Please stop blaming Wren Baker

WanderingEagle · October 16, 2021

Seriously. Enough. Just because Seth isn't winning, don't blame his boss.

Every single sport at UNT that is school-sponsored has won a championship in CUSA since Wren took over except for football. Is football the most "important"? Yes. But he has given us a new practice facility, top of the line uniforms, MASSIVELY improved the Apogee gameday experience.

Stop blaming Wren Baker for extending Littrell after back-to-back 9 win seasons. Anyone in WB's shoes would've done the same thing. That was not a stain on his tenure here.

Seth Littrell is going to be gone very soon. The team is only going to get worse if we fire Seth mid-season. They're going to lose regardless. It makes no sense financially or for team morale to can a head coach midway through a season. None of the candidates who we could hit a home run with are going to abandon their teams mid season.

We all want better. We all expect better. I'm tired of seeing people saying Wren is a bad athletic director. He's one of, if not the best, among G5 ADs. There is absolutely no reason to assume he won't take care of the football program and get us steered straight in the very near future, but please can it with the "I'm not going to the game because of Wren Baker" garbo takes.

wardly · October 16, 2021

Actually even though I bought season tickets I am not going to games this season for the same reason as last, The Virus. At nearly 79 I am one of the old wilder beast that the young lions easily bring down and kill on Nat Geo Wild. Regarding Wren, he was between a rock and a hard place in extending Seth's contract, and the buyout amount is not out of line when comparisons to other programs are made. I expect Baker to hire someone he already knows and trusts, and probably has worked with before.

Pseudo Nym · October 16, 2021

8 minutes ago, WanderingEagle said:

Seth Littrell is going to be gone very soon. The team is only going to get worse if we fire Seth mid-season. They're going to lose regardless. It makes no sense financially or for team morale to can a head coach midway through a season. None of the candidates who we could hit a home run with are going to abandon their teams mid season.

Agree with all but there is one scenario I can think of where making a move now would be beneficial.

Scenario: The New Coach is immediately available (Link: Lane Kiffin Leaving Alabama early to take over FAU) and Bennett is named interim head coach for the remainder of the season

Pro's:

Announce new HC and elevation of Bennett to Interim HC with the New HC Starting the morning after the last game of the season
All players would be immediately put on notice that they have the remaining games left to prove their value to the new coach and earn an opportunity to continue at North Texas
All coaches would also be on on notice that they have the remaining time left to prove their value to the new coach and earn an opportunity to continue at North Texas
New Coach can begin recruiting immediately
Current recruits/commits can have more time with new head coach to evaluate their future with the program
New Coach can immediately begin evaluating and gauging interest of potential staff additions and have a full staff in place by Dec/Jan at the latest
New Coach can identify what serious problems exist internally and put together a plan to fix the problems
The program gets a head start in all recruiting, planning, and development phases going into next season

Obviously dependent on new hire availability but there are advantages that should be considered by the potential new coach as to why they should leave where they're at early. FBS HC opportunities aren't guaranteed to come around again for any coach, coaches recognize that, if it's an Asst. or Coord. at another school, the head coach there should recognize the advantages the coach has by leaving early, and not only support but encourage the coach to leave early as it would be what's best for him and his new program; don't hold someone back from a life changing opportunity (this would also score points with coaches watching and paying attention). Competent HC's have faith in their staff and it would also serve as a proving ground for the next guy up on their staff and allow them to evaluate that individual for the remainder of the season and give them head start on replacing the coach who is leaving.

Not sure if it would be considered a "Pro" but for SL, it would give him sometime to catch his breath, regroup, evaluate things he would do differently moving forward, spare his W/L record, and also give him more time to figure out his next move. I think he will always be well-liked and respected by the Mean Green faithful in the final analysis, he's done more good than bad, and in a way it would be a respite for him and his family to step down sooner rather than later.

