As Far As I'm Concerned, Enough Has Been Said...

golfingomez · November 10, 2021

35 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Littrell came in and replaced the coach who is responsible for the worst FBS-to-FCS loss in NCAA history. This cannot be the benchmark. Littrell created his own momentum, then crashed his own momentum. You were saying you want (or "wouldn't mind") Littrell back next season just yesterday. I cannot comprehend that.

Again:
Sonny Dykes is a prime example:
3 Seasons at G5 LATech - 22-15 with a WAC championship. ("Oh Wow! Sonny is a winner! A G5 program-builder! He's gonna get a shot at a P5!")
4 Seasons at P5 Cal - 19-30 ("Oh no! He sucks! His time at LATech was a mirage! No one should ever hire him as a HC again!")
4 Seasons at G5 SMU - 28-16 ("TCU, TXTech, etc... should hire Sonny! Look at what he's done at SMU!")

And again, as a reference, Fuente has a WINNING RECORD at VATech. Not Sonny's 19-30 record.

I dunno about you, but I'd take 28-16 with several top 25 rankings peppered-in over a 4-year stretch!
IMO, I don't think there's a reason Fuente couldn't re-create the Memphis magic here in Denton.

correct on the first paragraph, except that UNT had been historically bad for the 10 years prior to Littrell, not just one bad game.

I have no idea if Fuente would be good here or not, my comments were solely about Littrell. However, I'm sure you would find a lot of the same sentiments on VaTech boards as we had when McCarney was here ("he can't recruit", "he only had success with Beamer's players"). I don't think he's in the same realm as McCarney, but i bet the Hokies do. I'd bet there's probably a 60/40 shot he can recreate what Seth has done here, but to assume that he is going to deliver 10 win seasons with an undoubtedly bigger contract than Littrell's would be a big leap. A lot of things have to happen to have that level of sustainable success, especially at the G5 level. I'd probably put that at a 20/80 shot.

I guess the question we all weigh is, what do we expect from our coach, and what dollar amount do we put on that?

Wag Tag · November 10, 2021

I would take a serious look at all head coaches that had success at the G5 level but failed at the P5 level. I would also consider P5 failures that are having success as a P5 OC or DC. Fuente may be let go after having a winning record and maybe a winning season.

Cr1028 · November 10, 2021

30 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I don't think many of us saw McCasland coming. He just started at ARSt, had a good thing going, and had a buyout that we didn't think NT could cover!
Wren made it happen.
Who knows? Maybe there's a G5 coach out there that has the same pedigree as McCasland that none of us are thinking of, but Wren is?

Another coach I think Fuente would compare favorably to (probably moreso than Dykes due to the P5 winning record):
Jim McElwain:
3 Seasons at COSt - 22-15
3 Seasons at FL - 22-12
3 Seasons at CentMI - 16-13 (looks like Covid year jacked them up playing in front of an empty home stadium, and this year's 5-4 record is due to not one, but 2 money games VS LSU & Mizzou). I think it's safe to say UNT puts more into our program than CentMI does ($27.9mil budget compared to our $40mil budget).

24 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

Really good point. Any idea on current salary?

16 minutes ago, UNT Texas Hooligan said:

$840,000 according to this latest article.

https://www.toledoblade.com/sports/college/2021/10/15/toledo-coach-candle-still-comfortably-highest-paid-coach-in-the-mac/stories/20211014093

He was also getting paid 3 years after getting fired from Florida by Florida due to his buyout.

Shark F’er! 😂

Edited November 10, 2021 by Cr1028

MeanGreenTexan · November 10, 2021

1 minute ago, golfingomez said:

correct on the first paragraph, except that UNT had been historically bad for the 10 years prior to Littrell, not just one bad game.

I have no idea if Fuente would be good here or not, my comments were solely about Littrell. However, I'm sure you would find a lot of the same sentiments on VaTech boards as we had when McCarney was here ("he can't recruit", "he only had success with Beamer's players"). I don't think he's in the same realm as McCarney, but i bet the Hokies do. I'd bet there's probably a 60/40 shot he can recreate what Seth has done here, but to assume that he is going to deliver 10 win seasons with an undoubtedly bigger contract than Littrell's would be a big leap. A lot of things have to happen to have that level of sustainable success, especially at the G5 level. I'd probably put that at a 20/80 shot.

I guess the question we all weigh is, what do we expect from our coach, and what dollar amount do we put on that?

