Does Wren New Contract Make Financial Sense?

[El Paso Eagle]

Wren did a great job helping to get in the AAC, but are we overpaying again to try and keep someone? I don't know the guaranteed amounts or buyouts, but the latest number I can find are for 2019-2020, but it looks like Wren will be the highest paid AD in the AAC (Based on UCF leaving). He looks to have already been the highest paid in C-USA. The G5 average looks to be around $400K total compensation. It seems like most schools paying their ADs this type of money have a $100M+ budget. This is not to bash Wren, but is this worth it? Time will tell. But maybe we should stop with the "we can't afford to" speak when questioning if we need to make a change at HC.  

 

 

[All About UNT]

On 11/3/2021 at 10:21 PM, El Paso Eagle said:

Wren did a great job helping to get in the AAC, but are we overpaying again to try and keep someone? I don't know the guaranteed amounts or buyouts, but the latest number I can find are for 2019-2020, but it looks like Wren will be the highest paid AD in the AAC (Based on UCF leaving). He looks to have already been the highest paid in C-USA. The G5 average looks to be around $400K total compensation. It seems like most schools paying their ADs this type of money have a $100M+ budget. This is not to bash Wren, but is this worth it? Time will tell. But maybe we should stop with the "we can't afford to" speak when questioning if we need to make a change at HC.  

 

 

Stop focusing on the FB situation. He has his first opportunity here to hire his own FB HC.  If he jacks that up then... yeah we can hold that against him.  He has made massive facility improvements and has certainly gotten our major donors to step up... we all know the average donor (both in sheer numbers and level of contribution) will rise with winning football.  

Just like with football coaches we have to be cognizant of when we have a good AD that someone is wanting to poach to a position that we would hope ourselves to be peer to in just a couple of years.  

[El Paso Eagle]

1 minute ago, All About UNT said:

Stop focusing on the FB situation. He has his first opportunity here to hire his own hire as FB HC.  If he jacks that up then yeah we can hold that against him.  He has made massive facility improvements and has certainly gotten our major donors to step up... we all know the average donor (both in sheer numbers and level of contribution) will arise with winning football.  

Just like Football HCs we have to be cognizant of when we have a good AD that someone is wanting to poach to a position that we would hope ourselves to be peer to in a couple of years.  

Not focusing just on football, but football is the biggest part of the budget and right now we are failing and he has not taken action. Honestly, does he deserve to be one of the highest paid AD's in G? Have a salary in line with schools that have $100M budgets?  Great that we want to pay our AD and FB coaches top dollars, but then don't use the "we can't afford " when you talking about making a change.

[NorthTexasSportsNetwork]

7 minutes ago, All About UNT said:

Stop focusing on the FB situation. He has his first opportunity here to hire his own hire as FB HC.  If he jacks that up then yeah we can hold that against him.  He has made massive facility improvements and has certainly gotten our major donors to step up... we all know the average donor (both in sheer numbers and level of contribution) will arise with winning football.  

Just like Football HCs we have to be cognizant of when we have a good AD that someone is wanting to poach to a position that we would hope ourselves to be peer to in a couple of years.  

Exactly!!!! He’s turned around failing programs like softball, men’s basketball, etc and continues to advocate for the North Texas brand. He is a major reason UNT will be getting a way bigger payday in the American because of his leadership, and that money will continue to boost the budget in the athletic department, that will eventually boost all sports.

It’s only a matter of time before NT is a powerhouse, and this is the right step.

[Mike Jackson]

Wren’s salary is the least of our problems.  He has done a good job so far.  The only negative was Seth’s second extension and I am not sure that was 100% his call.  It wasn’t an outrageous decision just one that I wouldn’t have made.  It wasn’t a long term fix and best case scenario he is gone in less than 2 years if he finds QB as good as Fine.  Other than that his strategic moves have been good.  
 