Jonnyeagle · October 16, 2021

3 minutes ago, Pseudo Nym said:

Agree with all but there is one scenario I can think of where making a move now would be beneficial.

Scenario: The New Coach is immediately available (Link: Lane Kiffin Leaving Alabama early to take over FAU) and Bennett is named interim head coach for the remainder of the season

Pro's:

Announce new HC and elevation of Bennett to Interim HC with the New HC Starting the morning after the last game of the season

All players would be immediately put on notice that they have the remaining games left to prove their value to the new coach and earn an opportunity to continue at North Texas

All coaches would also be on on notice that they have the remaining time left to prove their value to the new coach and earn an opportunity to continue at North Texas

New Coach can begin recruiting immediately

Current recruits/commits can have more time with new head coach to evaluate their future with the program

New Coach can immediately begin evaluating and gauging interest of potential staff additions and have a full staff in place by Dec/Jan at the latest

New Coach can identify what serious problems exist internally and put together a plan to fix the problems

The program gets a head start in all recruiting, planning, and development phases going into next season

Obviously dependent on new hire availability but there are advantages that should be considered by the potential new coach as to why they should leave where they're at early. FBS HC opportunities aren't guaranteed to come around again for any coach, coaches recognize that, if it's an Asst. or Coord. at another school, the head coach there should recognize the advantages the coach has by leaving early, and not only support but encourage the coach to leave early as it would be what's best for him and his new program; don't hold someone back from a life changing opportunity (this would also score points with coaches watching and paying attention). Competent HC's have faith in their staff and it would also serve as a proving ground for the next guy up on their staff and allow them to evaluate that individual for the remainder of the season and give them head start on replacing the coach who is leaving.

Not sure if it would be considered a "Pro" but for SL, it would give him sometime to catch his breath, regroup, evaluate things he would do differently moving forward, spare his W/L record, and also give him more time to figure out his next move. I think he will always be well-liked and respected by the Mean Green faithful in the final analysis, he's done more good than bad, and in a way it would be a respite for him and his family to step down sooner rather than later.

Good stuff - I like the way you think!

MeanGreenTexan · October 16, 2021

I think you underestimate what removing the dead weight, & replacing it with someone who cares, can do for the players’ desire to actually play!

The idea of an interim is not to install your permanent replacement immediately…. It’s to tell everyone (fans, MWC/AAC, & most-importantly… players!) that we don’t tolerate this kind of performance & are actively looking for HC candidates who believe in UNT like we do. We’ll identify, and hire that guy in December.

In the meantime, for the players, the dark cloud hanging over them will be gone, and inspiration for a brighter 2022 season begins the day it’s lifted.

Or, Baker can let the fire rage on a little longer & beat down the players even more than they are.

Mike Jackson · October 16, 2021

I disagree it actually is. I wouldn't have extended him at the salary level no way. Winning 9 games is NOT the standard in with us in any G5 conference (short of the AAC before the defections). That is a Fouts Field lower paid FBS level coaching staff in startup SBC standard. I don't know why 9 wins while playing in a division with disasters like Rice, UTEP restarts/upstarts like UTSA & UAB was held it such high regard. It was fun yes, but that isn't what you base long term decisions and investments on. His performance taking everything in consideration was just little above average and he was already getting an above average salary. Facts are several coaches in CUSA with lessor resources regularly beat his team and out coach him.

We couldn't be any worse of a situation today if Seth departed at the end of the 2018 season. Worse case scenario the replacement coach is bad and we have a considerably lower buyout with 2 years or less left on his first contract. So what was all the money for if he wasn't underpaid? Insurance against what?

Let's dissect these great years worthy of putting our program over a financial barrel that we shouldn't blame Wren Baker for. I am only looking at unexpected poor performances.

