Super Pit Question

GMG_Dallas · February 28, 2022

42 minutes ago, MCMLXXX said:

Baylor is building a new $185 million Basketball Arena that will seat 7000.

https://www2.baylor.edu/baylorproud/2022/01/foster-pavilion-to-give-baylor-basketball-programs-a-new-riverfront-home/

And their total student enrollment is around 15k. USF's arena seats over 10k. Texas Tech over 15k. We could do this all day but smaller arenas are normal for the private schools which we are not. This is what the AAC currently has. At 7k, we'd have one of the smaller AAC arenas other than the private schools. And before you mention Houston's arena, I think theirs is too small.

Edited February 28, 2022 by GMG_Dallas

NT80 · February 28, 2022

1 hour ago, Clinetort said:

I think that if Wren prioritizes a new arena over adding baseball then there needs to be massive pushback. In my opinion that would be misallocation of funds. North Texas needs baseball to grow up as an athletic department. Delaying baseball so that Wren can build his resume with a new arena is ridiculous. Remember, Wren and his minions will leave and move on to other programs. It's up to us to advocate for what we want. We need baseball, it's time for pushback.

This. In addition, Wren has an underperforming major sport he needs to deal with, as in making a coaching change. The SuperPit is an excellent facility "as is". Fix the other broken sport first, then add a needed sport (baseball) to be a true year-round program. Priorities!

DentonLurker · February 28, 2022

2 hours ago, Danish43 said:

Listen Bud, the Super Pit is still a good looking building

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Bud.

1 hour ago, greenminer said:

Do people walk around programs that lack tradition and think, “you know what this lack of tradition needs? Amenities.”

I hope the athletic staff walks around and wonders about ways to fill the arena. We don't have the luxury of being a perennial power like Duke or Kansas where fans show up no matter what.

ColoradoEagle · February 28, 2022

50 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

And their total student enrollment is around 15k. USF's arena seats over 10k. Texas Tech over 15k. We could do this all day but smaller arenas are normal for the private schools which we are not. This is what the AAC currently has. At 7k, we'd have one of the smaller AAC arenas other than the private schools. And before you mention Houston's arena, I think theirs is too small.

USF's average attendance this year was 2,306. TTU is not a good comparison for a whole host of reasons. Below is the average AAC (and new AAC) attendance so far this season.

Green Otaku · February 28, 2022

3 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Oh my is this small time thinking. We can only ever get 4500 to show up so why have a 10k capacity. The same reason you try to keep good coaches and move into better conferences: to build a better athletic department. The last thing the school should want is to build a 7k arena only for it to be too small in a few years if the program finds sustained success.

Build a new one or don't. It's not my money. But don't box yourself into a space that may be too small in a few years. If 10k is too big, fine, but 7k is too small. Somewhere in the middle would be good. TCU and SMU's homes seat 6800 and 7000. Those are much smaller schools in terms of enrollment. Houston's arena seats just under 7,100 and is regularly sold out. Great, they sell out, but how do they grow attendance in the Big 12 now?

Some things we don't think about is less capacity means more ticket demand when seats are regularly sold out. That means higher ticket prices and more revenue for the AD. You said it yourself, Houston, a Final 4 team didn't deem it necessary to have an arena bigger than 7k. I have no doubt they did a thorough analysis of different capacities and they chose what's best for them.

keith · February 28, 2022

I had started this earlier in the season and updated it for the last few games.

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keith · February 28, 2022

We generally focus on this topic from the lens of athletics. What is the perspective of the University? Does the AD pay a fee to the University to use the facility? Is it just Men's and Women's basketball that use the SuperPit? At 15 home games a piece, that's 30 nights spread over 4 months or so (not counting any double headers). What else goes on in the SuperPit during this time of the year? Would the University fill those 30 nights with other events? Or, would it just sit idle and would things end up in disrepair due to lack of use? It's weird to think about, but there is a symbiotic relationship between buildings and humans.

Green Otaku · February 28, 2022

3 minutes ago, keith said:

We generally focus on this topic from the lens of athletics. What is the perspective of the University? Does the AD pay a fee to the University to use the facility? Is it just Men's and Women's basketball that use the SuperPit? At 15 home games a piece, that's 30 nights spread over 4 months or so (not counting any double headers). What else goes on in the SuperPit during this time of the year? Would the University fill those 30 nights with other events? Or, would it just sit idle and would things end up in disrepair due to lack of use? It's weird to think about, but there is a symbiotic relationship between buildings and humans.

