USM, ODU, Marshall getting an early start on the CUSA evacuation

Rudy · February 12, 2022

Good for them. Help kill this dying conference.

Green Otaku · February 12, 2022

4 hours ago, Jonnyeagle said:

Why can’t we use them leaving as a valid reason to waive paying any exit fees? This is not the conference they promised us and not the one we signed up for. They can take their exit fees and show it where the Sun don’t shine!

As long as CUSA exists as an entity, there will be exit fees paid. I don't see how their situation affects the AAC 6 in any way.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Green Otaku

greenminer · February 12, 2022

Underdog Dynasty Podcast spent almost 30 minutes talking about this.

El Paso Eagle · February 12, 2022

Why are people worried? Judy's at the helm

outoftown · February 12, 2022

23 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

I doubt with six wins between them, any will lose sleep over being barred from the CUSA men’s tournament

Hadn't realized the incredible combined basketball futility that the belt is getting here.

For the rest. Its Judies fault. It always is. This is no different. She employed her favorite strategy: putting her head in the sand. I don't know why the belt schools are this much in a hurry, but in any case, there was no need to do that and not at least look like trying to put a good face on and just ask for the world.

untbowler · February 14, 2022

On 2/11/2022 at 4:25 PM, Arkstfan said:

I doubt with six wins between them, any will lose sleep over being barred from the CUSA men’s tournament and it’s no different from what JMU is facing. Sort of late to boot them off the baseball and softball schedules even if they get barred from the tournament, again same thing JMU is dealing with.

Men’s and women’s indoor track, need a few more hotel rooms than already booked to get them to Birmingham for the indoor track championship.

Women’s golf can accommodate them in Daytona. Men is at El Dorado, AR. Hotel rooms might be an issue there for the four newcomers.

Men’s and women’s tennis in Peachtree City, GA, they can handle a few more teams no sweat.

Bolded is a yes/no situation as adding the additional Women's Teams will add an extra day to the tournament, The Men actually might need to add an extra day as well with 2 more Men's Teams. Already play 2 matches at once and on the officials side, they come in from all over for the tournament (AR, TX, LA, TN, GA)

Will be interesting.

Arkstfan · February 15, 2022

On 2/12/2022 at 3:36 PM, outoftown said:

Hadn't realized the incredible combined basketball futility that the belt is getting here.

For the rest. Its Judies fault. It always is. This is no different. She employed her favorite strategy: putting her head in the sand. I don't know why the belt schools are this much in a hurry, but in any case, there was no need to do that and not at least look like trying to put a good face on and just ask for the world.

Same reason MTSU and FAU wanted out and Sun Belt was able to negotiate the same with them in a mere two months. We are coming up on four months and all three claim CUSA won’t even talk to them about it. But CUSA sure thought it was imperative for Sun Belt to release MTSU and FAU early.

Arkstfan · February 15, 2022

On 2/12/2022 at 7:12 AM, Wag Tag said:

That speaks to the infamous exit fee.

It’s written for dramatic effect.

Reality is CUSA has a pot of money it has been splitting 14 ways. Once the schools said they were leaving the departing teams get their distribution cut off.

League distributes roughly $21 million a year. They split that 14 ways until everyone said they were leaving. Nobody is writing CUSA a check to leave, they just don’t get their 1/14th cut wired in each year.

So the leftovers will get $4.2 million wired to their accounts until the league revenue changes and new members start sharing.

Article is also incorrect in saying the three will be charged around $2 million in entry fees. Sun Belt is not assessing an entry fee because ESPN is making the league whole with the TV deal. The point of entry fee is to offset the existing members getting less because of the split change. The folks at ESPN are boosting the TV revenue so there is no revenue drop to offset.

outoftown · February 15, 2022

3 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

Same reason MTSU and FAU wanted out and Sun Belt was able to negotiate the same with them in a mere two months. We are coming up on four months and all three claim CUSA won’t even talk to them about it. But CUSA sure thought it was imperative for Sun Belt to release MTSU and FAU early.