2017 vs SMU Seth's 2nd year vs Chad Morris' 3rd year blown out

2017 vs FAU Seth's 2nd year vs Lane Kiffan's 1st year blown out twice

2017 New Orleans Bowl lost by 20 to Troy 3rd year head coach Neal Brown

2018 vs UAB team's second season back after 3 year hiatus we lose to them at Home

2018 vs ODU 4 year playing FBS football they finished 4-8

2018 vs Utah State blown out 52-13

That win against a historically beyond horrible Arkansas team was great. But that was luck of the schedule more than anything special Seth did. Seth was hot but not bigger than the program hot. Among P5 programs KSU was a mid-range job at that time and still is. If he were entertaining an offer from upper tier P5 program that might be different. I thought it was a miscalculation at the time and still think is today.

El Paso Eagle · October 16, 2021

I keep hearing people talk about PB as an interim. Keep in mind, he has stated he only came here because of his relationship with Seth. If Seth was fired would PB take the position on an interim basis?

Side.Show.Joe · October 16, 2021

1 hour ago, WanderingEagle said:

Seriously. Enough. Just because Seth isn't winning, don't blame his boss.

Every single sport at UNT that is school-sponsored has won a championship in CUSA since Wren took over except for football. Is football the most "important"? Yes. But he has given us a new practice facility, top of the line uniforms, MASSIVELY improved the Apogee gameday experience.

Stop blaming Wren Baker for extending Littrell after back-to-back 9 win seasons. Anyone in WB's shoes would've done the same thing. That was not a stain on his tenure here.

Seth Littrell is going to be gone very soon. The team is only going to get worse if we fire Seth mid-season. They're going to lose regardless. It makes no sense financially or for team morale to can a head coach midway through a season. None of the candidates who we could hit a home run with are going to abandon their teams mid season.

We all want better. We all expect better. I'm tired of seeing people saying Wren is a bad athletic director. He's one of, if not the best, among G5 ADs. There is absolutely no reason to assume he won't take care of the football program and get us steered straight in the very near future, but please can it with the "I'm not going to the game because of Wren Baker" garbo takes.

No!!!!

Wren will remain on the hot seat until he steps up and does his job. Littrell must be fired now.

Wren hasn't been a bad AD, but he is now choosing to be a bad AD, by not firing Littrell. Every day that passes with Littrell still our coach, Wren is choosing Littrell over UNT and this fan base. If he loses his remaining support, it will be his own fault.

If Wren won't do his job, than he needs to be fired too!

meaniegreenie · October 16, 2021

58 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I think you underestimate what removing the dead weight, & replacing it with someone who cares, can do for the players’ desire to actually play!

And to keep them from starting to look elsewhere.

letsgiveacheer · October 16, 2021

1 hour ago, WanderingEagle said:

Every single sport at UNT that is school-sponsored has won a championship in CUSA since Wren took over except for football.

Actually not. Since his arrival in 2017, we have won nine conference championships. These came from six sports out of the fourteen we sponsor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Texas_Mean_Green

PlummMeanGreen · October 16, 2021

In Wren I Trust.

WanderingEagle · October 16, 2021

17 minutes ago, letsgiveacheer said:

Actually not. Since his arrival in 2017, we have won nine conference championships. These came from six sports out of the fourteen we sponsor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Texas_Mean_Green

Huh, did my math wrong then. Even then, the success of our athletic department outside of football speaks for itself.

MeanGreenTexan · October 16, 2021

1 hour ago, Mike Jackson said:

I disagree it actually is. I wouldn't have extended him at the salary level no way. Winning 9 games is NOT the standard in with us in any G5 conference (short of the AAC before the defections). That is a Fouts Field lower paid FBS level coaching staff in startup SBC standard. I don't know why 9 wins while playing in a division with disasters like Rice, UTEP restarts/upstarts like UTSA & UAB was held it such high regard. It was fun yes, but that isn't what you base long term decisions and investments on. His performance taking everything in consideration was just little above average and he was already getting an above average salary. Facts are several coaches in CUSA with lessor resources regularly beat his team and out coach him.