I'm pretty sure Fuente would understand he's not gonna get paid like a P5 coach at a G5 school. Just not gonna happen. But, there are only 130 (well now more thanks to Judy) D1 HC opportunities. I would bet he'd take a salary similar to what Littrell is making now, which would still put him as a top-paid G5 coach.

golfingomez · November 10, 2021

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I'm pretty sure Fuente would understand he's not gonna get paid like a P5 coach at a G5 school. Just not gonna happen. But, there are only 130 (well now more thanks to Judy) D1 HC opportunities. I would bet he'd take a salary similar to what Littrell is making now, which would still put him as a top-paid G5 coach.

Sorry, to clarify, my point was that UNT's next coach (Fuente or otherwise), will have a salary of $1.8MM or higher.

MeanGreenTexan · November 10, 2021

Just now, golfingomez said:

Sorry, to clarify, my point was that UNT's next coach (Fuente or otherwise), will have a salary of $1.8MM or higher.

Right. And I suppose that is for Wren to decide upon. It's all a risk. This will be his first HC hire (not extension). Hopefully he'll bake in some safeguards like what he did with Littrell this past offseason.

UNT Texas Hooligan · November 10, 2021

18 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

Dennis Franchione was (by your definition) small time when he coached at Pittsburg St. (D-2), then went on to Tx St (1-AA at the time) when New Mexico saw his ability as a head coach and then TCU noticed it too.

Now, for all you concrete/literal thinkers out there I AM NOT suggesting that we try to lure Dennis Franchione out of retirement. What I am doing is suggesting that Carthal might be the next Dennis Franchione on his way up. We should stop being dismissive of him. My God! when did we get so full of ourselves.

Go 'Rillas.

I get what you are saying, I'm all about trying to get the next great coach on his rise. My main hesitation about Carthel is that he hasn't exactly been lighting it up at SFA the past 3 years. He's also a career FCS'er. Zero coaching or playing experience in FBS.

For the money, I'm sure we could find someone with a bit more experience and pedigree.

golfingomez · November 10, 2021

10 minutes ago, golfingomez said:

correct on the first paragraph, except that UNT had been historically bad for the 10 years prior to Littrell, not just one bad game.

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse here, but Littrell took over a joke of a program. Over the previous ten seasons, UNT had gone 34-87 and he brought it to respectability (34-37 under Littrell).

Also, I picked ten seasons because it's a nice round number, I didn't include the 2-9 season from 2005.

Cr1028 · November 10, 2021

38 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Or, Carthel sucks at TXSt, or whatever other FBS school gives him a shot, and gets canned, while Fuente recaptures his mojo he had at Memphis? Could this happen? ...A decade ago?

Comparatively, who has sucked less in their career? Because I believe Carthel is sitting at 74-34 overall with a D2 natty under his belt in just his 9th season as a head coach. Fuente is at 68-54 in his tenth season overall with 5 losing seasons and 5 winning seasons. Colby has had a single losing season in his 9 years as a head coach and that was his first year at SFA. He damn near beat Texas Tech and Sam Houston this year. Call it lack of competition but last I checked, you still have to show up and play the games even at the D2 level.

If someone gets Carthel before we do, we will regret it but it is what it is. He isn’t the type to job hop. I truly believe we are one of a very small number of jobs he would leave SFA for. It would be a mistake not to entertain that idea if Seth is ever let go.

If Fuente was lightning in a G5 bottle, every other G5 knows it and will be waiting outside the Hokie athletic facilities. He isn’t under anyone’s radar, he has been thoroughly studied. Wren is very familiar with him and will know if he is as good as you say and if he could be good here .

Edited November 10, 2021 by Cr1028

SilverEagle · November 10, 2021

14 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Or, Carthel sucks at TXSt, or whatever other FBS school gives him a shot, and gets canned, while Fuente recaptures his mojo he had at Memphis? Could this happen? ...A decade ago?

I think that was the hope when McCarney was hired. That worked out so beautifully didn't it?....both financially and publicity-wise. 🙄

I think that Carthel represents far less of a risk. How can North Texas look bad when we give a young guy on his way up a chance. He's from West Texas. Between he and his father, they probably know every HS coach in Texas. HIs father was known as a good recruiter and one of the hardest working coaches to ever coach at WTA&M. Both Carthel's always went with high octane offenses.

El Paso Eagle · November 10, 2021

52 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

or Keeler from SHSU.

Would think that Keeler has to be frustrated with the lack of support given their success

Cr1028 · November 10, 2021

2 hours ago, UNT Texas Hooligan said:

My main hesitation about Carthel is that he hasn't exactly been lighting it up at SFA the past 3 years. He's also a career FCS'er. Zero coaching or playing experience in FBS.