Now for the present, it does concern me that SL isn’t gone already.  The AD the fired Gary Patterson summarized all the benefits of getting rid of a lame duck coach before the end of the season.  Gary Patterson rebuilt that program from about as low as it could go and deserved better.  His DNA is in the foundation of that program and they fired him midseason.  Contrast that with SL not putting ANY team trophy case during his tenure but yet we retaining him till the end of the season.  In my mind that puts MORE pressure on Wren.  Coming late to the coach market with a FB program in shambles to fix limits your options.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Mike Jackson

[Greenrex]

My hope is for us to be a major player in all aspects of university life and a solid, high quality athletics program is a vital ingredient in that goal. North Texas' hiring of Wren Baker was a home run and keeping him is a no-brainer. I have no doubt, there are other schools that would love to hire him away and Neal Smatresk wants to pro-actively prevent that. The BOR obviously supports that notion and our major donors are stepping up.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
I could go on but, it's 4 am and I just got up to answer nature's call so, to answer the question, yes.

 

[NorthTexasWeLove]

Financially,  I don't see how it does.  Are we getting the same ROI as P5 schools? Of course not. So why are we paying like we are? 

A scarecrow could watch three 4-win seasons in a row and not flinch or make a peep. 

[VideoEagle]

Does Wren’s new contract make financial sense? Yes, it does. The reasons are too numerous to list but we can start with we’re moving to the AAC. Anyone that complained about CUSA shouldn’t be questioning his new contract. 

[meangreenbob]

I have no issue with us paying Wren $700,000. 

Unlike others he did it the old fashion way, he earned it! 

Smith & Barney. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by meangreenbob

[TheColonyEagle]

Seems if we can afford to pay our AD more than the Florida St AD, then we should be able to afford Seth Littrell's buyout no problem.

[NorthTexasSportsNetwork]

1 hour ago, TheColonyEagle said:

Seems if we can afford to pay our AD more than the Florida St AD, then we should be able to afford Seth Littrell's buyout no problem.

By that logic, we should have a baseball team by now😉

[MrAlien]

as bad as SL might be, if he is fired now then the team probably doesn't win another game the rest of the season.  I think with SL they have a shot at winning 1 or 2 more games.  plus you have to pay him anyway, so whats the up side to firing him now?

[TheColonyEagle]

49 minutes ago, NorthTexasSportsNetwork said:

By that logic, we should have a baseball team by now😉

[TheColonyEagle]

16 minutes ago, MrAlien said:

as bad as SL might be, if he is fired now then the team probably doesn't win another game the rest of the season.  I think with SL they have a shot at winning 1 or 2 more games.  plus you have to pay him anyway, so whats the up side to firing him now?

 

That's why you pull the trigger sooner than later ^

[NorthTexasWeLove]

20 minutes ago, MrAlien said:

as bad as SL might be, if he is fired now then the team probably doesn't win another game the rest of the season.  I think with SL they have a shot at winning 1 or 2 more games.  plus you have to pay him anyway, so whats the up side to firing him now?

The upside is looking like a legitimate program that will not settle with mediocrity YoY and will pull the trigger at anytime. It sends the message that setting it on cruise control, during good or bad times, will not be tolerated. It also puts us on the map as a current job opening that needs filling and candidates start to throw their names in the hat sooner rather than later. It allows the university to start to vet candidates earlier, hire earlier, allows the hire to go get his assistants earlier, allows recruiting the current commmitted guys and going to get other guys earlier, allows the hire to start putting his 'touch' on the program earlier, start a legitimate strength and conditioning program earlier, start setting the standard of expectations earlier, etc. Must I go on? 

[UNT Texas Hooligan]

1 minute ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

The upside is looking like a legitimate program that will not settle with mediocrity YoY and will pull the trigger at anytime. It sends the message that setting it on cruise control, during good or bad times, will not be tolerated. It also puts us on the map as a current job opening that needs filling and candidates start to throw their names in the hat sooner rather than later. It allows the university to start to vet candidates earlier, hire earlier, allows the hire to go get his assistants earlier, allows recruiting the current commmitted guys and going to get other guys earlier, allows the hire to start putting his 'touch' on the program earlier, start a legitimate strength and conditioning program earlier, start setting the standard of expectations earlier, etc. Must I go on? 