We couldn't be any worse of a situation today if Seth departed at the end of the 2018 season. Worse case scenario the replacement coach is bad and we have a considerably lower buyout with 2 years or less left on his first contract. So what was all the money for if he wasn't underpaid? Insurance against what?

Let's dissect these great years worthy of putting our program over a financial barrel that we shouldn't blame Wren Baker for. I am only looking at unexpected poor performances.

2017 vs SMU Seth's 2nd year vs Chad Morris' 3rd year blown out

2017 vs FAU Seth's 2nd year vs Lane Kiffan's 1st year blown out twice

2017 New Orleans Bowl lost by 20 to Troy 3rd year head coach Neal Brown

2018 vs UAB team's second season back after 3 year hiatus we lose to them at Home

2018 vs ODU 4 year playing FBS football they finished 4-8

2018 vs Utah State blown out 52-13

That win against a historically beyond horrible Arkansas team was great. But that was luck of the schedule more than anything special Seth did. Seth was hot but not bigger than the program hot. Among P5 programs KSU was a mid-range job at that time and still is. If he were entertaining an offer from upper tier P5 program that might be different. I thought it was a miscalculation at the time and still think is today.

Hindsight lenses are great to have.

outoftown · October 16, 2021

2 hours ago, WanderingEagle said:

Seriously. Enough. Just because Seth isn't winning, don't blame his boss.

Every single sport at UNT that is school-sponsored has won a championship in CUSA since Wren took over except for football. Is football the most "important"? Yes. But he has given us a new practice facility, top of the line uniforms, MASSIVELY improved the Apogee gameday experience.

Stop blaming Wren Baker for extending Littrell after back-to-back 9 win seasons. Anyone in WB's shoes would've done the same thing. That was not a stain on his tenure here.

Seth Littrell is going to be gone very soon. The team is only going to get worse if we fire Seth mid-season. They're going to lose regardless. It makes no sense financially or for team morale to can a head coach midway through a season. None of the candidates who we could hit a home run with are going to abandon their teams mid season.

I am sorry, but I do disagree. He is a pretty good AD who NT should keep I think, but he did make mistakes and now they are coming home to roost. I was even back then ok with the extension but worried about the amount. The negotiation Baker did was bad and he allowed SLs agent torun him over.

When you say SL will be gone very soon: It matters if it is this week or at end of season. in season results may not improve, but fans in stands might. The way other conferences look at NT as a candidate for joining is impacted by a look where they might wonder: is he gonna get to stay. No need to leave any doubt.

I am of the believe that good leaders follow the following: what must be done eventually, should be done immediately.

Edited October 16, 2021 by outoftown

NorthTexasWeLove · October 16, 2021

1 hour ago, letsgiveacheer said:

Actually not. Since his arrival in 2017, we have won nine conference championships. These came from six sports out of the fourteen we sponsor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Texas_Mean_Green

Don't let facts get in the way of a cool narrative.

Edited October 16, 2021 by NorthTexasWeLove

wardly · October 16, 2021

Am I correct in that Seth's buyout drops December 1st or did I dream it? If so that might be a reason for him to finish the season.

Army of Dad · October 16, 2021

2 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I think you underestimate what removing the dead weight, & replacing it with someone who cares, can do for the players’ desire to actually play!

The idea of an interim is not to install your permanent replacement immediately…. It’s to tell everyone (fans, MWC/AAC, & most-importantly… players!) that we don’t tolerate this kind of performance & are actively looking for HC candidates who believe in UNT like we do. We’ll identify, and hire that guy in December.

In the meantime, for the players, the dark cloud hanging over them will be gone, and inspiration for a brighter 2022 season begins the day it’s lifted.

Or, Baker can let the fire rage on a little longer & beat down the players even more than they are.

