Minimum number of wins for consideration

[RBP79]

Moral victories are losses.

It will take Devine Intervention for Seth to go better than 7-5 and win a bowl.

He should be replaced.

[GMG_Dallas]

1 hour ago, GrandGreen said:

You are making the assumption that UTSA team would have won on a fine clear day.

What I saw was a fired up ready to go home team take on a team that thought they would easily win.  None of which is weather related. 

What do you base your obvious assumption that NT was a better wet field team.  NT relied on running as they had the #1 rushing offense in the conference.  However, UTSA was number 2, so I don't see a big advantage. 

Emotion is often the equalizer in sports, and I think that is where NT had the advantage and that is generally created by the coaching staff.  

They would have. Your green glasses are deceiving you. Harris completed over 66% or his passes on the year. He was 50% in Denton. He had 59 passing yards. They had 6 fumbles, 3 of them lost, recovered fumbles still affected plays as they still generally end the plays progress, muffed punts, losing the ball on their own. It was a sloppy game. Had nothing to do with UNT being more fired up. I'm sorry you believe that. SL didn't outcoach an undefeated team.

Last year's UNT was a terrible team The "turnaround" was due to playing a 1 win team in FIU, a 4 win team in Rice, a 3 win team in Southern Miss, and a UTEP who's 6 wins came against teams that had a combined total of 23 wins. We beat nobody last year until getting lucky against UTSA with the weather.

So yes, everything tells me the multiple unforced UTSA muffed punts, the 6 total fumbles including many unforced, the 59 passing yards for a guy that otherwise averaged 240 passing yards per game, the 50% passing completion for a guy who otherwise completed over 66% of his passes, etc... would not have happened on a "fine clear day." UNT didn't win that game because we had some shut down defense. Now we can stop inflating the value of SL's "biggest" win. It does nothing but contribute to the notion that he was worth being retained for this year.

Edited September 29, 2022 by GMG_Dallas

[GrandGreen]

16 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

They would have. Your green glasses are deceiving you. Harris completed over 66% or his passes on the year. He was 50% in Denton. He had 59 passing yards. They had 6 fumbles, 3 of them lost, recovered fumbles still affected plays as they still generally end the plays progress, muffed punts, losing the ball on their own. It was a sloppy game. Had nothing to do with UNT being more fired up. I'm sorry you believe that. SL didn't outcoach an undefeated team.

Last year's UNT was a terrible team The "turnaround" was due to playing a 1 win team in FIU, a 4 win team in Rice, a 3 win team in Southern Miss, and a UTEP who's 6 wins came against teams that had a combined total of 23 wins. We beat nobody last year until getting lucky against UTSA with the weather.

So yes, everything tells me the multiple unforced UTSA muffed punts, the 6 total fumbles including many unforced, the 59 passing yards for a guy that otherwise averaged 240 passing yards per game, the 50% passing completion for a guy who otherwise completed over 66% of his passes, etc... would not have happened on a "fine clear day." UNT didn't win that game because we had some shut down defense. Now we can stop inflating the value of SL's "biggest" win. It does nothing but contribute to the notion that he was worth being retained for this year.

I can assure you that I am capable of reading stats.  I actually did that before I posted, I quoted some of them. 

You or I for that matter can only offer guesses at the outcome with different weather. 

The fact is that both teams, I believe played on the same field at the same time.  

If NT had not had multiple turnovers against Memphis than they would have won.  Maybe, but it is far from certain.  

 

[GMG_Dallas]

15 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

If NT had not had multiple turnovers against Memphis than they would have won.  Maybe, but it is far from certain.  

 

See, I'm not just reading stats like you are. I'm looking at the cause, timing, and impact on the game. UTSA had unforced turnovers on punts or simply while scrambling. Memphis created turnovers and returned 2 them for touchdowns. Big difference.

To add, SL has almost never outcoached a winning team in his time here. What makes you believe he did that last year against an 11-0 team? Also, recovering muffed punts doesn't count as outcoached.

Edited September 29, 2022 by GMG_Dallas

[97and03]

55 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

See, I'm not just reading stats like you are. I'm looking at the cause, timing, and impact on the game. UTSA had unforced turnovers on punts or simply while scrambling. Memphis created turnovers and returned 2 them for touchdowns. Big difference.

To add, SL has almost never outcoached a winning team in his time here. What makes you believe he did that last year against an 11-0 team? Also, recovering muffed punts doesn't count as outcoached.

Counts as better prepared, perhaps? Which is part of coaching, as I understand. 

[greenminer]

All this endless back and forth could be swatted away with one action, Mr. Litrell: just never lose again.

It's that simple.  I don't understand why you don't start right now.

[GrandGreen]

1 hour ago, GMG_Dallas said:

See, I'm not just reading stats like you are. I'm looking at the cause, timing, and impact on the game. UTSA had unforced turnovers on punts or simply while scrambling. Memphis created turnovers and returned 2 them for touchdowns. Big difference.

