Question for the board...

keith · November 16, 2022

It's a bye week with not much going on and most of the content this year has been dominated with our HC situation, dissatisfaction with our football performance and by association our HC (and staff) over the last years, the need to change direction (or just change), etc., I thought I'd get some objective perspective from this community.

Really a multi-part question. First, with respect to the performance of UNT football in general and the head coach specifically, what are your expectations/requirements? Avoid the "be competitive," "not suck in a bowl game," "win an important game on national TV" crutch as these can be subjective. Also, try to restrict this to conference performance if possible as we should, in theory, be on relatively equal footing with our conference mates. For example, in order to be satisfied with the performance of the team and coach, do you expect or require making the conference championship game every year? Winning it every year? Making it 2 out of 4 years, winning it 1 out of 4 years, etc.?

Second, assuming a new coach, what is the minimal initial contract (3, 4, 5, ?) duration in years you would be comfortable with?

Third, based on the first and a new coach, when do your expectations/requirements kick-in? Do you give a coach 4 years and if he hasn't made it to the conference championship 3 times or won it twice (or whatever your requirements are), do you cut him loose and try again?

Curious as to what everyone's realistic and objective/measurable expectations/requirements are for the UNT football team and HC (and staff).

Wag Tag · November 16, 2022

Coach Mc has set the bar. Be a recognizable G5 program on a national level. This will be done through winning at the G5 level and being competitive against P5 competition.

I had 3 goals this season

1. Do not get blown out by G5 team.... Failed

2. Prove you can develop a qb.....Failed

3. 8-4....?

If he wins a Championship it trumps all the above

MrAlien · November 16, 2022

Ideally I would like to see an experienced head coach, has a better then .500 winning percentage, and some recruiting skills. But lets be realistic, this program has limits to whom it can bring in, and is not going to be able to poach a decent coach away from another school. More then likely they either bring in a first time head coach, or they bring in a coach that was recently fired.

What happens to the rest of the coaching staff and players, how many jump ship?

KingDL1 · November 16, 2022

Seth was until just recently the highest paid coach in the conference, highest paid coach in our history.

I expect greatness and all I have been served is his mediocre to subpar results for the money invested.

I expect for that money several Conference titles, some bowl wins and heavily stacked winning season records.

Seth's stats out of conference suck, his overall conference performance sucks, his bowl game records has sucked and his recruiting has sucked.

Just imagine how bad he will suck if he stays for the AAC.

Fire Seth NOW!

untbowler · November 16, 2022

11 minutes ago, MrAlien said:

Ideally I would like to see an experienced head coach, has a better then .500 winning percentage, and some recruiting skills. But lets be realistic, this program has limits to whom it can bring in, and is not going to be able to poach a decent coach away from another school. More then likely they either bring in a first time head coach, or they bring in a coach that was recently fired.

What happens to the rest of the coaching staff and players, how many jump ship?

that is the biggest bunch of bullsh*t poor pitiful UNT.

We are paying SL $2 million that is a large salary for any G5, so cut the whoa is me bullsh*t.

RV and the BOR failed on this hire, now if SL only made $1.1 then maybe feel for him, but he is one of the higher paid G5's

MrAlien · November 16, 2022

1 minute ago, untbowler said:

that is the biggest bunch of bullsh*t poor pitiful UNT.

We are paying SL $2 million that is a large salary for any G5, so cut the whoa is me bullsh*t.

RV and the BOR failed on this hire, now if SL only made $1.1 then maybe feel for him, but he is one of the higher paid G5's

Do you really expect to poach a decent coach from another G5 school for less then $2M? Any decent coach would almost certainly need to be bought out, or at the very least UNT would have to out bid other offers. Not to mention, a coach of that capacity would probably want to bring some of his staff with him, and I am sure they would want a pay raise as well.

meangreenbob · November 16, 2022

5 minutes ago, untbowler said:

that is the biggest bunch of bullsh*t poor pitiful UNT.

We are paying SL $2 million that is a large salary for any G5, so cut the whoa is me bullsh*t.

RV and the BOR failed on this hire, now if SL only made $1.1 then maybe feel for him, but he is one of the higher paid G5's

I wouldn’t feel for him if he was only making 1.1 million. Even at that level he would be well underperforming. There are many G5 Head Coaches doing far more for less money and with far less in facilities.
Littrell has failed miserably.

