From this point on every loss is on WB

Side.Show.Joe · October 16, 2021

13 minutes ago, Green Otaku said:

It's easy to say WB should fire him now when you're not in the nitty gritty of all the details. If it were as easy as snapping your fingers, I'm sure WB would do it. None of us know the inner workings, politics, financial constraints, and any number of other things going on in the AD.

Nobody is happy with how things are going. I trust WB to make the choice from now to the end of the season as soon as it is feasible.

Wren has had two season to get his ducks in order. If he isn't prepared than that is on him. He needs to step up and do his job. We are out of time and he knows it.

Wag Tag · October 16, 2021

The only reason to fire Seth mid season is if you have an assistant that could be the next head coach and give him a shot. We obviously don’t have that.

greenminer · October 16, 2021

45 minutes ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

Keeping him would be worse. Littrell is an embarrassment and he cannot be allowed to continue. If we fire him now, we can sell our next coaching hire while Smat works his connections in the MWC. There is no other option. We either do what needs to be done and fire Littrell, or watch another decade of UNT football go down the toilet. It is in Wren's hands, and time is not his friend.

#s are good talking points. If there was someway to calculate how much money we were losing in either scenario (keeping vs. firing SL), I would like to see them. Initial questions that come to mind:

Is there a $$ amount we can say is tied to every 1000 butts in attendance? IE, If attendance is down X thousand people, we are losing X amount of money.
Obviously, his buyout money comes into play. How much money would we GAIN just by getting into the AAC? MWC?
Do we have any big time donors ready to step up? Big time donors that would step down? How much would we be gaining or losing?
Attendance figures are easily the easiest thing to see in regards to fan support. Does anyone know how much ticket sales drive our football/athletic budget? In the back of my mind, maybe the AD hates losing 10K butts-in-seats, but it's not as big a deal financially as we want to believe.

Just typing my thoughts out loud here. There's a lot of anger being thrown around right now. I get it. But if you are going to say it would be worse to keep him around, IMO it would be nice to see numbers that reflect that. On the flip side of this, the numbers might reveal how VERY BAD it would be to keep SL, worse than what we are thinking right now.

Edited October 16, 2021 by greenminer

Green Otaku · October 16, 2021

48 minutes ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

Wren has had two season to get his ducks in order. If he isn't prepared than that is on him. He needs to step up and do his job. We are out of time and he knows it.

You and everyone knows that's not how it works. You don't go into a season with firing the coach in mind at least not outwardly/or even behind closed doors. Do you know the kind of media nightmare would occur if anything leaked that the AD was looking for options to fire the coach before the season even started? I know emotions are high, but let's bring some reasoning in here.

The work starts now, I can only assume Baker and the rest of the AD are working behind the scenes and analyzing all of their options. I'll wait for the results, and judge them on that.

Mike Jackson · October 16, 2021

1 hour ago, MeanGreen22 said:

To be fair to Wren, Seth was a very hot name in the coaching ranks and coming off another 9 win season when he extended him. It’s all gone very bad since. So I’m right there with you. I’ll judge Wren based on what happens at seasons end.

Yes, he was "hot". But he had not done anything spectacular here. Nice because we had been a disaster most of the 20 years in our return to FBS level football. Good programs should be prepared to let coaches without UNT Hardware (trophies) walk at the right time. And just with just 2 winning seasons going to a P5 program it was best to let him walk. Head Coach here is a good FBS job (even better then with new practice facilities plans finalized and a talented roster). I believe more quality coaches would have jumped at the opportunity to come here at that time. I don't think the timing exactly lined up but I wouldn't have been surprised if Sonny Dykes had come here if Seth departed a little earlier. We would have had more money to hire Seth's replacement also.

Side.Show.Joe · October 16, 2021

27 minutes ago, Green Otaku said:

You and everyone knows that's not how it works. You don't go into a season with firing the coach in mind at least not outwardly/or even behind closed doors. Do you know the kind of media nightmare would occur if anything leaked that the AD was looking for options to fire the coach before the season even started? I know emotions are high, but let's bring some reasoning in here.

The work starts now, I can only assume Baker and the rest of the AD are working behind the scenes and analyzing all of their options. I'll wait for the results, and judge them on that.