Another thing I think about is what would the BB teams want? If they decide to build a state of the art BB practice facility next to Apogee and remain playing at the Pit would that mean the players would only come over for games? Would the players feel a weird disconnect with their home court? Would they rather have everything in 1 place (practice, film rooms, weight rooms, etc.) even if it meant walking over instead of having things split? Their input should also be heavily considered.

Dannymacfan · February 28, 2022

Just now, Green Otaku said:

state of the art BB practice facility next to Apogee

You do know they already have a state of the art practice facility over by the softball stadium? I believe it was built off a donation from the Keune family.

GMG_Dallas · February 28, 2022

38 minutes ago, ColoradoEagle said:

USF's average attendance this year was 2,306. TTU is not a good comparison for a whole host of reasons. Below is the average AAC (and new AAC) attendance so far this season.

I noted size and not attendance to compare the venues strictly. Getting fans in is the job of the AD. Should USF downgrade to a 3k seat facility to meet their average? That would be ridiculous. They just need to put out a better product and market better.

23 minutes ago, Green Otaku said:

Some things we don't think about is less capacity means more ticket demand when seats are regularly sold out. That means higher ticket prices and more revenue for the AD. You said it yourself, Houston, a Final 4 team didn't deem it necessary to have an arena bigger than 7k. I have no doubt they did a thorough analysis of different capacities and they chose what's best for them.

Negative, I disagree. Houston's arena was 10k capacity prior to 1998. They reduced it to just below 8500 in 98 and then to 7100 in 2017, prior to this latest success. When they started their renovation plans (funding, developing, etc...) in 2016, they hadn't been nearly as successful (I've attached their record by year for reference). It may have been a good size at the time, but I'm willing to bet if they knew they'd be going to the Big 12, they might have made a different decision.

31 minutes ago, texx2818 said:

It also wasn’t feasible for the UH arena to add more seats because of how it is built.

This is why we need to avoid building too small.

GMG_Dallas · February 28, 2022

9 minutes ago, texx2818 said:

The size is perfect. Games are sold out and always feel lively.

I think you're all missing the point. It's not about now it's about the future. Houston is going into the big 12 with a newly renovated undersized basketball arena. Let us not make the same mistake.

Green Otaku · February 28, 2022

37 minutes ago, Dannymacfan said:

You do know they already have a state of the art practice facility over by the softball stadium? I believe it was built off a donation from the Keune family.

I didn't, I always thought they practiced at The Pit.

ColoradoEagle · February 28, 2022

10 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

I noted size and not attendance to compare the venues strictly. Getting fans in is the job of the AD. Should USF downgrade to a 3k seat facility to meet their average? That would be ridiculous. They just need to put out a better product and market better.

Going back to 2013-14, their highest average attendance was 4,400 with an average of those years being more in the 2,500-3,500 range. If you were consulting them on building a new arena, would you suggest they build a 10k seat arena?

Below is our average attendance the entire time we've been in CUSA. If you were consulting Wren on the size of the new arena, what jumps out at you as "10k minimum required?"

Hell, even with the best team we've ever fielded, going into a perfect weekend game with a 21-4 record, getting top 25 votes, with the help of a dedicated fanbase in La Tech, and basically giving away tickets, we still were 1,500 short of a sellout.

I'd prefer how amazing it would look on ABC or ESPN to have a 7k sellout in actual TV quality lighting and so loud that you can't hear the announcers during a timeout. I can guarantee you that not everyone who wanted seats to the Mavs in 2011 could get them.

keith · February 28, 2022

This is just a hypothetical, but what if the University decided it didn't want the Super Pit anymore? If it needed a new multi-use facility, it's easier for the University to justify/secure the funding. Anyway, if the Super Pit is "fully depreciated" and offers to sell it to the AD for $1, would it be worth it? Now, without all the hassles of dealing with/coordinating with the University out of the way, is there any scenario where this would be a good idea? If they AD wants to take out seats for suites they can do so. Is the building simply beyond rehabilitation or could it be made to work (in a good way) at significantly less than a brand new facility would cost?

Green Otaku · February 28, 2022

3 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Negative, I disagree. Houston's arena was 10k capacity prior to 1998. They reduced it to just below 8500 in 98 and then to 7100 in 2017, prior to this latest success. When they started their renovation plans (funding, developing, etc...) in 2016, they hadn't been nearly as successful (I've attached their record by year for reference). It may have been a good size at the time, but I'm willing to bet if they knew they'd be going to the Big 12, they might have made a different decision.

This is why we need to avoid building too small.