Agree completely which makes it all the more frustrating that a lame duck coach is being allowed to coach for his job when he's had 6 years to do this and has only regressed. 

[El Paso Eagle]

35 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

 

That's why you pull the trigger sooner than later ^

The longer we wait the more teams that will be in the mix for candidates. 

[El Paso Eagle]

4 hours ago, VideoEagle said:

Does Wren’s new contract make financial sense? Yes, it does. The reasons are too numerous to list but we can start with we’re moving to the AAC. Anyone that complained about CUSA shouldn’t be questioning his new contract. 

I like Wren and am very happy we have him. but take out the "He's doing such a good job" and compare his salary to what we are paying compared to the market. If we can pay salaries compared to teams with $100M budgets then make decisions like those schools and do what needs to be done. Above it was mentioned "Stop focusing on the football situation"; Well the truth is the most important area and potential to build our fan base is football. Our program is greatly underachieving under Seth. So should we all set back and continue to wait for a winning program, hell, a competitive program in the most important sport? I know our history of expectiations for football are low (we have a HOF coach with a sub .500 record) but while Wren is the director of all athletic teams, shouldn't the pressure be on him to do everything possible to put a quality product on the field? 

[NorthTexasWeLove]

6 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

I like Wren and am very happy we have him. but take out the "He's doing such a good job" and compare his salary to what we are paying compared to the market. If we can pay salaries compared to teams with $100M budgets then make decisions like those schools and do what needs to be done. Above it was mentioned "Stop focusing on the football situation"; Well the truth is the most important area and potential to build our fan base is football. Our program is greatly underachieving under Seth. So should we all set back and continue to wait for a winning program, hell, a competitive program in the most important sport? I know our history of expatiations for football are low (we have a HOF coach with a sub .500 record) but while Wren is the director of all athletic teams, shouldn't the pressure be on him to do everything possible to put a quality product on the field? 

Well said. And Seth Littrell is a pretty big indication of money doesn't equate to results. La Tech pays their AD almost 2/3 less than what we pay ours and their football coach a cool million dollars less than what we pay ours and they have only historically beat our faces off in football. And in regards to our pay rates/results I could go find pretty much countless programs that would match this comparison. I'm not trying to put my hands in another man's wallet, but at the same time the legitimacy of it has to be questioned. We are simply not getting what we are paying for. 

[Mean Green 93-98]

11 hours ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Great that we want to pay our AD and FB coaches top dollars, but then don't use the "we can't afford " when you talking about making a change.

When is the last time you heard our athletic department using that line when talking about coaching changes?  Knuckleheads on a message board repeat that tripe ad nauseum; but if the A.D. is fully convinced it's time for a change, a change will be made.

 

16 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Well said. And Seth Littrell is a pretty big indication of money doesn't equate to results. La Tech pays their AD almost 2/3 less than what we pay ours and their football coach a cool million dollars less than what we pay ours and they have only historically beat our faces off in football. And in regards to our pay rates/results I could go find pretty much countless programs that would match this comparison. I'm not trying to put my hands in another man's wallet, but at the same time the legitimacy of it has to be questioned. We are simply not getting what we are paying for. 

LaTech is no longer a great example.  They are being left behind in what will clearly be the worst conference in FBS, and a major reason why we are moving up in conferences is because of our financial commitment.

[VideoEagle]

1 hour ago, El Paso Eagle said:

I like Wren and am very happy we have him. but take out the "He's doing such a good job" and compare his salary to what we are paying compared to the market. 

The bolded part is where you go off the rails. This is a long term contract so we aren't comparing to where the market IS but rather where it will be at the end of the contract. Furthermore, contracts for D1 AD and Head Coaches is more than just what the individual that happens to have the job is paid, but also what a University believes the JOB TITLE is worth. Beyond that, salaries for those jobs also project the seriousness with which a university takes those job titles. 