I agree mostly. I don't think the hurry for the future belt schools to get out this year makes all that much sense, but ignoring them is stupid. As i said (although maybe not very well expressed): judy should have at least negotiated. She could then have asked for the world as a starting position. But not at least talking looks bad and usually achieves nothing. In this case everyone will lose, because the lawyers will eat up more money.

Wag Tag · February 15, 2022

7 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

That speaks to the infamous exit fee.

It’s written for dramatic effect.

Reality is CUSA has a pot of money it has been splitting 14 ways. Once the schools said they were leaving the departing teams get their distribution cut off.

League distributes roughly $21 million a year. They split that 14 ways until everyone said they were leaving. Nobody is writing CUSA a check to leave, they just don’t get their 1/14th cut wired in each year.

So the leftovers will get $4.2 million wired to their accounts until the league revenue changes and new members start sharing.

Article is also incorrect in saying the three will be charged around $2 million in entry fees. Sun Belt is not assessing an entry fee because ESPN is making the league whole with the TV deal. The point of entry fee is to offset the existing members getting less because of the split change. The folks at ESPN are boosting the TV revenue so there is no revenue drop to offset.

I understand the SB entrance fee, but to think there is not an exit fee doesn’t make sense.

southsideguy · February 15, 2022

I can see Judy at the next meeting saying, Look at all the money I brought in for the conference, I should get a raise.

Arkstfan · February 15, 2022

4 hours ago, Wag Tag said:

I understand the SB entrance fee, but to think there is not an exit fee doesn’t make sense.

The fee is you forego a payment from CUSA for the 2021-22 and 2022-23 seasons and all future seasons because you left.

The three would rather go to Sun Belt, get paid for 2022-23 and pay for that privilege in addition to not taking a share of CUSA revenue.

UNTLifer · February 15, 2022

4 hours ago, southsideguy said:

I can see Judy at the next meeting saying, Look at all the money I brought in for the conference, I should get a raise.

Nah, she'll just request a full-size Jeep.

C-Usa Commissioner Judy MacLeod Sitting in a Kid's Jeep Before the C-Usa Championship Game | College Football Meme on ME.ME

Wag Tag · February 15, 2022

Will have to Pay!

Wag Tag · February 15, 2022

1 hour ago, Arkstfan said:

The fee is you forego a payment from CUSA for the 2021-22 and 2022-23 seasons and all future seasons because you left.

The three would rather go to Sun Belt, get paid for 2022-23 and pay for that privilege in addition to not taking a share of CUSA revenue.

If you are leaving now what forego revenue are you giving up? Makes no sense. If anything you are going to forego revenue to join a conference upgrade.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Wag Tag

greenminer · February 15, 2022

56 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

Will have to Pay!

Not sure if you caught this, but I think what ArkStFan is trying to say is the fee is paid but not an up-front cash payment. It is money lost because you forfeit your right to future conference payouts (like the CUSA NCAA March Madness units)

Wag Tag · February 15, 2022

6 minutes ago, greenminer said:

Not sure if you caught this, but I think what ArkStFan is trying to say is the fee is paid but not an up-front cash payment. It is money lost because you forfeit your right to future conference payouts (like the CUSA NCAA March Madness units)

There is no future if you are not in the conference!!!!! Read the S Miss quote, it is a pay out.

greenminer · February 15, 2022

1 minute ago, Wag Tag said:

There is no future if you are not in the conference!!!!! Read the S Miss quote, it is a pay out.

Exactly. Forfeit future payouts = exit fee. I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs, confused and talking about the same thing, or what.

El Paso Eagle · February 15, 2022

1 hour ago, greenminer said:

Exactly. Forfeit future payouts = exit fee. I'm not sure if we're splitting hairs, confused and talking about the same thing, or what.

I believe that the amounts to be "paid" are reduced by holding back league revenue, but if those revenues are less than the payout they will owe. Now perhaps they could get creative and agree to play future games at CUSA schools??

keith · February 15, 2022

On 2/12/2022 at 8:52 AM, Rudy said:

Good for them. Help kill this dying conference.