KingDL1 · November 16, 2022

35 minutes ago, MrAlien said:

Do you really expect to poach a decent coach from another G5 school for less then $2M? Any decent coach would almost certainly need to be bought out, or at the very least UNT would have to out bid other offers. Not to mention, a coach of that capacity would probably want to bring some of his staff with him, and I am sure they would want a pay raise as well.

This is not really true, the last time when Seth was hired Coaches came out of the woodwork to submit for the job, I would expect it again. Its not the worst area of the world to coach and recruit. Now we are in a better conference, we are a bigger University and we have even better facilities.

NorthTexasWeLove · November 16, 2022

Some measuable goals...

1. First and most importantly... top 4 conference finish in recruiting in every cycle.

2. Be bowl eligible by performance standards most years.

3. Win bowl games.

4. Compete for conference championship appearances.

5. Win the conference.

6. Be a face of the program that permeates an exciting energized, and fun program. This and 1 will often times go hand in hand.

7. Run a clean program.

8. Graduate your players.

9. Beat SMU with some regularity.

NorthTexasWeLove · November 16, 2022

1 hour ago, MrAlien said:

Ideally I would like to see an experienced head coach, has a better then .500 winning percentage, and some recruiting skills. But lets be realistic, this program has limits to whom it can bring in, and is not going to be able to poach a decent coach away from another school. More then likely they either bring in a first time head coach, or they bring in a coach that was recently fired.

What happens to the rest of the coaching staff and players, how many jump ship?

I'll take recently fired Skip Holtz in a heartbeat. Could get him for under 2 if we're being realistic

Dannymacfan · November 16, 2022

1 minute ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

1. First and most importantly... top 4 conference finish in recruiting in every cycle.

I think this one may constitute 95% of what is required here. Not to belabor the point, but we are sitting in a gigantic hotbed of talent. How fun would it be to have a person running this program that brings a proven system on how to best mine it? I get so tired of hearing what a great offensive mind Littrell has and yet if you don't have the players it really doesn't matter that much.

And the crazy thing is the big time recruiter does not have to be the head coach! Sonny Dykes is not a great recruiter, he couldn't sell his way out of paper bag. But he has a system and he hired the right guys to implement it. Littrell has never gotten this right and he never will.

Dannymacfan · November 16, 2022

4 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

I'll take recently fired Skip Holtz in a heartbeat. Could get him for under 2 if we're being realistic

I would take Skip as well but I think we can even do better than him. Skip did much better in recruiting with WAY lower resources than Littrell has.

MeanGreenTexan · November 16, 2022

1 hour ago, MrAlien said:

Ideally I would like to see an experienced head coach, has a better then .500 winning percentage, and some recruiting skills. But lets be realistic, this program has limits to whom it can bring in, and is not going to be able to poach a decent coach away from another school. More then likely they either bring in a first time head coach, or they bring in a coach that was recently fired.

What happens to the rest of the coaching staff and players, how many jump ship?

My man, you cannot be more wrong about this.

So tired of the Poor, Lil' Ol' UNT thoughts from several around here. Those days are long gone.

UNT is an attractive, vibrant University with excellent Athletics facilities out the wazzoo, soon-to-be in the preeminent G5 conference, and in the middle of the most fertile recruiting grounds in America. Not to mention: We're paying our coaching staff a friggin ton of money.

The "limits" on who we can bring in are only those active P5 head coaches who already have jobs. That's IT.

untbowler · November 16, 2022

1 hour ago, MrAlien said:

Do you really expect to poach a decent coach from another G5 school for less then $2M? Any decent coach would almost certainly need to be bought out, or at the very least UNT would have to out bid other offers. Not to mention, a coach of that capacity would probably want to bring some of his staff with him, and I am sure they would want a pay raise as well.

you will find plenty of very good coaches for under $2 million if the BOR decides to go cheaper. We overpaid for SL, pure and simple.

