Odus Mitchell is the Standard at UNT

[El Paso Eagle]

10 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

If his 56-ish percent winning percentage at NT is the standard then that standard is low.

The standard is low; look at some of the people in our HOF. You seem to be trying to judge his performance based on current standards. In HS for example is was not that long ago when only the district champion moved on. Now there are districts where every team makes the playoff. Does that make them better teams than some of the ones in the past that never made the playoffs? Were receivers before 1999 not as good because they didn't make as many highlight catches before "sticky" gloves were allowed? Look at the past and judge it based on what was happening at the time.

[GMG_Dallas]

19 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

The standard is low; look at some of the people in our HOF. You seem to be trying to judge his performance based on current standards. In HS for example is was not that long ago when only the district champion moved on. Now there are districts where every team makes the playoff. Does that make them better teams than some of the ones in the past that never made the playoffs? Were receivers before 1999 not as good because they didn't make as many highlight catches before "sticky" gloves were allowed? Look at the past and judge it based on what was happening at the time.

Yes I understand all of that. I'm not saying it doesn't make him as good because of when he coached. I'm just saying to call him the standard is silly. There's not even a way to take what Mitchell did and describe what it would mean for somebody to do what he did *today*. Looking at his conference championships and saying that's the standard is like Packers fans saying Lambeau is the standard because he won 6 championships in an era that had 10-ish NFL teams depending on the year.

[Coffee and TV]

3 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Yes I understand all of that. I'm not saying it doesn't make him as good because of when he coached. I'm just saying to call him the standard is silly. There's not even a way to take what Mitchell did and describe what it would mean for somebody to do what he did *today*. Looking at his conference championships and saying that's the standard is like Packers fans saying Lambeau is the standard because he won 6 championships in an era that had 10-ish NFL teams depending on the year.

No, but there is a thing called the Vince Lombardi trophy and he won a bunch of NFL titles when there were only 10 or 15 teams. You're trying way too hard to well akshually the most successful coach in UNT history by saying it didn't count because it was 60 years ago. Just give it a rest already, you've made your point. 

[GMG_Dallas]

12 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

There's not even a way to take what Mitchell did and describe what it would mean for somebody to do what he did *today*. 

 

7 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

You're trying way too hard to well akshually the most successful coach in UNT history by saying it didn't count because it was 60 years ago. 

I never said it doesn't count, I just said it doesn't make him "the standard" for UNT football today. Can you answer the above, please? I want to understand what it would mean for somebody to be today's Odus Mitchell? And Lombardi falls in the same group. Being legendary in a completely different era with no salary cap and half as many teams doesn't make you the standard for today. Such a ridiculous statement but I'm not the one who made it or is defending it. 

[UNTLifer]

17 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

That's great. There's no comparing football today to back then. Odus Mitchell isn't the standard.

Same with baseball.  Screw Aaron Judge's HR season record.  Maris, Aaron, Ruth, etc. aren't the standard.  

[rcade]

8 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

I want to understand what it would mean for somebody to be today's Odus Mitchell?

It would mean having a coach whose results are so good we keep extending his contract. From 1946 to 1959 his lowest finish was second place. The team reached three bowls in an era where bowls were scarce. Even in the next seven years there were second, first and first place finishes and he recruited Mean Joe Greene.

It also means having a coach who could set himself apart as a leader, as Mitchell did when he led the integration of college football in Texas.

[Cr1028]

27 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

I want to understand what it would mean for somebody to be today's Odus Mitchell? 

It means a coach that wins a conference championship on average every other year. It means a coach that gets us ranked in the top 20 of the AP poll. It means a coach that recruits and develops first round draft picks. THAT is what it would mean. 

If I told you Seth would go 10-2 overall, win conference with a 6-0 conference record and have wins over Florida in Gainesville and UHouston at home you would take it in a heartbeat and wouldn’t even care who else was on the schedule. This actually happened in 1947.