If the work is just now starting, than Wren has already lost. If he is worth his title, Wren has his plan ready to go now. If he does not, than he is not the AD we need, and more people than just coaches need to be fired in the athletic department.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Side.Show.Joe

Side.Show.Joe · October 16, 2021

42 minutes ago, greenminer said:

#s are good talking points. If there was someway to calculate how much money we were losing in either scenario (keeping vs. firing SL), I would like to see them. Initial questions that come to mind:

Is there a $$ amount we can say is tied to every 1000 butts in attendance? IE, If attendance is down X thousand people, we are losing X amount of money.

Obviously, his buyout money comes into play. How much money would we GAIN just by getting into the AAC? MWC?

Do we have any big time donors ready to step up? Big time donors that would step down? How much would we be gaining or losing?

Attendance figures are easily the easiest thing to see in regards to fan support. Does anyone know how much ticket sales drive our football/athletic budget? In the back of my mind, maybe the AD hates losing 10K butts-in-seats, but it's not as big a deal financially as we want to believe.

Just typing my thoughts out loud here. There's a lot of anger being thrown around right now. I get it. But if you are going to say it would be worse to keep him around, IMO it would be nice to see numbers that reflect that. On the flip side of this, the numbers might reveal how VERY BAD it would be to keep SL, worse than what we are thinking right now.

There is no real formula for figuring out how much it is costing UNT to keep Littrell. It is all a matter of perspective. If we lose out on realignment because we can't stabilize our football program and fund Littrell's firing, than that is bigger than a set amount of money. That will be a generational failure by our university and a stain on Wren Baker's career. That is much most costly than the $3 million or so buyout some keep pointing at.

GrandGreen · October 16, 2021

4 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

Keeping him would be worse. Littrell is an embarrassment and he cannot be allowed to continue. If we fire him now, we can sell our next coaching hire while Smat works his connections in the MWC. There is no other option. We either do what needs to be done and fire Littrell, or watch another decade of UNT football go down the toilet. It is in Wren's hands, and time is not his friend.

You must realize that you have not mentioned one thing in support of firing him right now.

Do you not think Baker is capable of doing the things necessary without another distraction (interim coach).

Littrell is not an embarrassment, for all I can tell he is a good person. You might call the program under him an embarrassment, but not the man.

Green Otaku · October 17, 2021

10 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

If the work is just now starting, than Wren has already lost. If he is worth his title, Wren has his plan ready to go now. If he does not, than he is not the AD we need, and more people than just coaches need to be fired in the athletic department.

You sound deranged. No one in the country does things in that manner.

97and03 · October 17, 2021

It would be best to have a new HC in place before the early signing period in December.

PlummMeanGreen · October 17, 2021

4 hours ago, 97and03 said:

It would be best to have a new HC in place before the early signing period in December.

UNT’s outstanding football venues may salvage this December’s recruiting class, but that remains to be seen.
Once again, a wholehearted thanks from the MG Nation to the Loveless & McNatt families of Denton for making the Indoor Practice Facility a superb addition to the Mean Green Village.

Anyway, those upcoming December recruits should know we have an AD whose an upwardly mobile type of guy whose first head football coach’s hire at UNT will ultimately be as successful as his first head basketball coach hire. Coach Mac’s team who beat a Purdue team in March Madness last March. (BTW, I saw a college basketball magazine the other day that had the Purdue Boilermakers ranked #2 nationally in their pre-season Top 25). They were ranked #20 when the Mean Green upset them last March.

🏈🏀

Edited October 17, 2021 by PlummMeanGreen

Side.Show.Joe · October 17, 2021

12 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

You must realize that you have not mentioned one thing in support of firing him right now.

Do you not think Baker is capable of doing the things necessary without another distraction (interim coach).

Littrell is not an embarrassment, for all I can tell he is a good person. You might call the program under him an embarrassment, but not the man.

I have named several reason for why Littrell needs to be fired now and not after the season is officially over....

1. He lost the team.

2. His team has no discipline left.

3. Fans and players are openly cussing each other at games.

4. He can't win.

5. 17 penalties against Marshall.

6. He isn't coaching the team anyway (same stupid mistakes week after week).

7. Same weak excuses for losing week after week.

8. He's lost the fans.

You get the point...

I don't care if Baker would rather avoid the distraction of an interim coach. Had he done his job sooner, he wouldn't have us in this mess. Like Littrell, Baker gets paid a lot of money to do his job. He needs to do it.