Let’s exclude his first season at SFA in 2019 after taking over a 2-10 program.

In 2020, his team went 6-4. The 4 losses? UTEP, UTSA, SMU, and Memphis. He went undefeated against like competitors last year.

This season he has 3 losses. A 6-point loss to Texas Tech in Lubbock, a 1-point loss to defending national champion Sam Houston at NRG, and a 4-point loss to Jacksonville State (who beat Florida State this year) in Jacksonville, Alabama. Their points for on the season is 314 while points against is only 177. That is an average score of 35-13. I’d say he is doing very well in Nacogdoches.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Cr1028

El Paso Eagle · November 10, 2021

7 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

I think that was the hope when McCarney was hired. That worked out so beautifully didn't it?....both financially and publicity-wise. 🙄

I think that Carthel represents far less of a risk. How can North Texas look bad when we give a young guy on his way up a chance. He's from West Texas. Between he and his father, they probably know every HS coach in Texas. HIs father was known as a good recruiter and one of the hardest working coaches to ever coach at WTA&M. Both Carthel's always went with high octane offenses.

Not to mentions he seems to want to be here ....

UNT Texas Hooligan · November 10, 2021

6 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Not to mentions he seems to want to be here ....

Can't hate on that kind of passion. Especially considering what we currently have.

MGNation92 · November 10, 2021

I'd be happy with either Fuente or Carthel. One thing to note

Carthel is 12-16(so far) in his three seasons at SFA

Fuente is 17-16(so far) in his last three seasons at VT.

Carthel is a rising star for sure, but I'd be wary about his potential success at the FBS level.

Fuente, on the other hand has helped build up 2 FBS programs(TCU and Memphis), and despite recent down years (with SKY HIGH expectations from the fanbase and donors), he still has a winning record at VT.

Fuente is my preferred candidate with Carthel being second if those are our only options. I'd be willing to bet there will be a lot more than just two coaches vying for this job when it opens.

Rudy · November 10, 2021

1 hour ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Not many fanbases wish for a coach to lose so he can get fired so hopefully we can hire him

Also, not many fanbases want their program to win just enough so they don't address a coaching staff that has been underperforming for 3 years.

Mean Green Matt · November 10, 2021

2 hours ago, NTSU52 said:

Dodge and McCarney built up momentum?

They sure did. Momentum can go more than one direction, my friend.

MeanGreenTexan · November 10, 2021

50 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Comparatively, who has sucked less in their career? Because I believe Carthel is sitting at 74-34 overall with a D2 natty under his belt in just his 9th season as a head coach. Fuente is at 68-54 in his tenth season overall with 5 losing seasons and 5 winning seasons. Colby has had a single losing season in his 9 years as a head coach and that was his first year at SFA. He damn near beat Texas Tech and Sam Houston this year. Call it lack of competition but last I checked, you still have to show up and play the games even at the D2 level.

If someone gets Carthel before we do, we will regret it but it is what it is. He isn’t the tyoe to job hop. I truly believe we are one of a very small number of jobs he would leave SFA for. It would be a mistake not to entertain that idea if Seth is ever let go.

If Fuente was lightning in a G5 bottle, every other G5 knows it and will be waiting outside the Hokie athletic facilities. He isn’t under anyone’s radar, he has been thoroughly studied. Wren is very familiar with him and will know if he is as good as you say and if he could be good here .

I mean, the difference between football at A&M Commerce and North Texas is much greater than North Texas to Texas A&M. Success at that level definitely does not guarantee success at the FBS level.

Also, Fuente has 35 weeks with a team he coached in the top 25, including multiple weeks both last season and this season. That is a major feather in a coach's cap!

As for the last paragraph... I think you're right. That's why NT's situation (budgetarily & hierarchically) puts us in a very good position to grab him. There are maybe 5-10 G5 jobs out there better than NT right now (not including those moving to the Big12): SMU, Memphis, South FL, BoiseSt, SDSU... COSt?, Tulane?, now you start getting into murky water.
Of those jobs, SMU might be one to watch if Sonny leaves, although they really like lil' Riley.
Memphis may want to go back to the well as they're struggling a little this year, but they'll have a hefty buyout of their new guy.
South Florida is definitely gonna be in the market, and might look at him? Currently paying $1.8mil/yr. We could match this and he'd be closer to home again.
BoiseSt is stuck with a rookie coach and a high buyout.
SDSU - Brady Hoke not going anywhere.