But the conference isn't dying. It is certainly changing, but not dying. Everyone else is living up to their obligations except these three. They wanted out earlier than the required 14-month notice and C-USA said, no. They didn't like that answer, so like spoiled brats are taking their ball and going home and causing a mess for everyone (including us). The three schools and the Sun Belt by taking them in early are the offending party here, not C-USA IMHO. C-USA is living up to its obligations. These three are not.

El Paso Eagle · February 16, 2022

5 hours ago, keith said:

But the conference isn't dying. It is certainly changing, but not dying. Everyone else is living up to their obligations except these three. They wanted out earlier than the required 14-month notice and C-USA said, no. They didn't like that answer, so like spoiled brats are taking their ball and going home and causing a mess for everyone (including us). The three schools and the Sun Belt by taking them in early are the offending party here, not C-USA IMHO. C-USA is living up to its obligations. These three are not.

We we left the Sun Belt there were comments that it would never be a good conference. Leadership can make a big difference. While I think that Judy has been bad, the real issue is with the presidents (our included) that have keep her in that position. They could have made changes if the league's success was really the important issue.

Arkstfan · February 16, 2022

11 hours ago, Wag Tag said:

If you are leaving now what forego revenue are you giving up? Makes no sense. If anything you are going to forego revenue to join a conference upgrade.

CUSA has an income stream for various sources

NCAA Units. Will early departure lower that? No.

CFB distribution. Will early departure lower that? Eh that’s pretty speculative. CUSA has been running 4th in the performance pool so coin flip as to whether that stays or changes. CUSA will still have 11 members so will get the base $10 million(ish)

The only change to the revenue stream is whether or not the TV partners cut the distribution if the three leave. If they cut it, then it’s all real simple, they owe for the cut in 2022-23 distributions.

Imagine you and 13 friends own a business as partners. The business has a pretty stable income stream (say lot of money tied up bonds). The partnership agreement says if you leave for a competitor you work for a year without a partnership distribution and forego any future distributions because you forfeit your equity.

What happens if you quit to go to work for a competitor, you work for one year and lose your equity and right to partnership distributions in perpetuity. Now what if your offer is such that you want to forego the year of work? They can sue you and ask for specific performance and make you stay, but courts in general don’t like specific performance unless dealing with something unique with no substitute. Say you are buying a Honus Wagner baseball card or a Monet painting. Hard to substitute if the seller cannot deliver. Otherwise you go to money damages. What are the money damages? Well there is the value of the home games schools would lose except when you deal with money damages, you have a duty to mitigate. If you make an 8 game slate out of the 11 members there’s no home gate revenue lost and that home gate isn’t shared so CUSA doesn’t have a dog in that fight. The individual schools would but then if say UNT sues USM, USM is going to sue CUSA and ask them to be joined as a necessary party because they failed to mitigate by adjusting the schedule thus carrying some liability to UNT as well.

The only logical monetary damages would be the loss of revenue but as noted CUSA won’t lose NCAA unit revenue, won’t lose base CFB revenue, performance pool is speculative, loss of attendance at CUSA championship events? Speculative. TV and sponsorship income is it. If the Bank of Norfolk is a CUSA sponsor and drops it a year early that we can assign value to. If CBSSN cuts the payment, we can assign value to that.

The damages just aren’t likely to be a lot.

The only difference in UNT and USM is if CUSA revenue declines because UNT leaves, that’s tough noogies for CUSA since you are riding it out. USM would owe 1/3rd of what CUSA loses in revenue in 2022-23 that resulted from the departure.

Well 6 members of CUSA don’t consider it so unique and valuable that they

Arkstfan · February 16, 2022

10 hours ago, greenminer said:

Not sure if you caught this, but I think what ArkStFan is trying to say is the fee is paid but not an up-front cash payment. It is money lost because you forfeit your right to future conference payouts (like the CUSA NCAA March Madness units)

Exactly.

A conference is an equity partnership. Each member gets one share of equity in the league. When Bill Gates retired, he retained his equity in Microsoft in the form of stock and is entitled to the dividends, voting rights, and hopefully for him gain in stock prices in the future. With a conference, if you leave you give your equity (stock) in the conference back to the league.