Obligatory reminder that he allowed Benford to coach every game on his contract…

Pseudo Nym · October 16, 2021

1 hour ago, El Paso Eagle said:

I keep hearing people talk about PB as an interim. Keep in mind, he has stated he only came here because of his relationship with Seth. If Seth was fired would PB take the position on an interim basis?

Yes. Considering the situation, record of the team, how long SL has been here, it wouldn't be seen as lack of loyalty on PB's part, and I think he has a positive reputation amongst his peers, so I don't think it would be seen in a bad light for him to step in to the Interim HC role.

I think his name keeps coming up because he's such an obvious choice considering his experience and at this point it would be more managing the program through the end of the season.

Honestly, SL has a reputation of being a classy guy, he probably has had or will have very soon, a conversation with him at the end of a day, something to the effect of, "Hey man, if I can't ride this out, and they want you to step up (as the interim hc), take it and do it for the guys in the locker room."

Almost everyone can see the writing on the wall with this situation.

There's a line I believe from Richard III, who makes the request of King Henry on the morning of his execution, to be clothed in his finest robes and regalia. Henry quips, "You fool, what matters how you fall?" Richard responds, "when the fall is all you have left, it matters most."

A final act in this case, if SL doesn't make it to the end of the season, would be that SL brought someone of PB's experience and character in, that can steer the ship until the end of the season. He won't get credit for it, but he can leave with a clear conscience that until the very end, he did his very best for UNT.

In a small or big way depending on your view, this is important, it would be SL's final act, that although he couldn't see it through until the end, he left it in the hands of someone very, very capable, very trustworthy that the AD wouldn't have to babysit. A selfless act for sure.

Lurker · October 17, 2021

I don't care who you blame but if something does not change, I will not renew my season tickets next year. This is my 18th straight year to have season tickets but no more if I don't see some reason for hope. My wife enjoys football but has only lasted through the band halftime show - no reason to stay any longer with the poor discipline and lack of effort.

I had lunch today with two other season ticket holders and they are pretty much of the same opinion - no point in paying to support this mess.

Pseudo Nym · October 17, 2021

I think SL and WB have already had the conversation. They've worked together long enough, seem to have a good rapport with each other (there's no reason to think they don't and they should at this level). WB seems to really respect the coaches that work for him, I'm sure he waited for SL to come by and broach the subject and that it was a straight forward conversation.

I'll put it this way, if SL went by WB's office today and flat out asked the question: Am I going to be your head ball coach next season? it would be inhumane for WB to say anything other than the truth. You can't string the guy a long at this point or at this level. (Texas kind of did that but didn't with Tom Herman, but to be fair to Del Conte, after he said that "Tom Herman is our Football Coach" and then hired Sark, he said that “From the time I made the statement, I had not completed my evaluation. When I completed that evaluation, it became apparent a change needed to be made.”

This is 100% speculation but in my experience, AD's with good people skills (like WB) build relationships with their coaches based on trust and respect and are often rewarded with trust and respect. There's no point to leave SL hanging in the wind right now, it's part of the business of coaching, he knows it, everyone knows it, it's not personal, it's business.

Hell, SL is young enough, smart enough, and tough enough, to consider with his agent (who would disagree and justify it a thousand different ways, it's why Sexton is the best), resigning at the end of the season and not taking the buyout or any money owed to him after the final game of the season.

That would send a helluva message to his next employer, and he'd be probably the only coach (including Asst. and Coord.) in the FBS that can say "it's not about the money, I won't accept something I didn't earn" and back it up. (I'm good with any interpretation of a contract and justification that he did earn it and it's the deal they agreed to and all that - I'm just saying there's a lot of ways to go about doing something, some of the more non-traditional routes have merit as well.)

That would be a hell of a classy way to go out! (And get your name on a lot of AD's future short-lists)

Mike Jackson · October 17, 2021

On 10/16/2021 at 6:01 PM, MeanGreenTexan said:

Hindsight lenses are great to have.