[GMG_Dallas]

37 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Same with baseball.  Screw Aaron Judge's HR season record.  Maris, Aaron, Ruth, etc. aren't the standard.  

Baseball records are viewed completely different than basketball/football records for a reason. While there's been some changes, the game remains relatively the same.

33 minutes ago, rcade said:

From 1946 to 1959 his lowest finish was second place. The team reached three bowls in an era where bowls were scarce. Even in the next seven years there were second, first and first place finishes and he recruited Mean Joe Greene.

 

Second place... outside of the 3 seasons in the Lone Star Conference where there were 7 teams max, most of the conferences NT played in had 3 to 5 teams. You say second place. You could also say second to last or middle of the pack.

 

11 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

It means a coach that wins a conference championship on average every other year.

See above.

11 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

If I told you Seth would go 10-2 overall, win conference with a 6-0 conference record and have wins over Florida in Gainesville and UHouston at home you would take it in a heartbeat and wouldn’t even care who else was on the schedule. This actually happened in 1947.

Florida finished 4-5-1 and UH won 3 games while going 0-6 in conference. SL won 9 games while stomping Arkansas and getting the elusive win against SMU. Who cares they were bad that year I guess. He also recruited and developed multiple NFL players, including a consensus all-American (the first all-American since Mean Joe Greene), and an NFL draft pick which hadn't happened here in a long time. Sure SL didn't win conference but the CUSA divisions SL coached in are as big as Mitchell's biggest conference at the time so I think it's fair to call that even since Mitchell didn't have to play as many conference games or coach in conference championship games. Gotta keep the requirements even here. SL also beat a top 25 team at home, ya know. Checks a lot of Odus Mitchell boxes. Guess he's the UNT coach for life.

[Cr1028]

14 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

See above.

Florida finished 4-5-1 and UH won 3 games while going 0-6 in conference. SL won 9 games while stomping Arkansas and getting the elusive win against SMU. Who cares they were bad that year I guess. He also recruited and developed multiple NFL players, including a consensus all-American (the first all-American since Mean Joe Greene), and an NFL draft pick which hadn't happened here in a long time. Sure SL didn't win conference but the CUSA divisions SL coached in are as big as Mitchell's biggest conference at the time so I think it's fair to call that even since Mitchell didn't have to play as many conference games or coach in conference championship games. Gotta keep the requirements even here. SL also beat a top 25 team at home, ya know. Checks a lot of Odus Mitchell boxes. Guess he's the UNT coach for life.

I can’t even imagine how you could compare Littrell to Mitchell. 

[greenminer]

2 hours ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

Still inexcusable the school's all-time rushing leader didn't make the All-Century Team. Dunbar was screwed. 

-Also holds program record for career TDs (41)

-Only back in school history with 3 straight 1,000 yd seasons.

Man, I don't know.  I can't argue with those stats, but I am really really hard pressed to put him ahead of Cobbs.  Dunbar was fast and could catch out of the backfield.  But I don't think i've ever seen a back hit the holes better in terms of timing like Cobbs could.  It's like he was inside the mind of the lineman.  Cobbs is not that far behind in any of those records you listed,  and they both contributed in the NFL.  Toss up, IMO.

I never saw the other RBs play.  Way before my time.

The truth is, that is the one position we are consistently blessed in.  We have several RBs beyond the 4 that made it that could make a strong case.

Fun fact, Cobbs complete 2of 3 passes in his career.  2 TDs.  Passer rating of 407.1.

[GMG_Dallas]

10 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

I can’t even imagine how you could compare Littrell to Mitchell. 

Because you're witnessing SL's tenure as opposed to reading stories about his accomplishments 60 years later. I just laid it out for you using the same criteria you used to establish Mitchell's legend. SL has accomplished many of those things you laid out and he did it 7 years as opposed to 20. You don't like it? It's your criteria.