The AAC commissioner commented that NT was the only one of the candidates that didn't  promise to invest more in athletics, but rather showed it HAD increased its investment in athletics. The President of SMU made a similar statement. These kinds of contracts signal we will continue to increase our investment in athletics. In other words, these contracts show we aren't just "happy to be in the AAC," but are willing to spend the money to improve our position in the AAC and the world of college athletics in general.

You keep writing about football being our "most important area." That is somewhat true, but doesn't tell the whole story. In order to HAVE football at ALL, we must must sponsor a minimum of 16 varsity intercollegiate teams (including football), with at least six men's or coeducational teams and at least eight all-female teams. Across all sports, each FBS school must offer at least 200 athletic scholarships (or spend at least $4 million on athletic scholarships) per year. A university MUST have all the other sports BEFORE they can have football!  

So, does Baker's new contract make financial sense? Of course it does unless one is opposed to moving up in the world of college athletics! 

[NorthTexasSportsNetwork]

2 hours ago, MrAlien said:

as bad as SL might be, if he is fired now then the team probably doesn't win another game the rest of the season.  I think with SL they have a shot at winning 1 or 2 more games.  plus you have to pay him anyway, so whats the up side to firing him now?

Very true. I mean there was good reasoning to fire McCarney during the year, but Seth hasn’t lost to a team like that YET

[El Paso Eagle]

50 minutes ago, VideoEagle said:

So, does Baker's new contract make financial sense? Of course it does unless one is opposed to moving up in the world of college athletics! 

So your logic is if I don't agree with you I don't support moving up? Your better than that. You and I have both been around a long time and have always believed we had untapped potential. I have no problem with all of the Athletic department employees making more and being at the top of our conference. What I would like to see is those opportunities be based on a good base salary and incentives that reward for hitting goals. If the had came out and said they were giving Wren a $250K bonus for getting into CUSA, absolutely no problem. Reward him for doing a good job. but keep incentives in place to keep improving. 

[Wag Tag]

He got us there.

[Pseudo Nym]

The biggest take away for me is that the powers that be, President Smatresk, the Chancellor and Board of Regents, believe he's doing a good job by:

A) Agreeing to and Announcing the Deal

Further believe he's doing a really good job comparatively:

B) Based on the salaries of AD's at comparative schools that have been posted here

And that they believe he has a clear vision to take us to even greater heights:

C) A combination both the length of time and dollar amount of the extension

 

------ Value of Other Sports and Program Success -------

As far as the success of sports other than football/basketball (revenue generating sports) are concerned, I also get really excited about this and personally believe it is an important part of the program, but I don't believe it's as big a piece of the puzzle that it's made out to be.  As one golf coach in the SEC told me when they were offered the position at a very young age:

"The last thing the AD said to me was: I don't care if you win or lose, but one hint of scandal out of your program, one word of athletes out of control, one negative headline, one semester of a low GPA and you're out."

It was made clear earlier in this conversation that the AD had faith that they would build a competitive program and win and all that, but the message was absolutely clear: your program is not a priority and you are not a priority, play the game, keep it clean, don't ask for more money and you could be here for a long time.

If you look at the "Olympic Sports" or "Non-Revenue Sports" you'll see a lot less turnover coaching wise, higher team GPA's across the board and coaches that are very happy to be where they're at for a long time - not saying it's right, just saying that's how it is.  They're still getting paid very well.

As someone who's made a living coaching basketball in college and professionally, the whole notion that you can coach a sport (game) as a job and make good money doing it is to me, completely absurd in itself; I have no illusions as to where my job ranks on the totem pole in our society, towards the bottom, so as a coach, as long as I have the bare necessities and my student-athletes are treated well, the rest is just window-dressing*.  I know a lot of non-revenue/olympic sports coaches feel the same way, those are usually the people I gravitate towards the most, they keep it real and keep it in perspective!

*What I'm saying is: Shaq didn't miss free-throws because he didn't have access to the best first-class facilities, staff, trainers, dieticians, coaches, technology, support, or was worried about paying rent - he had all of that and then some.  I love Shaq FWIW!

(Damn, I feel like the little eye roll dude is going to make an appearance 🤣)