It isn’t hindsight when you call it in real time. It was above average performance at a program looked at like it was brand new to FBS. We aren’t that and haven’t been in a long time. Even back long ago in late 2018🙄

(Right now UTSA is about go 7-0 something Seth has never done even with that gift of catching a horrible Arkansas team.
Traylor inherited a team that was 3-9 and 4-8 in the 2 preceding seasons.) - now that comparison is hindsight. But guess who you COULD have hired if Seth left. 🤷🏽‍♂️

Seth’s 2nd and 3rd year were nice but NOTHING to overpay for. Let say the team doesn’t bottom out and it finishes right above 0.500 both years is that worthy of the highest salary in the conference? Even if he does not get $1 extra in 2019 as a raise he would be 3rd highest paid in CUSA today instead of the top. Oh and by the way, if you had given him a very modest 150k raise that year it would still be almost double what half the coaches the conference make today. Offer him some great bonuses tied to division, conference and bowl championships and be prepared for him to walk. I am tired of us excusing leadership here for acting we are so lucky to have a coach take a great paycheck and coach in really good G5 facilities. The program wasn’t going to implode any worse than it is now if Seth left for a P5 job. And if it did we would have better financial situation in which to make a move.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Mike Jackson

Mike Jackson · October 17, 2021

On 10/16/2021 at 7:16 PM, Pseudo Nym said:

That would be a hell of a classy way to go out! (And get your name on a lot of AD's future short-lists)

Nice to dream. I wouldn’t scoff at Seth taking 1 million of the buyout. I think that is fair. Shifting some of the rest he is owed to the staff that aren’t retained by the new head coach would be classiest. A year’s salary for each of them for 2022. As disappointed and long suffering as I am, I appreciate everyone that has tried to make the program a success. Especially the ones just trying to make a living. But bad moves need to be called out. And our leadership needs to play hardball with our head coaches and demand winning the conference to be paid the TOP salary in the conference. Seth was NEVER the best coach in the conference but he was paid that way. I can’t believe we have been debating this and calling it hindsight. 😢

Edited October 18, 2021 by Mike Jackson

GrandGreen · October 17, 2021

1 hour ago, Pseudo Nym said:

I think SL and WB have already had the conversation. They've worked together long enough, seem to have a good rapport with each other (there's no reason to think they don't and they should at this level). WB seems to really respect the coaches that work for him, I'm sure he waited for SL to come by and broach the subject and that it was a straight forward conversation.

I'll put it this way, if SL went by WB's office today and flat out asked the question: Am I going to be your head ball coach next season? it would be inhumane for WB to say anything other than the truth. You can't string the guy a long at this point or at this level. (Texas kind of did that but didn't with Tom Herman, but to be fair to Del Conte, after he said that "Tom Herman is our Football Coach" and then hired Sark, he said that “From the time I made the statement, I had not completed my evaluation. When I completed that evaluation, it became apparent a change needed to be made.”

This is 100% speculation but in my experience, AD's with good people skills (like WB) build relationships with their coaches based on trust and respect and are often rewarded with trust and respect. There's no point to leave SL hanging in the wind right now, it's part of the business of coaching, he knows it, everyone knows it, it's not personal, it's business.

Hell, SL is young enough, smart enough, and tough enough, to consider with his agent (who would disagree and justify it a thousand different ways, it's why Sexton is the best), resigning at the end of the season and not taking the buyout or any money owed to him after the final game of the season.

That would send a helluva message to his next employer, and he'd be probably the only coach (including Asst. and Coord.) in the FBS that can say "it's not about the money, I won't accept something I didn't earn" and back it up. (I'm good with any interpretation of a contract and justification that he did earn it and it's the deal they agreed to and all that - I'm just saying there's a lot of ways to go about doing something, some of the more non-traditional routes have merit as well.)

That would be a hell of a classy way to go out! (And get your name on a lot of AD's future short-lists)

Yes, I guess you believe in the tooth fairy also.