North Texas finishes the year with a winning record

[meangreen11]

Fan bases rarely look at their own program with rational eyes. North Texas is no different. Scour the message boards or social media and you’ll find plenty of Mean Green faithful clamoring for a change at head coach with Seth Littrell in his seventh season in charge. This despite Littrell’s success over the past six seasons. North Texas was awful before Littrell arrived prior to the 2016 season. North Texas had one bowl appearance in the previous 11 seasons and only five total from 2000 to 2015. Littrell has led the group to five in six full seasons in Denton. The Mean Green only won six or more games four times in the 16 seasons during the current century. Littrell has three in six years. 

North Texas is 3-3 on the season and sit atop the C-USA standings with a 2-0 record. A six-win season seems inevitable for the Mean Green, which means Littrell would be responsible for more bowl berths in seven years than North Texas received in the previous 25 seasons. North Texas hasn’t had this time of sustained success since Hayden Fry was on campus in the 1970s.

North Texas will reach a bowl and finish with at least six wins. And then I guess it is on the administration and fan base to decide if it wants to walk into the AAC with its most proven coach in 50 years or start from scratch because they feel like six bowl games in seven seasons is somehow underachieving for a program that went decades without earning any type of post season success. 

read more: https://www.texasfootball.com/article/2022/10/08/411-from-week-5-of-the-college-football-season-texas-longhorns-favored-in-red-river-rivalry;-mad-max-duggan-takes-reigns-for-tcu?ref=article_preview_title

[NorthTexasWeLove]

So, shut up and fan. Got it. 

[Pseudo Nym]

Good to see Craven still douching it up for clicks and impressions with his "411" 10 second takes! Bravo!

[Pavlovs Eagle]

"You North Texas State fans should be thrilled for all those bowl appearances and 6 win seasons... Remember you historically suck!" - Texas football sportswriters 

[Dannymacfan]

This guy really pisses me off.  He’s saying “Hey you’re  North Texas - you don’t deserve any better you moron!”

[Matt from A700]

Not rewarding that garbage with a click.

[untjim1995]

I’m what sport?

[untjim1995]

2 hours ago, Pavlovs Eagle said:

"You North Texas State fans should be thrilled for all those bowl appearances and 6 win seasons... Remember you historically suck!" - Texas football sportswriters 

I wouldn’t limit this pathetic expectation to just football sportswriters in this state…hell, there are NORTH TEXAS alums who think like this.

[Wag Tag]

2 options, you fire him, or a limited extension with a small buy out. He needs to win out strong to motivate the fan base!

[2020 Sucks]

This is trash!  We haven't beaten an out of conference FBS team in 5 years.  That Arkansas game was a long time ago!  We might be less critical if we had actually earned 3 of those 6 bowl berths.  The author doesn't mention this because its a spin piece.  Did Wren write this?  The author also doesn't mention that we play in a crap conference and that our concern is our future.  Six CUSA wins are not anywhere equal to 6 AAC wins.  We are headed into a P6 conference and we don't want to be the doormat!  People are tired of the same ol scrap!  Average is the best of the bad or the worst of the best.  Its Purgatory...a place you want to visit, but not stay!  We want to be Cincinnatti.  We want to be UCF.  We want to be that high mid-major that is in the conversation for rankings and even playoff berths.  Nobody wants to go the the "Frisco Got An HEB Bowl", sponsored by the "Allen Outlet Malls Visitors Bureau".  To earn fan support, Seth needed to replace Mason Fine with another great QB that was good with the fans and media.  Seth needed to learn how to be interactive with fans and not just spit out the same tired cliche's.  Seth needs to win all 3 phases more often than not.  Seth needs to execute.  Beating an FCS school, Southern Miss, Charlotte, ODU, Rice and UTEP are 6 wins.  But those wins don't gain recruits and they don't generate bowl berths vs teams that you can beat.  Seth needs to show passion about beating SMU.  Seth needs to show passion about playing in conference championships.  He needs to engage fans instead of running from them.  He makes too much money to produce 6 low tier wins.  For $2M a year, he should be able to perform better and he hasn't gotten the job done.

[Coffee and TV]

14 hours ago, meangreen11 said:

And then I guess it is on the administration and fan base to decide if it wants to walk into the AAC with its most proven coach in 50 years or start from scratch because they feel like six bowl games in seven seasons is somehow underachieving for a program that went decades without earning any type of post season success. 

Oh please. Simply having a .500 record in any conference gets you a bowl game these days. That's such a weak argument.

[Pellom]

14 hours ago, meangreen11 said:

Fan bases rarely look at their own program with rational eyes. North Texas is no different. Scour the message boards or social media and you’ll find plenty of Mean Green faithful clamoring for a change at head coach with Seth Littrell in his seventh season in charge. This despite Littrell’s success over the past six seasons. North Texas was awful before Littrell arrived prior to the 2016 season. North Texas had one bowl appearance in the previous 11 seasons and only five total from 2000 to 2015. Littrell has led the group to five in six full seasons in Denton. The Mean Green only won six or more games four times in the 16 seasons during the current century. Littrell has three in six years. 

