?

I don't know. You're the one that said the coach had to win a conference championship.

MeanGreenTexan · November 17, 2022

2 minutes ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

Historically speaking, how can someone give back-to-back 9 win seasons at UNT a B-? Especially, when in the prior 3 seasons ('14-'16) our record was 10-27. Grading scale seems off...

Those FAU(X2), Troy, & USU blowouts were pretty rough, and have likely dulled some of the shine of those 2 teams for many. I can understand maybe an A- because of those losses. But yeah, trying to look at them objectively (including historically, as you mention), there's no way I could justify a B grade or lower for those 2 seasons.

UNTcrazy727 · November 17, 2022

28 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Hmm. This is an interesting hypothetical. Because those 8-4 and 9-3 seasons would mean we just barely missed out on the CCG (considering we're about to play in a CCG with 2 losses).

In this hypothetical, is there some kind of buzzsaw, ranked team running through everyone like UCF has been doing in the AAC lately? If so, I wouldn't mind getting beat out by a team like that, making the CCG misses more palatable. And how is recruiting looking? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel we can look forward to once a bunch of studs get into the program?

Does it really matter? How could we justify firing a coach that goes 4 straight seasons without a losing record, while finishing towards the top of the conference? Any sane UNT fan would sign up for this kind of stretch in a heartbeat.

NorthTexasWeLove · November 17, 2022

8 minutes ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

I don't know. You're the one that said the coach had to win a conference championship.

Your scenario is 30-18 over 4 years with 4 bowl appearances. You clearly like splitting hairs, so I'll play.

If he goes 30-18 over 4 and misses CCG and, pending bowl opponents, splits with an average composite recruiting ranking over those years of #4 or better in recruiting then I'm in for an ext.

UNTcrazy727 · November 17, 2022

30 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Those FAU(X2), Troy, & USU blowouts were pretty rough, and have likely dulled some of the shine of those 2 teams for many. I can understand maybe an A- because of those losses. But yeah, trying to look at them objectively (including historically, as you mention), there's no way I could justify a B grade or lower for those 2 seasons.

I don't think they can be graded together due to the vastly different expectations each season had.

2017- We were expected to take another small step up and finish in the middle of the conference with 6-7 wins. But we surprised everyone and dominated C-USA West. Yeah, getting blown out twice to end the season sucked, but we had little chance beating FAU and Troy. I think some people forget Troy beat a 9-4 LSU that year. GRADE: A

2018- Expected front runner for CUSA. Probably best start in program history, but close losses to La Tech and UAB derail title hopes. The meltdown vs ODU is one of the worst moments of Littrell's tenure, costing us our first 10 win season. That bothered me more than the bowl loss to an 11-2 Utah State. GRADE: B

Edited November 17, 2022 by UNTcrazy727

Cooke County Kid · November 17, 2022

Head Coach Expectations;

competitive and prepared in every game

a winning record every year

actually compete every year for conference championships and win one or two

win bowl games

an overall winning record, see above

no controversies and continue our high graduation rate

3 year contract and predetermined 2 year extension if above criteria met

pay him what it takes to get a WINNER, ie Mack

aztecskin · November 17, 2022

1 hour ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

Historically speaking, how can someone give back-to-back 9 win seasons at UNT a B-? Especially, when in the prior 3 seasons ('14-'16) our record was 10-27. Grading scale seems off...

I don’t do the Vito “compared to the rest of NT history”

9 wins vs CUSA+the schedule NT had is not super impressive. 9 wins in 1956 is like a perfect season. There are variables.

This is why I say “compete for the league title” and “be competitive in non-con”. Those criteria are generic enough to allow some room for error, but also hold the standard high enough. 9 wins is too weak. Might be against puffs. Bowl appearance is the the same. Conf title is against presumably comparable comp. Competitive non-con is similar, in that we had the schedule and prepared for those games.

keith · November 17, 2022

2 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Did he win a bowl or multiple bowls and how has his recruiting been?

Recruiting as rated by some 3rd-party rating service? I don't know why that even matters. If we win, I don't care if we have the 14th out of 14 class every year. Conversely if we have the number 1 rated recruiting class and don't win, how is that helpful?

keith · November 17, 2022

OK, how about this....In the next 4 years would you rather:

1. Go 7-5 each year, not make it to a conference championship and win all 4 bowl games or

2. Go 8-4 each year, go 1-1 in conference championship games and lose all 4 bowl games

MeanGreenTexan · November 17, 2022

2 hours ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

For argument's sake, lets say a new coach goes 6-6 (4-4), 8-4 (6-2), 7-5 (5-3), 9-3 (6-2), but never makes the conference championship game. Would you want them fired?

3 minutes ago, keith said:

OK, how about this....In the next 4 years would you rather:

1. Go 7-5 each year, not make it to a conference championship and win all 4 bowl games or

2. Go 8-4 each year, go 1-1 in conference championship games and lose all 4 bowl games

NorthTexasWeLove · November 17, 2022

19 minutes ago, keith said:

Recruiting as rated by some 3rd-party rating service? I don't know why that even matters. If we win, I don't care if we have the 14th out of 14 class every year. Conversely if we have the number 1 rated recruiting class and don't win, how is that helpful?

Recruiting always matters.