To add, SL has almost never outcoached a winning team in his time here. What makes you believe he did that last year against an 11-0 team? Also, recovering muffed punts doesn't count as outcoached.

I am not interested in defending Littrell, however you seem to be intent on criticizing him.   

I attended the game, so I based my comments on a little bit more than the stats. 

You have strongly insinuated that NT's victory was primary because of the weather not the play of the teams.   

Apparently, you are so anti-Littrell that you give no credit to the team, which won the game and it was not close.

Here are some more game stats that I am sure you will enjoy.  NT 456 yards and 27 fds on according to you a nearly  unplayable field.   

Nt also had the lead at 31-13 at the half, so I suspect they played to shorten the game in the second half. 

You can continue to think that the team won in spite of Littrell, not because of him if that makes you feel better. 

Again, Littrell's fate will be determined by how well he does in CUSA play.  If he beats another ranked team at the end of this year, he has a good chance to return. 

[GMG_Dallas]

16 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I am not interested in defending Littrell, however you seem to be intent on criticizing him.   

I attended the game, so I based my comments on a little bit more than the stats. 

You have strongly insinuated that NT's victory was primary because of the weather not the play of the teams.   

Apparently, you are so anti-Littrell that you give no credit to the team, which won the game and it was not close.

Here are some more game stats that I am sure you will enjoy.  NT 456 yards and 27 fds on according to you a nearly  unplayable field.   

Nt also had the lead at 31-13 at the half, so I suspect they played to shorten the game in the second half. 

You can continue to think that the team won in spite of Littrell, not because of him if that makes you feel better. 

Again, Littrell's fate will be determined by how well he does in CUSA play.  If he beats another ranked team at the end of this year, he has a good chance to return. 

Nothing about my hatred for Littrell is involved here. You said I was making excuses for wins. I simply said we shouldn't be getting too enamored by the final win total. We could very well win 6+ games this year but that doesn't necessarily mean SL has turned the corner. The UTSA game last year was just an example of how extreme circumstances can make somebody look better than what they really are. That can happen again this year but it doesn't mean crap about what SL has actually done these past few years.

Regarding yardage and first downs and taking a 31-13 lead to the half, here's some stats. 3 of the first half touchdowns came from drives of 26 yards, 15 yards, and 25 yards due to the fumbles. Outside of that, we punted 3 times in the first half. Scored 10 points on 2 long drives that weren't off turnovers. I'm not convinced all those turnovers happen without the weather. UTSA then pulled Frank Harris at the half, presumably to prepare for the more important conference championship game which they won. We can agree to disagree, I guess. I just won't give SL credit for one-off big wins he pulls out of his behind is all I'm saying.

[Got5onIt]

He needs to be canned no matter how he finishes out the year. We all know how this season is going to end, the same as the last 7 seasons.  You can keep flexing in that mirror every night, but I promise you tomorrow night you’ll still have man boobs. 

[Hunter Green]

I think you have to measure our performance against this years OOC games which is atrocious. We won't be in CUSA next year, so we shouldn't judge our "progress" on victories in our current conference. We've already shown we're not up to speed against AAC competition and that is where Seth should be judged. This year's trial period is over.

[MeanGreenTexan]

32 minutes ago, Hunter Green said:

I think you have to measure our performance against this years OOC games which is atrocious. We won't be in CUSA next year, so we shouldn't judge our "progress" on victories in our current conference. We've already shown we're not up to speed against AAC competition and that is where Seth should be judged. This year's trial period is over.

To be fair, we still have 4 more games to play against AAC competition, starting with this weekend's game.   What if NT finishes 4-2 in those games?

[wardly]

Guys, at the end of the day it's just football. Nobody died, so I think "hate" is really over the top. On another note, I have been against making a coaching change during the season. However I have heard media praise for Georgia Tech and Nebraska for pulling the plug early in the season because it gives them more time to evaluate candidates . The the hardest words I learned in business were "maybe your right". Maybe they are.

[MeanGreenTexan]

27 minutes ago, wardly said:

Guys, at the end of the day it's just football. Nobody died, so I think "hate" is really over the top. On another note, I have been against making a coaching change during the season. However I have heard media praise for Georgia Tech and Nebraska for pulling the plug early in the season because it gives them more time to evaluate candidates . The the hardest words I learned in business were "maybe your right". Maybe they are.

[Hunter Green]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

To be fair, we still have 4 more games to play against AAC competition, starting with this weekend's game.   What if NT finishes 4-2 in those games?

Do you think we'll win any of those games. On the road?

[MeanGreenTexan]

1 minute ago, Hunter Green said:

Do you think we'll win any of those games. On the road?

No.
But I suppose it's still a possibility.   1 game at a time, starting at home this weekend.