If UNT goes to the Sweet 16 this year, you won’t see any of the money other than the NCAA travel reimbursement because you’ve turned in your stock and CUSA will collect the three units you contributed for the next six years.

CUSA will snag roughly $840,000 from your run in the 2023-24 NCAA distribution (runs a year behind) and for each of the five years following. A $5 million income stream you have a 1/14th interest in (probably more, most leagues bonus some of that to the school earning it) but you traded in your equity and right to future payments to depart the partnership.

Arkstfan · February 16, 2022

8 hours ago, keith said:

But the conference isn't dying. It is certainly changing, but not dying. Everyone else is living up to their obligations except these three. They wanted out earlier than the required 14-month notice and C-USA said, no. They didn't like that answer, so like spoiled brats are taking their ball and going home and causing a mess for everyone (including us). The three schools and the Sun Belt by taking them in early are the offending party here, not C-USA IMHO. C-USA is living up to its obligations. These three are not.

You are confused.

They are all willing to live up to their obligations to CUSA by paying financial compensation to leave early. They aren’t asking for a free pass.

Back when FAU and MTSU were invited to CUSA, this board would have been enraged had Sun Belt refused to negotiate an early departure. Had AAC offered you a slot next year, you would be screaming your head off if CUSA refused to negotiate.

FIU left the Atlantic Sun a year early to join the Sun Belt and they paid the ASun in return for that just as FAU and MTSU did leaving Sun Belt. Sun Belt negotiated an early release for UCF.

Army paid CUSA $400,000 to leave a year early.

The only thing different here is CUSA violating the norms by refusing to negotiate a price for early departure.

Frankly I’m not sure if y’all are in love with CUSA and having second thoughts about leaving or are just jealous you can’t go out early too.

keith · February 16, 2022

7 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

You are confused.

They are all willing to live up to their obligations to CUSA by paying financial compensation to leave early. They aren’t asking for a free pass.

Back when FAU and MTSU were invited to CUSA, this board would have been enraged had Sun Belt refused to negotiate an early departure. Had AAC offered you a slot next year, you would be screaming your head off if CUSA refused to negotiate.

FIU left the Atlantic Sun a year early to join the Sun Belt and they paid the ASun in return for that just as FAU and MTSU did leaving Sun Belt. Sun Belt negotiated an early release for UCF.

Army paid CUSA $400,000 to leave a year early.

The only thing different here is CUSA violating the norms by refusing to negotiate a price for early departure.

Frankly I’m not sure if y’all are in love with CUSA and having second thoughts about leaving or are just jealous you can’t go out early too.

Hahahah...no, not confused and I don't think anyone here is suffering any form of buyer's remorse.

What I hear is, "the Conference won't negotiate with us." My take is the Conference is saying there is nothing to negotiate and these three schools don't like that so are walking away unilaterally. Would they feel better if they sat across a table and heard, "there is no price the Conference would entertain that would allow for early departure. You are bound by the 14-month notice you accepted and agreed to. Meeting adjourned." How is that any different? Or does it "open a door" for binding arbitration or something?

Just because two parties "negotiate" doesn't mean the outcome will be any different. Would the conference negotiate with each university independently or as a group? What if there is an acceptable price the Conference would accept for early departure and only 1 of the 3 was willing/capable to pay?

I don't think there is any love-loss here for the current C-USA leadership. When the dominos began to fall with the latest rearrangement of the deck chairs kicked off by Texas/OU and the SEC, there was a general timeline set for everything to fall into place. Everyone probably would have liked it to happen immediately, but that's not the way it works and with such a massive reorganization it was going to take some time to get everything in place.

If I'm being completely selfish I really only care about what this means for UNT's schedule next season. Will we have to replace two games with FCS opponents? Will we lose a home game? I haven't looked at other conference games affected. Maybe we just load up with other conference mates that also have holes in their schedules now even if it means playing someone twice?

Edited February 16, 2022 by keith