Again, my point is that more capacity doesn't always equal more revenue. We would need to compare revenue of ticket sales from when they reduced capacity. I tried to look up numbers, but couldn't find anything.

It's the same reason NFL stadiums seat 60k-70k. They could add* 30k more seats and still sell out games, they don't because having a lower capacity allows more ticket demand and higher prices.

*typo

Edited February 28, 2022 by Green Otaku

GMG_Dallas · February 28, 2022

27 minutes ago, ColoradoEagle said:

Going back to 2013-14, their highest average attendance was 4,400 with an average of those years being more in the 2,500-3,500 range. If you were consulting them on building a new arena, would you suggest they build a 10k seat arena?

Below is our average attendance the entire time we've been in CUSA. If you were consulting Wren on the size of the new arena, what jumps out at you as "10k minimum required?"

Hell, even with the best team we've ever fielded, going into a perfect weekend game with a 21-4 record, getting top 25 votes, with the help of a dedicated fanbase in La Tech, and basically giving away tickets, we still were 1,500 short of a sellout.

I'd prefer how amazing it would look on ABC or ESPN to have a 7k sellout in actual TV quality lighting and so loud that you can't hear the announcers during a timeout. I can guarantee you that not everyone who wanted seats to the Mavs in 2011 could get them.

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this but it's not about the past, it's about the future. If you build for the present based on the past you're setting yourself up for failure moving forward. Houston's attendance did not justify more than 7k at the time. Fast forward 6 years and they're going to the Big 12 with an undersized arena they just dumped $60 million into. They regularly sell out in the AAC and when they don't, they're still in the range of 6500 fans. Add in the big 12 fans and hype in a major city like Houston and they could easily sell out a 10k arena every game. Texas Tech bought up all the general admission seats when they played in Austin a week ago so the students were kicked out to make room for paying fans. That's going to be fun for the U of H students when they can't go to their school's games.

To your question regarding if I were consulting Wren, I would recommend an arena in the range of 8,500 not including suites expandable for other events. I understand there's no point in having a huge arena that's empty but 7k is too small. I agree with wanting a more intimate experience but you put that low of a cap on your future attendance at the cost of $60 million. I personally hope they just renovate the facility because the location on campus is great. As a student, it was great being able to walk there after a late class and catch a game but I realize it may need too much work.

DentonLurker · February 28, 2022

1 hour ago, Dannymacfan said:

You do know they already have a state of the art practice facility over by the softball stadium?

There is a practice facility over there, but it's far from state of the art. If memory serves me correctly, it doesn't even have showers. At one point, the team's preference was still to practice at the Pit.

GMG_Dallas · February 28, 2022

28 minutes ago, texx2818 said:

I don’t know how you can call UH’s arena undersized heading to the Big 12. It’s a massive commuter school much like us, it’s essentially just our Houston twin. Crowds are there now but as soon as UH isn’t elite crowds will dwindle back down and then the arena will be cavernous.

See: football at UH

No it won't. This will be Big 12 athletics with a huge Texas footprint. Those fans travel and many are already in Houston. They'll be able to fill that arena every game before UH fans can get their tickets based on the other schools' fans alone. Houston's arena will be the smallest in the Big 12, smaller than TCU's, until Baylor builds theirs (mind you Baylor's enrollment is less than half of what Houston's is and is located in a small town). You can't downsize every time success eludes you because the fans are no longer coming in droves. You still have to be able to accommodate the large crowds when you do have a successful few years or when you host a big program/tournament.

If 8,500 is too big for us based on current attendance then so is 7,000. Should we just downsize to 4,500 to meet current attendance so we fill up every game?

wardly · February 28, 2022

4 hours ago, Clinetort said:

I think that if Wren prioritizes a new arena over adding baseball then there needs to be massive pushback. In my opinion that would be misallocation of funds. North Texas needs baseball to grow up as an athletic department. Delaying baseball so that Wren can build his resume with a new arena is ridiculous. Remember, Wren and his minions will leave and move on to other programs. It's up to us to advocate for what we want. We need baseball, it's time for pushback.

The last thing that an historically underfunded athletic department needs is a non revenue producing sport with a one to two million dollar annual deficit [ check Texas Tech] that would require a capital expenditure approaching twenty million dollars for a few hundred or so fans. What's wrong with this picture?

golfingomez · February 28, 2022

1 hour ago, keith said:

This is just a hypothetical, but what if the University decided it didn't want the Super Pit anymore? If it needed a new multi-use facility, it's easier for the University to justify/secure the funding. Anyway, if the Super Pit is "fully depreciated" and offers to sell it to the AD for $1, would it be worth it? Now, without all the hassles of dealing with/coordinating with the University out of the way, is there any scenario where this would be a good idea? If they AD wants to take out seats for suites they can do so. Is the building simply beyond rehabilitation or could it be made to work (in a good way) at significantly less than a brand new facility would cost?