[Coffee and TV]

2 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Can you answer the above, please? I want to understand what it would mean for somebody to be today's Odus Mitchell?

It means they would win a lot. It's really that simple. People have engaged and given you good answers, but you still go back to your same tired arguments that his wins weren't quality or they don't count for as much because the college football landscape was different. Again, it doesn't matter. Knute Rockne is still the standard at Notre Dame for a reason, even if it was the 20's. 

3 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Such a ridiculous statement but I'm not the one who made it or is defending it. 

It's a summation of all of your posts is what it is. 

[Cr1028]

1 hour ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Because you're witnessing SL's tenure as opposed to reading stories about his accomplishments 60 years later. I just laid it out for you using the same criteria you used to establish Mitchell's legend. SL has accomplished many of those things you laid out and he did it 7 years as opposed to 20. You don't like it? It's your criteria.

Ok, Littrell in 60 years if fired now. Zero conference titles in seven seasons, 1 division titles, and 2 winning seasons out of seven. Zero bowl victories, zero AP poll rankings, and zero first round draft picks. The two are not even in the same ballpark. Texas Sports Hall of Fame? Get real.
 

You want to measure the past by today’s metrics but you need to measure them against their peers of their day. You think Sam Houston is going to take down their FCS champ banners because they moved up to FBS? No. Measure Seth against his peers in the same era. Do the same with Mitchell. It isn’t close. Mitchell had us ranked, yet you brush that off as writers didn’t have the means to pay attention back then. He got us to 3 bowls and won one when there were less than 15 bowls to go around, yet you say, look at who they played. They played who was available to play. Regardless of who was on the schedule, Mitchell found a way to win more often than not. He had only 6 losing seasons in 21 years. SL already has 4 in just 6 full seasons. Mitchell’s level of consistent success is what our standard should be until the next all-century coach presents himself or herself.

[UNTcrazy727]

2 hours ago, greenminer said:

Man, I don't know.  I can't argue with those stats, but I am really really hard pressed to put him ahead of Cobbs.  Dunbar was fast and could catch out of the backfield.  But I don't think i've ever seen a back hit the holes better in terms of timing like Cobbs could.  It's like he was inside the mind of the lineman.  Cobbs is not that far behind in any of those records you listed,  and they both contributed in the NFL.  Toss up, IMO.

I never saw the other RBs play.  Way before my time.

The truth is, that is the one position we are consistently blessed in.  We have several RBs beyond the 4 that made it that could make a strong case.

Fun fact, Cobbs complete 2of 3 passes in his career.  2 TDs.  Passer rating of 407.1.

I just don't see how you can justify leaving out a guy who rewrote the UNT record book. I honestly think he wasn't picked solely for being a Dodge guy. 

My main gripe isn't with Cobbs though. Renfro was 100% only picked due to his NFL career. Dunbar had the same amount of rushing yard in 2010 (1553) as Renfro did his entire college career (1556). 

[Cr1028]

52 minutes ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

I just don't see how you can justify leaving out a guy who rewrote the UNT record book. I honestly think he wasn't picked solely for being a Dodge guy. 

My main gripe isn't with Cobbs though. Renfro was 100% only picked due to his NFL career. Dunbar had the same amount of rushing yard in 2010 (1553) as Renfro did his entire college career (1556). 

It seems Renfro just had fewer carries but had a higher YPC based on his HOF profile. 
https://meangreensports.com/honors/north-texas-athletics-hall-of-fame/ray-renfro/11

Edited October 28, 2022 by Cr1028

[UNTLifer]

3 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Because you're witnessing SL's tenure as opposed to reading stories about his accomplishments 60 years later. I just laid it out for you using the same criteria you used to establish Mitchell's legend. SL has accomplished many of those things you laid out and he did it 7 years as opposed to 20. You don't like it? It's your criteria.

[Coffee and TV]

20 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

The best parody film after Airplane and everything that's come since. 