MGNation92 · November 16, 2022

1. 7-8 wins a season at minimum, bowl appearances and wins

2. Conference championship appearance every 3-4 years, more often obviously being more ideal

3. No major controversies

4. Recruiting well against peers, ESPECIALLY in-state.

As far as coach goes, I think 3-4 seasons should be the leash. If they don't have multiple bowl wins, solid recruiting, and/or a conference championship? Time to move on.

Basically what I'm saying is: We need to be Houston

MeanGreenTexan · November 16, 2022

14 minutes ago, untbowler said:

you will find plenty of very good coaches for under $2 million if the BOR decides to go cheaper. We overpaid for SL, pure and simple.

Back-to-back 9-win seasons with a CCG appearance, 3 straight bowls, annihilating Arkansas at their place with the viral Peter Pan play (I don't care how bad they were)... after the long drought we were in beforehand, it sure didn't feel like overpaying. That was the going rate if we wanted to keep a coach who was succeeding and being courted by P5s. I have no idea what happened, but the HC we've had the past 4 seasons has not been the same one from the first 3.

I don't know about you, but I'd like for the new guy to be at that same level (the 9-win, P5-courting level). There's no reason why we should go down in pay. Why do that?

aztecskin · November 16, 2022

I always say that it is at minimum to compete for a conference title every 3/4 years or so, and be solid in the "down" years. Beyond that, the good team every three/four years can/should make some noise outside of the conference.

Like, 2016/17 -- NT got good a little too quick, was in the title game before they were really a strong team. 2018 they had a *very* good team, that didn't get to the title game. Beat Arkansas but that team *should* have done better in the bowl. B- grade

2019 through 2021 they were going to rebuild (new QB). I thought NT had the league's worst defense and was embarrassing when on TV. D- grade

2022 - Seth has a team competing for the title game but was awful in non-conference. Depending on if they win the league/bowl will see if this is a passing grade. Can go from D-to-B+ in my mind.

It all boils down to having a program that we are proud of. Competing for a title every three years as a goal, allows the possibility for development and staff changes, and injuries. No one expects us to go undefeated against the SEC, but at least be competitive -- like beating a down Arkansas. (We should have beaten Cal, imho, and definitely the AAC squads this year)

MeanGreenTexan · November 16, 2022

5 minutes ago, aztecskin said:

I always say that it is at minimum to compete for a conference title every 3/4 years or so, and be solid in the "down" years. Beyond that, the good team every three/four years can/should make some noise outside of the conference.

Like, 2016/17 -- NT got good a little too quick, was in the title game before they were really a strong team. 2018 they had a *very* good team, that didn't get to the title game. Beat Arkansas but that team *should* have done better in the bowl. B- grade

2019 through 2021 they were going to rebuild (new QB). I thought NT had the league's worst defense and was embarrassing when on TV. D- grade

2022 - Seth has a team competing for the title game but was awful in non-conference. Depending on if they win the league/bowl will see if this is a passing grade. Can go from D-to-B+ in my mind.

It all boils down to having a program that we are proud of. Competing for a title every three years as a goal, allows the possibility for development and staff changes, and injuries. No one expects us to go undefeated against the SEC, but at least be competitive -- like beating a down Arkansas. (We should have beaten Cal, imho, and definitely the AAC squads this year)

I think you're underselling those first 3 years. I don't think NT got good too quick. Those guys worked hard and made their own success. All 3 of those years were A's in my book.

I think Littrell lost his right-hand man in Harrell, and just floundered for a while. Seems he has a really good OC again, but something's still not right.

TripleGrad · November 16, 2022

What do I view as success?

Winning record and bowl eligible. #hit6 should be a bare minimum, not a stretch goal.

Win conference championships on a regular basis. This is more important than the Participation Bowl in Fresno or whatever.

Make UNT a place I don't have to apologize for.

Position for P5 when the ACC comes apart

Edited November 16, 2022 by TripleGrad

UNT Texas Hooligan · November 16, 2022

Answer: Fire Littrell

Cr1028 · November 16, 2022

7 hours ago, untbowler said:

We are paying SL $2 million that is a large salary for any G5, so cut the whoa is me bullsh*t.