North Texas is 3-3 on the season and sit atop the C-USA standings with a 2-0 record. A six-win season seems inevitable for the Mean Green, which means Littrell would be responsible for more bowl berths in seven years than North Texas received in the previous 25 seasons. North Texas hasn’t had this time of sustained success since Hayden Fry was on campus in the 1970s.

North Texas will reach a bowl and finish with at least six wins. And then I guess it is on the administration and fan base to decide if it wants to walk into the AAC with its most proven coach in 50 years or start from scratch because they feel like six bowl games in seven seasons is somehow underachieving for a program that went decades without earning any type of post season success. 

read more: https://www.texasfootball.com/article/2022/10/08/411-from-week-5-of-the-college-football-season-texas-longhorns-favored-in-red-river-rivalry;-mad-max-duggan-takes-reigns-for-tcu?ref=article_preview_title

I know it’s unpopular here, but I agree with you about Littrell. He has certainly raised the bar on a program that was considered a laughing stock nationally. 
 

He’s a victim of his own success. To be frank, a lot of this is politics. If you lose the fanbase, you feel the heat. And I think he should be on the hot seat because the last three years haven’t met the standard he set in the first three. 
 

I’ve said it before, but there is some merit to the idea stability should be the most important factor when considering how to best hit the ground running in the AAC. But at the end of the day, it’s about putting butts in seats and creating fan support that bleeds into recruiting. Littrell has not done enough of that, and my bet is he’s gone at the end of the year. 

[MrAlien]

Littrell might not be a great coach but hes not terrible either... I do not understand why so many people are ready to fire him with out knowing who the next coach will be, or even what direction the AD would like to pursue in the search for one. 

[emmitt01]

Here, I fixed the article. 

“North Texas has been historically bad in football.  The school also had comically  bad facilities, financial support, and expectations.  Seth Littrell has experienced previously unseen success while enjoying previously unheard of resources and advantages that prior coaches never had.  

This season, and his tenure, should be judged on how much he got out of the new tools at his disposal”

 

 

[Coffee and TV]

10 minutes ago, MrAlien said:

Littrell might not be a great coach but hes not terrible either... I do not understand why so many people are ready to fire him with out knowing who the next coach will be, or even what direction the AD would like to pursue in the search for one. 

I land here a little too but am firmly in the camp of "you did a great job, but it's the steroid era and we gotta swing for the fences". Unless we're gonna do that, what's the point? The Linebackers coach from Ole Miss or the OC of Tulsa and the quarterbacks coach from the Buccaneers have all been done, it's time to see if Gary Patterson wants one more chance to turn another North Texas university's football program into something bigger. Hell let's grab Jimbo when he's canned, he won a national title after all.

[Dannymacfan]

2 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

it's time to see if Gary Patterson wants one more chance to turn another North Texas university's football program into something bigger.

Yes!  Hire Gary!!

[MGNation92]

16 minutes ago, emmitt01 said:

Here, I fixed the article. 

“North Texas has been historically bad in football.  The school also had comically  bad facilities, financial support, and expectations.  Seth Littrell has experienced previously unseen success while enjoying previously unheard of resources and advantages that prior coaches never had.  

This season, and his tenure, should be judged on how much he got out of the new tools at his disposal”

This is exactly correct. Lets look at Littrell's record

2016: 5-8 loses HoD bowl that he go into because of APR

2017: 9-5 his best season, gets absolutely blown out in both the conference championship and bowl game

2018: 9-4 another solid season, gets absolutely blown out in the bowl game

2019: 4-8 Mason Fine's senior season, no bowl

2020: 4-6 COVID year, bowl game on a technicality, gets absolutely blown out in the bowl game

2021: 6-7, makes a bowl only because Brint Ryan paid for the entire thing himself, loses against the worst bowl opponent we've played

2022(so far): 3-3, beating bad teams, and getting absolutely blown out by good ones.

He's 40-41 for his career. Take out Mason fine's best seasons (2017 and 2018) and he's 22-32.

He may have taken us to more bowls than any other coach in school history, but he is not a good coach. He's had 7 years to improve, and he's shown time and time again that he can't. I would compare him to Rick Stockstill, but even Stockstill has some trophies in his MTSU career.

If we keep him around, we're looking at mostly losing football, with occasional bowl games that we won't even be competitive in. With the resources we're putting into this thing we must expect better. Otherwise we need to pull a Kansas, and pay a coach minimal money with minimal expectations and funnel the majority of our athletic budget to Men's Basketball.

[MeanGreenTexan]

1 hour ago, 2020 Sucks said:

....  Seth needed to learn how to be interactive with fans and not just spit out the same tired cliche's.  Seth needs to win all 3 phases more often than not.  Seth needs to execute.  Beating an FCS school, Southern Miss, Charlotte, ODU, Rice and UTEP are 6 wins.  But those wins don't gain recruits and they don't generate bowl berths vs teams that you can beat.  Seth needs to show passion about beating SMU.  Seth needs to show passion about playing in conference championships.  He needs to engage fans instead of running from them.  He makes too much money to produce 6 low tier wins.  For $2M a year, he should be able to perform better and he hasn't gotten the job done.