I'm sure Littrell is a good person. I've never read one negative comment about the man personally. As a coach he is an embarrassment, and he has ruined our football program.

Liberty lost to ULM last night, but they will come to Apogee and beat the crap out of our team this week. That is where Littrell has taken our football program. There is no good reason to justify allowing him to finish this season.

Side.Show.Joe · October 17, 2021

5 hours ago, Green Otaku said:

You sound deranged. No one in the country does things in that manner.

Thanks. I don't care what you think. Right now all I care about is getting our program out from under the poor leadership that is doing absolutely nothing to fix our issues. If you don't like what I'm typing, down vote me or ignore me, because I'm not going to stop. I got another 40 or 50 years of following the Mean Green left in me.

Lurker · October 17, 2021

18 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Disagree, firing a hc mid season; is not going to enhance NT's chances on joining anything.

2022 The Return to the Southland Conference!

GrandGreen · October 17, 2021

3 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

I have named several reason for why Littrell needs to be fired now and not after the season is officially over....

1. He lost the team.

2. His team has no discipline left.

3. Fans and players are openly cussing each other at games.

4. He can't win.

5. 17 penalties against Marshall.

6. He isn't coaching the team anyway (same stupid mistakes week after week).

7. Same weak excuses for losing week after week.

8. He's lost the fans.

You get the point...

I don't care if Baker would rather avoid the distraction of an interim coach. Had he done his job sooner, he wouldn't have us in this mess. Like Littrell, Baker gets paid a lot of money to do his job. He needs to do it.

I'm sure Littrell is a good person. I've never read one negative comment about the man personally. As a coach he is an embarrassment, and he has ruined our football program.

Liberty lost to ULM last night, but they will come to Apogee and beat the crap out of our team this week. That is where Littrell has taken our football program. There is no good reason to justify allowing him to finish this season.

The question is not why Littrell should be terminated, it is why should he be terminated mid-season.

I would be more than surprised if Littrell is fired before season end.

Again, the question is what would NT gain by terminated Littrell now. IMO, nothing; the team is not going to magically get better.

It is my opinion that NT has a better chance of winning some games this year without an added drama of firing a head coach because of his record. If Seph was running an outlaw program or had personal conduct issues, it would be justified.

Your above justifications relate to losing and the odds are not going to improve with another distraction for this team.

MeanGreenTexan · October 17, 2021

For those of you chastising folks here about calling for Baker to be fired, I don’t think anyone is doing that. The closest I’ve seen to this is an if/then scenario, which should be put out there... So stop falsely accusing.

There are blatant “fire Littrell” threads. To my knowledge, there isn’t one of those for Baker.

I think people are just wanting to apply heat on him to do the right thing. If he disagrees it needs to be done ASAP, that’s his decision, but he’ll feel that heat until he does. It’s perfectly fair.

MAX KOCH · October 17, 2021

Liberty56 UNT 7

Green Otaku · October 17, 2021

4 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

Thanks. I don't care what you think. Right now all I care about is getting our program out from under the poor leadership that is doing absolutely nothing to fix our issues. If you don't like what I'm typing, down vote me or ignore me, because I'm not going to stop. I got another 40 or 50 years of following the Mean Green left in me.

I haven't downvoted you once. I agree with everything you say except blaming WB. It's easy to say do this or that when you aren't the one having to look at the finances/spreadsheets and coming up with that type of money. Everyone wants SL gone by tomorrow, but I understand that there may be reasons as to why that isn't possible yet.

Pseudo Nym · October 17, 2021

2 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Again, the question is what would NT gain by terminated Littrell now. IMO, nothing; the team is not going to magically get better.

Potential benefits to firing a coach midseason (brought over from another thread and amended) and if you simply fire a head coach midseason without a replacement, some of these still apply.

Without hearing the exact quote from WB, it's hard to determine if what he said about the research/numbers not supporting a coaching change midseason was articulated as a hardline policy/belief of his, or just an answer in the moment to shift he conversation away from a potentially more controversial discussion with donors. I'm more inclined to believe it's the latter, I can't imagine he would back himself into a corner like that and hold to that line of thought in absolute terms (and btw, the research shows it's rarely a good idea for leaders to be completely inflexible in decision making processes).