EDIT: While I'm on the comparison train, if Carthel is truly a shooting star about to set the world on fire, we could maybe compare him to Urban Meyer!
2 Seasons at Bowling Green - Cutting his chops there to a 17-6 record.
2 Seasons at Utah - his 2nd, more prestigious G5 stop before going on to FL.

On the flipside: Everett Withers
2 seasons at James Madison - Amazing FCS run: 18-7 (1 of those losses to P5 Maryland)
3 seasons at TX St. - 7-28. Just awful.

Let's be Carthel's Utah, not his Bowling Green. Lest we risk being his TXSt.

Edited November 10, 2021 by MeanGreenTexan

El Paso Eagle · November 10, 2021

9 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I mean, the difference between football at A&M Commerce and North Texas is much greater than North Texas to Texas A&M. Success at that level definitely does not guarantee success at the FBS level.

Also, Fuente has 35 weeks with a team he coached in the top 25, including multiple weeks both last season and this season. That is a major feather in a coach's cap!

As for the last paragraph... I think you're right. That's why NT's situation (budgetarily & hierarchically) puts us in a very good position to grab him. There are maybe 5-10 G5 jobs out there better than NT right now (not including those moving to the Big12): SMU, Memphis, South FL, BoiseSt, SDSU... COSt?, Tulane?, now you start getting into murky water.
Of those jobs, SMU might be one to watch if Sonny leaves, although they really like lil' Riley.
Memphis may want to go back to the well as they're struggling a little this year, but they'll have a hefty buyout of their new guy.
South Florida is definitely gonna be in the market, and might look at him? Currently paying $1.8mil/yr. We could match this and he'd be closer to home again.
BoiseSt is stuck with a rookie coach and a high buyout.
SDSU - Brady Hoke not going anywhere.

I would prefer Carthel or Fuente to what we have now. Time for a change, Need to move forward.

RBP79 · November 10, 2021

The best thing Seth has done at NT is hire Graham Harrell who found and signed Mason Fine. When Harrell left the wheels started shaking and when Mason graduated they fell off.

TheColonyEagle · November 10, 2021

So how safe is Mike Norvell? If he and Fuente were both available? Who would we want? Both Memphis, but Norvell was actually more successful at Memphis than Fuente was. Was it with Fuente's talent? Well....we have talent...what would Norvell do here?

https://www.coacheshotseat.com/CoachesHotSeatRanking.htm

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Cr1028 · November 10, 2021

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Success at that level definitely does not guarantee success at the FBS level.

Let's be Carthel's Utah, not his Bowling Green. Lest we risk being his TXSt.

Success at any level, G5 included, does not guarantee success at any particular school. I’d take my chances on the guy that hasn’t found a way to fail yet but that’s just me. I may be setting myself up for another Todd Dodge situation but I know that nobody has looked under rocks for quality players like Carthel does. He knows the ins and outs of rural Texas like few other coaches. He can find you the next Jeff Wilson, I’m not convinced a P5 bounceback still has that level of drive or fire in him.

As far as being his Utah rather than his Bowling Green, there isn’t a person in this country outside of our little bubble that thinks our job is closer to a Utah than it is to a Bowling Green. To think otherwise is lunacy. You seriously think a coach good enough to get hired away from Texas State would even consider North Texas? Come on man. Your view of our position in the college football heirarchy is seriously skewed.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Cr1028

MeanGreenTexan · November 10, 2021

3 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Success at any level, G5 included, does not guarantee success at any particular school. I’d take my chances on the guy that hasn’t found a way to fail yet but that’s just me. I may be setting myself up for another Todd Dodge situation but I know that nobody has look under rocks for quality players like Carthel does. He knows the ins and outs of rural Texas like few other coaches. He can find you the next Jeff Wilson, I’m not convinced a P5 bounceback still has that level of drive or fire in him.

As far as being his Utah rather than his Bowling Green, there isn’t a person in this country outside of our little bubble that thinks our job is closer to a Utah than it is to a Bowling Green. To think otherwise is lunacy. You seriously think a coach good enough to get hired away from Texas State would even consider North Texas? Come on man. Your view of our position in the college football heirarchy is seriously skewed.

Seth Littrell's salary, NT's future conference affiliation and facilities say otherwise. I feel good about my position. If you know of other G5 schools HC situations that are better than NT's other than the ones I listed above, please let me know!

Probably why we were able to pull McCasland from ARSt. after a horrible Benford tenure.