UNT Football Has Quit on Us

[Jonnyeagle]

@Side.Show.JoeIs is possible that they do not have the right guy to replace available or identified?  I think we would agree that replacing Littrell with another question mark just strikes me as premature.

[Cr1028]

9 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

I have to disagree. I don't know how many fans have accounts here on GoMeanGreen, but I doubt there are 16,000. We played the Frisco Bowl at 2pm on a Thursday afternoon. Most of those UNT fans that showed up for the bowl had to take time off from work and change their Christmas travel plans. They aren't hard core like us, but they came out, and left angry. They may not be as informed as us, but they know UNT has been upgrading their athletics. They know we are moving to the AAC, And, they know Littrell is our coach and he can't win the C-USA title or bowl games.

Wren has hired some outstanding coaches. McCasland and DeLong were home runs. And in my opinion, Wren would've already been hired away by a big time P5 if Littrell wasn't sandbagging our football program. The data just doesn't support keeping Littrell for another season. And I for one am sick and tired of the "give him one more season" argument. I heard it last year. Wren is the AD and will make the choice, but he will also lie with the results too.

I agree with you that most don’t have GMG accounts but a boatload do. You have to remember, if you rounded up a family of 4 and went to the game, there is still only one GMG account attached to that family typically. Also, I saw at least 3 former players there, at least two of which are high school coaches, and at least one of those brought family. I’m sure there were many more that I didn’t recognize. I had a guy sitting next to me posting on GMG in the middle of the game. We are everywhere. There are almost 15k GMG accounts. I don’t know how many are active but Harry does a good job of purging many that aren’t.

On the 2nd point, it is on Wren Baker to make that call. He knows very well what the data says and what his gut and advisors tell him. He will look like a genius or a fool but will absolutely lie with the results like you said.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Cr1028

[Side.Show.Joe]

2 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

I agree with you that most don’t have GMG accounts but a boatload do. You have to remember, if you rounded up a family of 4 and went to the game, there is still only one GMG account attached to that family typically. Also, I saw at least 3 former players there, at least two of which are high school coaches, and at least one of those brought family. I’m sure there were many more that I didn’t recognize. I had a guy sitting next to me posting on GMG in the middle of the game. We are everywhere. There are almost 15k GMG accounts. I don’t know how many are active but Harry does a good job of purging many that aren’t.

On the 2nd point, it is on Wren Baker to make that call. He knows very well what the data says and what his gut and advisors tell him. He will look like a genius or a fool but will absolutely lie with the results like you said.

According to UNT own athletic site, our MGSF has exactly 1,419 members. Those are certainly hardcore fans. There are others on this board that don;t have season tickets but are die hard too, but I highly doubt 15,000 of them were at the Frisco Bowl. It is more likely that at least half of our attendance was comprised of the average fans that don't post on here. But I wish they did follow close enough to have accounts and post on this board. I wish Harry could get a time slot during freshmen orientation and sign up the new students.

Can't argue against your second point. It's true. Wren has the final say. But, I don't have to like what he chooses.

[Side.Show.Joe]

2 hours ago, Jonnyeagle said:

@Side.Show.JoeIs is possible that they do not have the right guy to replace available or identified?  I think we would agree that replacing Littrell with another question mark just strikes me as premature.

Wren is a very smart AD. He is known to have a spreadsheet ranking potential basketball coaches. It's how we landed McCasland, and it has been documented that other ADs contact him about the names on that list when they need to make a hire. I have to believe Wren has something similar for football coaches. It would be stupid to be so thorough for basketball and not for football. Littrell wasn't Wren's hire and I can't believe Seth would rank above other coaches that we could afford on his football spreadsheet. Either the university isn't allowing Wren to fire Littrell, or he can't raise the money for his buyout. Neither of those conclusions is acceptable. The programs in the AAC aren't going to stop and allow us to catch up with them. We don't have time to waste. And another season under Littrell is a waste of time.

[untjim1995]

39 minutes ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

Wren is a very smart AD. He is known to have a spreadsheet ranking potential basketball coaches. It's how we landed McCasland, and it has been documented that other ADs contact him about the names on that list when they need to make a hire. I have to believe Wren has something similar for football coaches. It would be stupid to be so thorough for basketball and not for football. Littrell wasn't Wren's hire and I can't believe Seth would rank above other coaches that we could afford on his football spreadsheet. Either the university isn't allowing Wren to fire Littrell, or he can't raise the money for his buyout. Neither of those conclusions is acceptable. The programs in the AAC aren't going to stop and allow us to catch up with them. We don't have time to waste. And another season under Littrell is a waste of time.