RV and the BOR failed on this hire, now if SL only made $1.1 then maybe feel for him, but he is one of the higher paid G5's

To be clear RV and the board hired Littrell with a $725k base pay on a $3.625M contract for 5 years. Littrell took a 1-11 team to a 5-7 record and an overtime bowl loss to Army. Wren Baker is responsible for everything since.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Cr1028

meangreenbob · November 16, 2022

39 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Back-to-back 9-win seasons with a CCG appearance, 3 straight bowls, annihilating Arkansas at their place with the viral Peter Pan play (I don't care how bad they were)... after the long drought we were in beforehand, it sure didn't feel like overpaying. That was the going rate if we wanted to keep a coach who was succeeding and being courted by P5s. I have no idea what happened, but the HC we've had the past 4 seasons has not been the same one from the first 3.

I don't know about you, but I'd like for the new guy to be at that same level (the 9-win, P5-courting level). There's no reason why we should go down in pay. Why do that?

WHAT?

Of course this is the very same head coach we had for the FIRST THREE YEARS.

Graham Harrell and Mason Fine ran cover for Littrell. Littrell tried to parlay their success into a P5 position but KST was too wise. Unfortunately our leaders weren’t.

They were totally caught off guard, totally caught unprepared and therefore they foolishly negotiated from a position a weakness.

And because of their ineptness we, the fans have had to suffer the consequences.

MrAlien · November 16, 2022

Everyone in the forum seems want: G5 coach coming off an 8 win season, with a bowl victory, and a G5 championship, for $2 Million..... not going to happen!

Everyone seems to assume that UNT willing to spend what ever it takes to turn this program into an AAC title contender. There is not indication that will happen, in fact that has never happened.

Cr1028 · November 16, 2022

3 hours ago, keith said:

First, with respect to the performance of UNT football in general and the head coach specifically, what are your expectations/requirements? try to restrict this to conference performance if possible as we should, in theory, be on relatively equal footing with our conference mates.

Second, assuming a new coach, what is the minimal initial contract (3, 4, 5, ?) duration in years you would be comfortable with?

Third, based on the first and a new coach, when do your expectations/requirements kick-in? Do you give a coach 4 years and if he hasn't made it to the conference championship 3 times or won it twice (or whatever your requirements are), do you cut him loose and try again?

Since you asked a direct question I feel you deserve a direct answer.

1. Finish no worse than 3rd in conference and no lower than 2nd in division (if applicable) every year. Conference title game appearance every 3rd year at a minimum.

2. New coach initial contract should be 4-5 years.

3. Improvement should be shown from day 1 and meeting the expectations on a annual basis must begin by year 3. If he isn’t meeting expectations it becomes a case of is he continuing to improve toward the goal or is he regressing in year 3. If regressing, pay the 2 years left on his current deal and move on. If still showing improvement but not quite to standard yet, give him the 4th year to try and meet them. If he doesn’t, pay the 1 year buyout and move on if a perceived better option presents himself.

UNTcrazy727 · November 16, 2022

41 minutes ago, aztecskin said:

I always say that it is at minimum to compete for a conference title every 3/4 years or so, and be solid in the "down" years. Beyond that, the good team every three/four years can/should make some noise outside of the conference.

Like, 2016/17 -- NT got good a little too quick, was in the title game before they were really a strong team. 2018 they had a *very* good team, that didn't get to the title game. Beat Arkansas but that team *should* have done better in the bowl. B- grade

2019 through 2021 they were going to rebuild (new QB). I thought NT had the league's worst defense and was embarrassing when on TV. D- grade

2022 - Seth has a team competing for the title game but was awful in non-conference. Depending on if they win the league/bowl will see if this is a passing grade. Can go from D-to-B+ in my mind.

It all boils down to having a program that we are proud of. Competing for a title every three years as a goal, allows the possibility for development and staff changes, and injuries. No one expects us to go undefeated against the SEC, but at least be competitive -- like beating a down Arkansas. (We should have beaten Cal, imho, and definitely the AAC squads this year)

Some thoughts:

2016-2018 only gets a B-?!? That's way too harsh. Especially, after the '14 and '15 seasons. You can't go from 1 win to complaining about not winning a conference title in 3 years. If we're grading those years as a whole and what we were doing right before then it should be a B+ to A.

2022- Unless you are going into a season with legit title hopes (we were not), I don't see how you can say a 6 win season is a D-. That kind of grade should be reserved for 5 wins or less.