[MrAlien]

Everyone seems ready to fire this guy with out knowing who's next... do y'all really want roll the dice on another first time head coach, one with out any college recruiting experience?  How many current players would you expect to stick around for that?  not to mention the fact that they would probably wait until spring to put a coaching staff together leaving them way behind in recruiting and transfers. 

[Cr1028]

14 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

They would have. Your green glasses are deceiving you. Harris completed over 66% or his passes on the year. He was 50% in Denton. He had 59 passing yards. They had 6 fumbles, 3 of them lost, recovered fumbles still affected plays as they still generally end the plays progress, muffed punts, losing the ball on their own. It was a sloppy game. Had nothing to do with UNT being more fired up. I'm sorry you believe that. SL didn't outcoach an undefeated team.

Last year's UNT was a terrible team The "turnaround" was due to playing a 1 win team in FIU, a 4 win team in Rice, a 3 win team in Southern Miss, and a UTEP who's 6 wins came against teams that had a combined total of 23 wins. We beat nobody last year until getting lucky against UTSA with the weather.

So yes, everything tells me the multiple unforced UTSA muffed punts, the 6 total fumbles including many unforced, the 59 passing yards for a guy that otherwise averaged 240 passing yards per game, the 50% passing completion for a guy who otherwise completed over 66% of his passes, etc... would not have happened on a "fine clear day." UNT didn't win that game because we had some shut down defense. Now we can stop inflating the value of SL's "biggest" win. It does nothing but contribute to the notion that he was worth being retained for this year.

We were really lucky only UTSA had to play with a wet ball that day.

[Cr1028]

For me, he gets 2 more losses the rest of the season, the 3rd comes with walking papers.

[Rudy]

22 hours ago, Green Otaku said:

What record would you need to see to consider keeping SL? 

For me it's 8-4 to even think about seeing him next year. 7-5 isn't going to cut it, so in my eyes he has 2 more losses until he should be gone. 

[GMG_Dallas]

30 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

We were really lucky only UTSA had to play with a wet ball that day.

Wet balls affect the passing game. We had 13 passing TDs last year to their 31. Can't help y'all if y'all can't understand why a QB would be limited in that weather. Taking the ball out of Frank Harris' hands and taking the ball out of Aune's hands are two very different things. 

[Pseudo Nym]

1 hour ago, MrAlien said:

Everyone seems ready to fire this guy with out knowing who's next... do y'all really want roll the dice on another first time head coach, one with out any college recruiting experience?  How many current players would you expect to stick around for that?  not to mention the fact that they would probably wait until spring to put a coaching staff together leaving them way behind in recruiting and transfers. 

I think a majority on this board, at least those in this thread, have already..... I'm trying to say it nicely but this has already been hashed out on this board and there are a lot of threads on these topics, recent as well, within the past few weeks, months, extending it back to last season.

There's pages and pages where folks have contributed their perspective around these exact questions/thoughts/points that you raise here, I don't know how to say nicely but I think you're a little late to the party with this.  

They are worth going back and looking at as I found myself defending passionate positions which were countered and gave me great pause to think "damn, that's a really good point and blows my position out of the water."  It's why I like this forum.

Maybe some will rehash it for you or can post links back to these threads but incase you don't get a lot of responses to your questions, that would be why.

I think we've productively beaten the thing to death with regards to your questions/points and from that has emerged two camps:

1) Fire SL Now (As in today, yesterday, or the day before, etc) 

2) Fire SL At Seasons End

I suppose there is a third camp that this thread is trying to get some more insight on, separate from what I see as the two (and only two real options IMO) main camps or pools of thought.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Pseudo Nym

[MrAlien]

No need to fire him mid season, but you can let him know that he is not coming back, and begin looking for a replacement.  The foundation needs to be in place for next season the day after the current season is over, because thats when transfers and recruits really start paying attention. 

[Green Otaku]

3 hours ago, MrAlien said:

Everyone seems ready to fire this guy with out knowing who's next... do y'all really want roll the dice on another first time head coach, one with out any college recruiting experience?  How many current players would you expect to stick around for that?  not to mention the fact that they would probably wait until spring to put a coaching staff together leaving them way behind in recruiting and transfers. 

 

People were worried we would lose players to the portal last year if SL was let go, and we all know what happened. 

[MGNation92]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:34 PM, UNTcrazy727 said:

We’ve never won 10 games in program history. That’s an absurd bar to make Littrell meet. 

UTSA's program didn't exist 15 years ago and they won 11 and the conference title last year.

What's Seth's excuse?

[UNTcrazy727]

16 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

UTSA's program didn't exist 15 years ago and they won 11 and the conference title last year.

What's Seth's excuse?

It's insane to tell a coach he has to do something that's never been done in program history in order to keep his job. If you think that's fair then we'll just have to agree to disagree.