Additionally (and i don't know, per usual), would a transaction to a new owner kickstart a requirement for the AD to make all necessary (and expensive changes) to become properly ADA compliant and fix additional issues?

Clinetort · February 28, 2022

4 minutes ago, wardly said:

The last thing that an historically underfunded athletic department needs is a non revenue producing sport with a one to two million dollar annual deficit [ check Texas Tech] that would require a capital expenditure approaching twenty million dollars for a few hundred or so fans. What's wrong with this picture?

We are no longer an underfunded athletic department. Time to grow up. Add Baseball!

ColoradoEagle · February 28, 2022

1 hour ago, GMG_Dallas said:

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this but it's not about the past, it's about the future. If you build for the present based on the past you're setting yourself up for failure moving forward. Houston's attendance did not justify more than 7k at the time. Fast forward 6 years and they're going to the Big 12 with an undersized arena they just dumped $60 million into. They regularly sell out in the AAC and when they don't, they're still in the range of 6500 fans. Add in the big 12 fans and hype in a major city like Houston and they could easily sell out a 10k arena every game. Texas Tech bought up all the general admission seats when they played in Austin a week ago so the students were kicked out to make room for paying fans. That's going to be fun for the U of H students when they can't go to their school's games.

We are not headed to the Big XII or any other P5 conference any time soon. The past does matter. It would be like if we built Apogee to hold 60,000 on day 1. We've still not sold that stadium out after 11 years, and that's only 30,850 for football...in Texas. These types of things cannot be willed into being.

A half full new arena looks a hell of a lot better than a 1/3rd full Super Pit. It would be the absolute least of our problems if we were headed to the Big XII with a 7k seat arena.

Here are the schools in the 6-7k range:

70	Utah St.	15	104709	6981
71	Saint Louis	17	117136	6890
72	Colorado	17	116761	6868
73	Weber St.	15	101326	6755
74	Northwestern	18	121580	6754
75	Pittsburgh	18	121473	6749
76	Miami (FL)	16	106316	6645
77	Old Dominion	16	105916	6620
78	Rutgers	17	106077	6240
79	Baylor	18	111916	6218
80	Temple	15	93168	6211
81	TCU	20	121401	6070
82	Marshall	19	115243	6065
83	Houston	20	121042	6052
84	Gonzaga	17	102000	6000

Three Big XII schools. Gonzaga (!). Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple...We're basically two levels below this currently. We're in the 'reliably 3500' range. We haven't even made it to the 'reliably 5k' range. I'll turn it around on people, and say that this "we need to build as big as possible, because one day..." thinking is actually the small time thinking.

And to put an exclamation point on this, when we started the Pit Crew back in '05, we were in the 'reliably 2k' range. It's been 16 years and the student body is now 27% larger (9k more students). We're fielding amazing teams that not only make it to the NCAA Tourney, but win. After all that, we've bumped up the attendance by 1500. Forgive me if I don't think we're due for a 5k bump anytime soon.

Quote

To your question regarding if I were consulting Wren, I would recommend an arena in the range of 8,500 not including suites expandable for other events. I understand there's no point in having a huge arena that's empty but 7k is too small.

But where do you get this thinking? These are our most attended games ever. Outside of one game this year, and one game last year (for our two best teams to ever play the sport), you'd have to go back 41 years for a game that wouldn't accommodate a ~7k crowd.

And I get the whole "don't look at the past" thing, although I don't agree with it. But with that logic, why not just build a 20k seat arena?

1	UNT vs SMU	January 21, 1977	10,600
2	UNT vs DePaul	December 16, 1980	9,100
3	UNT vs West Texas State	March 1, 1976	8,816
4	UNT vs Louisiana Tech	February 26, 2022	8,522
5	UNT vs Western Kentucky	February 9, 2019	8,195
6	UNT vs Texas	January 17, 1980	8,100
7	UNT vs Texas Tech	November 16, 2010	7,105
8	UNT vs Texas-Pan American	March 2, 1977	7,100
9	UNT vs Bradley	February 28, 1976	7,087
10	UNT vs Louisiana-Lafayette	February 18, 2012	6,921

Edited February 28, 2022 by ColoradoEagle

Christopher Walker · February 28, 2022

17 hours ago, golfingomez said:

You want a stage large enough to have 1,200 grads (plus all the pomp and circumstance)???? how many of those stages are there?