Neither may be acceptable to you, but either one is accepted by the leadership. 
 

Wait until we win 7-8 games next year and he gets an extension. Then these people will scream from the rooftops about backing SL all the way. 
 

 

[Side.Show.Joe]

2 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

Neither may be acceptable to you, but either one is accepted by the leadership. 
 

Wait until we win 7-8 games next year and he gets an extension. Then these people will scream from the rooftops about backing SL all the way. 
 

 

I won't be one of them. 7-8 wins in C-USA might not even equal the strength of a .500 season in AAC.

Seth would have to pull a UTSA type (11 wins season) next year to have UNT positioned to be above average in the American. And 11 wins is something Seth hasn't done in 6 seasons at UNT. The stats and his history (Seth is 1-6 against AAC teams in his 6 seasons at UNT) say Seth can't win in the AAC. Nothing against Littrell personally, he just doesn't win. It's that simple.

[Mike Jackson]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:31 PM, Side.Show.Joe said:

I won't be one of them. 7-8 wins in C-USA might not even equal the strength of a .500 season in AAC.

Seth would have to pull a UTSA type (11 wins season) next year to have UNT positioned to be above average in the American. And 11 wins is something Seth hasn't done in 6 seasons at UNT. The stats and his history (Seth is 1-6 against AAC teams in his 6 seasons at UNT) say Seth can't win in the AAC. Nothing against Littrell personally, he just doesn't win. It's that simple.

People gave this a eye roll and puking eagle reactions.  I seriously would like to hear a viable counter argument than is beyond just hope for a mediocre coach to be better than mediocre.  Unless Caleb Williams comes here or another QB so talented they can out perform mediocre coaching 6-6 or below is the 2022 record we should expect.  How long should a program aspiring to consistently contend for conferences championships keep a mediocre coach is the question.  I thought 5 years barring extraordinary conditions beyond the head coaches control was the limit.   Well Covid happened so he got to year 6.  And year 6 was mediocre also.  I don’t understand what the payoff in year 7 is supposed to be, besides mediocre or below.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Mike Jackson

[NorthTexasWeLove]

1 hour ago, Mike Jackson said:

People gave this a eye roll and puking eagle reactions.  I seriously would like to hear a viable counter argument than is beyond just hope for a mediocre coach to be better than mediocre.  Unless Caleb Williams comes her or another QB so talented they can out perform mediocre coaching 6-6 or below is the 2022 record we should expect.  How long should a program aspiring to consistently contend for conferences championships keep a mediocre coach is the question.  I thought 5 years barring extraordinary conditions beyond the head coaches control was the limit.   Well Covid happened so he got to year 6.  And year 6 was mediocre also.  I don’t understand what the payoff in year 7 is supposed to be, besides mediocre or below.

I think they might just be more focused on preparing leaders. THEN, they'll start building a champion team. 

[Mike Jackson]

1 hour ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

I think they might just be more focused on preparing leaders. THEN, they'll start building a champion team. 

How long does that take?  So the teams earlier in Seth’s tenure didn’t have leaders?  So the football program is a leadership development program that precludes the team being better than 0.500?  Where do all the undisciplined penalties fit in to this leadership development?  So when does the accountability for the people selecting these leaders to mold kick in?   So the programs that go from losing to winning in less than 4 years aren’t preparing leaders? 

[UNTLifer]

6 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

I think they might just be more focused on preparing leaders. THEN, they'll start building a champion team. 

One step at a time.  No need to get ahead of ourselves.

[TIgreen01]

Have you guys not looked at our actual schedule next year?  This year's team, as is, wins at least 7, if not more.  We play SMU, Texas Southern, UNLV and Memphis in the OOC.  Compare that to HBU, SMU, Missouri and Liberty from this season.  Even if you think we can't beat SMU, the other 3 are all winnable.  UNLV is terrible and Memphis is on a sharp decline.  In conference UAB is still going to be a load, but UTSA graduates nearly everyone.  With SMiss and Marshall possibly leaving this summer that's 2 more tough games off the list.  I do think LaTech will be better with Cumbie, but not sure it'll be next year.  All of that said, I see only 2 games that look like we're obvious underdogs heading in.  2022's schedule is light enough that we could be looking for double digit wins if we can just get the QB situation figured out (meaning just average QB play, not the well below avg we got this year). 