 

[GMG_Dallas]

2 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

Ok, Littrell in 60 years if fired now. Zero conference titles in seven seasons, 1 division titles, and 2 winning seasons out of seven. Zero bowl victories, zero AP poll rankings, and zero first round draft picks. The two are not even in the same ballpark. Texas Sports Hall of Fame? Get real.
 

You want to measure the past by today’s metrics but you need to measure them against their peers of their day. You think Sam Houston is going to take down their FCS champ banners because they moved up to FBS? No. Measure Seth against his peers in the same era. Do the same with Mitchell. It isn’t close. Mitchell had us ranked, yet you brush that off as writers didn’t have the means to pay attention back then. He got us to 3 bowls and won one when there were less than 15 bowls to go around, yet you say, look at who they played. They played who was available to play. Regardless of who was on the schedule, Mitchell found a way to win more often than not. He had only 6 losing seasons in 21 years. SL already has 4 in just 6 full seasons. Mitchell’s level of consistent success is what our standard should be until the next all-century coach presents himself or herself.

You want to judge 7 years of SL against 21 years of Mitchell without letting SL get to 21 years. Can't expect all the same accomplishments in a third of the tenure. I think if you look at it objectively, you'll SL's accomplishments put him much closer in this conversation than you think. All-American, multiple NFL players, draft pick (first in 17 seasons), two 9-win seasons, one of the best QBs of our history, all while fighting decades of apathy that we also blame for our failures. Sure Mitchell had a bunch of players drafted. You also didn't have nearly as many colleges/universities partaking in college football so those players had less choices on where to play (talking all college levels here). Mitchell had NT ranked? Sure. Once in his 14th season. You want to can SL after 7 but then say he couldn't have a team ranked while not giving nearly as long as it took Mitchell to accomplish that. Greene all-American? Sure. Mitchell and him were together for 1 season yet you want to give Mitchell that credit.

Don't get it twisted. I'm not a big fan of SL. I also think he's not being graded reasonably if we're going simultaneously call Mitchell the standard.

[rcade]

6 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

You want to judge 7 years of SL against 21 years of Mitchell without letting SL get to 21 years. Can't expect all the same accomplishments in a third of the tenure.

We can multiply Littrell's achievements by 3 and he'd still have zero conference championships.

There isn't a fan base in the FBS where the all-time great coaches discussion would include somebody who never won their conference.

[GMG_Dallas]

55 minutes ago, rcade said:

We can multiply Littrell's achievements by 3 and he'd still have zero conference championships.

There isn't a fan base in the FBS where the all-time great coaches discussion would include somebody who never won their conference.

Thanks for the math lesson. Our history is poor. I get it. Glad the guy who won 8 of his conference championships in conferences with 3 to 5 teams is the standard. Y'all are obsessing over this title of conference championship without understanding how watered down a 3 team conference champion is. Best out of 3 after 2 games. Cool. Wining the a 14-team conference with a championship game is much more difficult. Anyways, the information is out there. Glad this guy is your standard.

[greenminer]

The way I see it, Odus won the games in front of him, with the resources given to him.

[Jonnyeagle]

19 minutes ago, greenminer said:

The way I see it, Odus won the games in front of him, with the resources given to him.

Yes don’t know I could say it much better.  Dude was a winner.

[untcampbell]

Odus was close to 40 games over .500 in a program almost 80 games under. Call the Carswell's and Pensacola's Texas Southern, Northwestern State or hell, 2021 FIU. With those guys on his schedule and the best of times in financial support, the current office holder is barely .500. This program was underfunded for the first 90 years or so....many of those were Odus Mitchell years. Against the teams on his schedule, whatever the obstacles, he found a way to win near 40 times more than he lost. 

I don't know a thing about Jack Sisco but coaching a teachers college, he had twice as many wins as losses and 7 conference championships*. Maybe he's your guy. 

 

*records courtesy of Wikipedia, so it may be total bull brownsmell.