The Murch is a pretty badass building for performances

Circling back around to this... two things:

No stage worth its salt is ever going to be big enough to hold 1200 grads plus a platform party. That's lunacy.
The MPAC, while certainly unique, has been falling apart and sinking for a number of years now. Besides, its only reallllly suitable for large ensemble wind, orchestral, and choral music. Anything outside of those three (read: jazz) is miserable in that space.

GMG_Dallas · February 28, 2022

5 minutes ago, ColoradoEagle said:

We are not headed to the Big XII or any other P5 conference any time soon. The past does matter. It would be like if we built Apogee to hold 60,000 on day 1. We've still not sold that stadium out after 11 years, and that's only 31,500 for football...in Texas. These types of things cannot be willed into being.

A half full new arena looks a hell of a lot better than a 1/3rd full Super Pit. It would be the absolute least of our problems if we were headed to the Big XII with a 7k seat arena.

Here are the schools in the 6-7k range:

70 Utah St. 15 104709 6981
71 Saint Louis 17 117136 6890
72 Colorado 17 116761 6868
73 Weber St. 15 101326 6755
74 Northwestern 18 121580 6754
75 Pittsburgh 18 121473 6749
76 Miami (FL) 16 106316 6645
77 Old Dominion 16 105916 6620
78 Rutgers 17 106077 6240
79 Baylor 18 111916 6218
80 Temple 15 93168 6211
81 TCU 20 121401 6070
82 Marshall 19 115243 6065
83 Houston 20 121042 6052
84 Gonzaga 17 102000 6000
Three Big XII schools. Gonzaga (!). Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple...We're basically two levels below this currently. We're in the 'reliably 3500' range. We haven't even made it to the 'reliably 5k' range. I'll turn it around on people, and say that this "we need to build as big as possible, because one day..." thinking is actually the small time thinking.

But where do you get this thinking? These are our most attended games ever. Outside of one game this year, and one game last year (for our two best teams to ever play the sport), you'd have to go back 41 years for a game that wouldn't accommodate a ~7k crowd.

And I get the whole "don't look at the past" thing, although I don't agree with it. But with that logic, why not just build a 20k seat arena?

1 UNT vs SMU January 21, 1977 10,600
2 UNT vs DePaul December 16, 1980 9,100
3 UNT vs West Texas State March 1, 1976 8,816
4 UNT vs Louisiana Tech February 26, 2022 8,522
5 UNT vs Western Kentucky February 9, 2019 8,195
6 UNT vs Texas January 17, 1980 8,100
7 UNT vs Texas Tech November 16, 2010 7,105
8 UNT vs Texas-Pan American March 2, 1977 7,100
9 UNT vs Bradley February 28, 1976 7,087
10 UNT vs Louisiana-Lafayette February 18, 2012 6,921

Good Lord... I addressed this not being like an open air football stadium. You can build onto those. If in 20 years, UNT is a big time football program, you can add wings or build on top of what you have to add seats. You can't do that with a closed arena like you'd have for basketball. The AD is planning 6k to 7k seats. That's terrible. You can have a more intimate experience with sellout crowds without building such a small arena. I've suggested in multiple comments a good size would be 8,500. Big enough to sell out occasionally and grow into for regular sellouts if we find sustained success. This cap of 6k to 7k that's being proposed is absolutely horrible. You can't put that strict of a cap on occupancy levels.

ColoradoEagle · February 28, 2022

1 minute ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Good Lord... I addressed this not being like an open air football stadium. You can build onto those. If in 20 years, UNT is a big time football program, you can add wings or build on top of what you have to add seats. You can't do that with a closed arena like you'd have for basketball. The AD is planning 6k to 7k seats. That's terrible. You can have a more intimate experience with sellout crowds without building such a small arena. I've suggested in multiple comments a good size would be 8,500. Big enough to sell out occasionally and grow into for regular sellouts if we find sustained success. This cap of 6k to 7k that's being proposed is absolutely horrible. You can't put that strict of a cap on occupancy levels.

I get your frustration that you feel like you're repeating yourself that you can't expand a basketball arena. But get my frustration in that you've provided no evidence of the benefits of building a larger facility, only a "build it and they will come" mentality. A full 6k or 7k arena looks a hell of a lot better, builds excitement due to the scarcity, and at worst, looks better with our current attendance numbers.

8,500 is "well, one day..." thinking that doesn't make sense outside of wishful thinking.