Edited January 6, 2022 by TIgreen01

[UNT Texas Hooligan]

33 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

Have you guys not looked at our actual schedule next year?  This year's team, as is, wins at least 7, if not more.  We play SMU, Texas Southern, UNLV and Memphis in the OOC.  Compare that to HBU, SMU, Missouri and Liberty from this season.  Even if you think we can't beat SMU, the other 3 are all winnable.  UNLV is terrible and Memphis is on a sharp decline.  In conference UAB is still going to be a load, but UTSA graduates nearly everyone.  With SMiss and Marshall possibly leaving this summer that's 2 more tough games off the list.  I do think LaTech will be better with Cumbie, but not sure it'll be next year.  All of that said, I see only 2 games that look like we're obvious underdogs heading in.  2022's schedule is light enough that we could be looking for double digit wins if we can just get the QB situation figured out (meaning just average QB play, not the well below avg we got this year). 

 

I get what you are saying, but we should be happy we are playing crappy teams rather than striving to beat good teams? The only thing saving Littrell's job is a cupcake schedule? Littrell has already proven he can beat garbage teams with an absolutely putrid record against teams with a winning record. I really hope a head coaching change is made before we join the American because we will get absolutely curb stomped if not.

Edited January 6, 2022 by UNT Texas Hooligan

[untjim1995]

13 minutes ago, UNT Texas Hooligan said:

 

I get what you are saying, but we should be happy we are playing crappy teams rather than striving to beat good teams? The only thing saving Littrell's job is a cupcake schedule?

Timing is everything. SL won at the right time to get that first big extension, now he's setup to get another extension because he can win at the right time. If you're an SL fan, you couldn't possibly get any luckier than to see your guy have to win 7+ games against that schedule to get you extended for another 3+ years. And make no mistake about it, the leadership and the BMDs here want that to happen--they truly like the guy and want to keep the status quo going. Its much easier that way--as we saw with avoiding a huge buyout and then needing to pay someone and their staff to come in at the same time. That just isn't the way things have traditionally worked here. Everyone will point to McCarney's firing, but that came after we suffered the worst loss in modern college football history on Homecoming to a FCS school from the Pacific Northwest that wasn't even a one of the top 8 FCS teams that year. We literally reached rock bottom--trust me, that seems amazingly difficult to get any lower than that. We haven't come anywhere close to that under SL. His worst teams won 4 games twice. Hell, in the 27 seasons since we came back to FBS (I-A), 16 of those seasons have had us win 4 or less games. The administration here probably thinks he's some kind of wizard for never winning 3 games or less here in a season, since every other coach before him has had seasons worse than that in their tenure here, including Fry. 

[Tom McKrackin]

7 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

I think they might just be more focused on preparing leaders. THEN, they'll start building a champion team. 

No I think the problem is Wren's hands are tied.  The UNT admin doesn't want to spend the money to buy him out.  Wren feels guilty and that he "Owes it to him (Littrell)" since he has a lot of young talent and wants the chance to see them mature.  The other stick that Littrell holds is if he leaves we will see the twins and KD and all of the best players like Oscar transfer out to the player portal.

[untjim1995]

10 minutes ago, Tom McKrackin said:

No I think the problem is Wren's hands are tied.  The UNT admin doesn't want to spend the money to buy him out.  Wren feels guilty and that he "Owes it to him (Littrell)" since he has a lot of young talent and wants the chance to see them mature.  The other stick that Littrell holds is if he leaves we will see the twins and KD and all of the best players like Oscar transfer out to the player portal.

I think the biggest stick SL has is that the Lovelace’s adore him like a son. That’s a lot of money to piss off and the AD and administration knows it. We can’t take the chance of them being like Mattress Mac and burning that bridge.

Edited January 6, 2022 by untjim1995

[MeanGreenTexan]

8 minutes ago, Tom McKrackin said:

No I think the problem is Wren's hands are tied.  The UNT admin doesn't want to spend the money to buy him out.  Wren feels guilty and that he "Owes it to him (Littrell)" since he has a lot of young talent and wants the chance to see them mature.  The other stick that Littrell holds is if he leaves we will see the twins and KD and all of the best players like Oscar transfer out to the player portal.