There are a lot of people that will look at wins VS mediocre-to-bad C-USA teams and think, "Hey! this is so much better than Late-Dickey, Dodge, & McCarney!  We're in a better place now!  We're going to bowl games almost every year!  Be careful, because change could put us back to that previous level!"
And this is true.

However, if we're truthful in thinking forward, we'll see that in less than 1 year, we'll be moving into a much more difficult situation to achieve that same kind of .500 football success. 
We're also stuck with very stagnant fan engagement.   Most of that is due to a lack of football success, but some is also due to the fact that the football coach could give 2 practice swings about their/our engagement, and his wet-mop personality doesn't pair well with middling football to win fans.   This aint Nick Saban or Bill Belichick (some of the common names people throw out there when this point is made).
We're also seeing recruiting put on the back burner because the coaches know they must win right now in order to keep their current employment status... which means pour all time/effort into winning the next game on the schedule.   In other words, we're robbing the future to keep the middling going.

Don't be surprised with a win at home VS a struggling LATech team in 2 weeks.
...The fun starts 10/22 at the Alamodome and continues the following week.

[MeanGreenTexan]

46 minutes ago, MrAlien said:

Littrell might not be a great coach but hes not terrible either... I do not understand why so many people are ready to fire him with out knowing who the next coach will be, or even what direction the AD would like to pursue in the search for one. 

You fire because he's not meeting expectations.  Plain & Simple.  You cannot know who the next coach will be until the current one is gone.
The AD has proven in other hires that he can identify good coaches.   Why would we doubt him regarding a football coach?

You're thinking along the lines of The-Devil-You-Know-Is-Better-Than-The-Devil-You-Don't.   This isn't going to get us anywhere but where we're at.   If you're happy with that, so be it.   But you're in an ever-growing minority.

[Coffee and TV]

17 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Otherwise we need to pull a Kansas, and pay a coach minimal money with minimal expectations and funnel the majority of our athletic budget to Men's Basketball.

You're right on all your other points but I think you missed the memo on Kansas this season.

[MGNation92]

Just now, Coffee and TV said:

You're right on all your other points but I think you missed the memo on Kansas this season.

Well yes, and the Mangino years if you want to add those. Kansas was trash at football until they hired the right guy.

My point is we should be able to do the same. If we're content with Littrell going 5-7 every year then cut his salary and give it to Mac. Otherwise hire the right guy

[rcade]

16 hours ago, meangreen11 said:

A six-win season seems inevitable for the Mean Green, which means Littrell would be responsible for more bowl berths in seven years than North Texas received in the previous 25 seasons. North Texas hasn’t had this time of sustained success since Hayden Fry was on campus in the 1970s.

Dickey had more sustained success than Littrell. From 2000-2004 UNT won four straight conference championships, reached four bowls (and won one) and had three seasons in a row with winning records.

The reason to consider moving on from Littrell is that a six-win season where you don't win the conference and get stomped in a bowl game is the lowest possible definition of success.

[untjim1995]

1 hour ago, emmitt01 said:

Here, I fixed the article. 

“North Texas has been historically bad in football.  The school also had comically  bad facilities, financial support, and expectations.  Seth Littrell has experienced previously unseen success while enjoying previously unheard of resources and advantages that prior coaches never had.  

This season, and his tenure, should be judged on how much he got out of the new tools at his disposal”

 

 

Don't forget this PS--getting to a bowl game has become much than it ever was in the previous century...so also don't act like this is a big deal for what SL has accomplished here.

[MrAlien]

35 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

You fire because he's not meeting expectations.  Plain & Simple.  You cannot know who the next coach will be until the current one is gone.
The AD has proven in other hires that he can identify good coaches.   Why would we doubt him regarding a football coach?

You're thinking along the lines of The-Devil-You-Know-Is-Better-Than-The-Devil-You-Don't.   This isn't going to get us anywhere but where we're at.   If you're happy with that, so be it.   But you're in an ever-growing minority.

We can not assume that the next coach will be any better, until we hear the AD come out and state that the university will seek out and hire an established coach that can improve the program.   

[SilverEagle]

Let's keep bowl games in historical perspective. 

In 1959 North Texas played in the Sun Bowl. That year there were a total of 9 bowl games played.

When we returned to bowl participation in 2001 there were 25 bowl games. AND we had special dispensation to play in that bowl because we didn't have a winning record. Since returning (and losing to Colorado St. in the NO Bowl) our bowl participation has been less than impressive. 

2002 (28 bowl games) we beat Cincinnati in NO Bowl

2003 (28 bowl games) loss to Memphis in NO Bowl

2004 (28 bowl games) loss to Southern Miss in NO Bowl

2013 (35 Bowl games) Beat UNLV in Heart of Dallas bowl

2016 (41 bowl games) loss to Army in Heart of Dallas Bowl

2017 (40 Bowl games) loss to Troy in NO Bowl

2018 (39 Bowl games) loss to Utah State in NM Bowl

2020 (26 Bowls,,,covid) loss to App St. in Myrtle Beach Bowl

2021 (38 Bowl games) Loss to Miami (Ohio) Frisco Classic Bowl.