Here's the scenario I laid out for benefits of a midseason fire: The New Coach is immediately available (Link: Lane Kiffin Leaving Alabama early to take over FAU) and Bennett is named interim head coach for the remainder of the season

Pro's:

Officially begin the search/hiring process for a new coach - avoid a potential bidding war*
All players would be immediately put on notice that they have the remaining games left to prove their value to the new coach and earn an opportunity to continue at North Texas
All coaches would also be on on notice that they have the remaining time left to prove their value to the new coach and earn an opportunity to continue at North Texas
New Coach can begin recruiting immediately
Current recruits/commits can have more time with new head coach to evaluate their future with the program
New Coach can immediately begin evaluating and gauging interest of potential staff additions and have a full staff in place by Dec/Jan at the latest
New Coach can identify what serious problems exist internally and put together a plan to fix the problems
The program gets a head start in all recruiting, planning, and development phases going into next season

*This is one of the most misunderstood and undervalued propositions in intercollegiate athletics, but is applied in multiple areas of business all the time and should be an advantage UNT seeks to take advantage of often.

There are more points than those listed above that can be added to the "pro's of a midseason fire".

Making the point that there are limited benefits to firing a coach midseason is fine, and that point can be satisfactorily made, articulated and applied to the current situation. To preach it as the gospel, however, is inept and shortsighted (especially when the only source you use to do it is "WB said....").

Also, any player that views an interim coach as a distraction, has their focus in the wrong place, and needs to reevaluate their role and responsibility on the team. The "Do Your Job" mantra is well-liked and respected for a reason, it's clear and precise. It's not:

"Do Your Job and pass judgement on how others are doing their's and if you don't agree, do your job a little bit less well".

Of course players care and have their own opinions on the HC and any coaching staff changes, they do not, however, get a built-in reason (i.e. distraction) to use as an excuse for their performance.

I think it was @MeanGreenTexan who made a great point that firing SL now, lifts a dark cloud hanging over the team - it would be fair to make the argument then, if you believe this to be the case, that firing a coach midseason removes the dark loud and negativity, and improves the mental health and well-being of the players on the team.

Improved mental health for college students and student-athletes would seem to also be a bonafide reason, which can be further elaborated on and articulated but certainly can't be overlooked, especially with the challenges UNT and UNT Athletics has had with this in it's most recent past.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 17, 2021

I'm not sure I am willing to place all blame at WB's feet. He did extend the man twice, prematurely. He'll need to financially right that wrong by monetarily cutting bait THIS year. If he doesn't then he's definitely marrying himself to SL's successes or lack thereof moving into 2022. It's all a very tough ordeal and some burden of blame and responsibility falls on WB.

Got5onIt · October 17, 2021

WB should be let go if he doesn’t can Spanky at the end of the year. However, I do think WB is a highly competent AD and will fire SL.
What’s Smatty’s tone right now? Anyone in the know? He can’t be happy with how Football has been performing the last 2 seasons.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Got5onIt

southsideguy · October 17, 2021

4 hours ago, MAX KOCH said:

Liberty56 UNT 7

I think you are giving us to much credit here.

Side.Show.Joe · October 17, 2021

5 hours ago, Green Otaku said:

I haven't downvoted you once. I agree with everything you say except blaming WB. It's easy to say do this or that when you aren't the one having to look at the finances/spreadsheets and coming up with that type of money. Everyone wants SL gone by tomorrow, but I understand that there may be reasons as to why that isn't possible yet.

My issues with Wren are not personal. Wren is paid more money than every other AD in C-USA. It is his job to understand and make the finances work in these situations. Actually, it's his job to keep us out of these situations. If he isn't up to doing his job, then I have a big problem with that. Do I what Wren Baker gone? No. I do actually think he has done a remarkable job as our AD (outside of football). But, football is the most important sport under his leadership. In my opinion, any AD that can't or won't fix it, isn't worth keeping. That is my opinion. Take it or leave it.

Primo · October 17, 2021

Rick V. Would fire a coach in the hospital, just sayin

… I still wouldn’t want Rick V. back though.

TheReal_jayD · October 17, 2021

Firing wren is the dumbest shit I have heard. We are as good at we have been at every sport(outside of football). Facilities and budget are greatest they have ever been.

HE DIDNT HIRE SETH

HE WASNT THE ONE WHO PUSHED FOR THE RAISE.. no matter what Twitter or the intrawebs tell you…

Edited October 17, 2021 by TheReal_jayD