People keep saying this like it's a lock.    You don't think these guys would want to see who is brought in first?   Again, Baker's track record of coaching hires is very, very good (WVolleyball - TBD).  Who's to say he doesn't bring in a guy that the existing players can't get behind (and possibly some other guys in the portal)?

[UNT Texas Hooligan]

22 minutes ago, Tom McKrackin said:

No I think the problem is Wren's hands are tied.  The UNT admin doesn't want to spend the money to buy him out.  Wren feels guilty and that he "Owes it to him (Littrell)" since he has a lot of young talent and wants the chance to see them mature.  The other stick that Littrell holds is if he leaves we will see the twins and KD and all of the best players like Oscar transfer out to the player portal.

 

11 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

I think the biggest stick SL has is that the Lovelace’s adore him like a son. That’s a lot of money to piss off and the AD and administration knows it. We can’t take the chance of them being like Mattress Mac and burning that bridge.

It's honestly an amazing conundrum we are in. Stuck with a below .500 coach that can't win a bowl game, or hardly any game of importance, with an opportunity for him to coach for and get an extension, further dividing our fan base. Our rivals are laughing at us. It is a truly embarrassing situation.

[TIgreen01]

2 hours ago, UNT Texas Hooligan said:

 

I get what you are saying, but we should be happy we are playing crappy teams rather than striving to beat good teams? The only thing saving Littrell's job is a cupcake schedule? Littrell has already proven he can beat garbage teams with an absolutely putrid record against teams with a winning record. I really hope a head coaching change is made before we join the American because we will get absolutely curb stomped if not.

Crappy teams?  It's all relative to your peers and your conference.  That said, I'm not arguing with you.  We haven't been able to beat teams with winning records.  I'd like to get to the point where we can consistently.  All that I am saying is that regardless of who is coaching here next Fall, the schedule is going to line up pretty well to expect some wins--more than a .500 record, at least.  Obviously, stuff happens and that's why you play the games...

 

[Cr1028]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

People keep saying this like it's a lock.    You don't think these guys would want to see who is brought in first?   Again, Baker's track record of coaching hires is very, very good (WVolleyball - TBD).  Who's to say he doesn't bring in a guy that the existing players can't get behind (and possibly some other guys in the portal)?

Conversely, who’s to say that Wren doesn’t believe Littrell is the best fit or coach for our program? He has never commented otherwise. We also don’t have any indication that the persons on “his list” would be better or willing to take the job. Every single thing said about the issue has been speculation. Everything.

[MeanGreenTexan]

3 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Conversely, who’s to say that Wren doesn’t believe Littrell is the best fit or coach for our program? He has never commented otherwise. We also don’t have any indication that the persons on “his list” would be better or willing to take the job. Every single thing said about the issue has been speculation. Everything.

Agree with the first three sentences, although it would be hard for me to believe Baker or Smatresk truly think Littrell is going to be the guy to take us where they envision this thing going (UCF level).
As for everything being speculation, not necessarily.  There are facts that are difficult to get around if Baker is going to get UNT football where he wants it to go:   
NT Football is 14-21 over the past 3 seasons after Littrell's terrific start. Recent results are not matching the expectations Littrell himself set in those first 3 seasons.
NT Football is 0-fer in 5 bowl games under Littrell.  One of which was literally set up to be a slam dunk win -  A game in our own backyard against a middle-of-the-pack MAC team, sponsored by NT's biggest donor.  And we crapped the bed by inexplicably abandoning the run game that got us to the bowl to begin with.

And before you or anyone else cites NT's history and how much better we have it now than under previous regimes, I'll preemptively say again:  Things are different now.  This is not RV's athletic department anymore.

[Cr1028]

4 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Agree with the first three sentences, although it would be hard for me to believe Baker or Smatresk truly think Littrell is going to be the guy to take us where they envision this thing going (UCF level).
As for everything being speculation, not necessarily.  There are facts that are difficult to get around if Baker is going to get UNT football where he wants it to go:   
NT Football is 14-21 over the past 3 seasons after Littrell's terrific start. Recent results are not matching the expectations Littrell himself set in those first 3 seasons.
NT Football is 0-fer in 5 bowl games under Littrell.  One of which was literally set up to be a slam dunk win -  A game in our own backyard against a middle-of-the-pack MAC team, sponsored by NT's biggest donor.  And we crapped the bed by inexplicably abandoning the run game that got us to the bowl to begin with.

And before you or anyone else cites NT's history and how much better we have it now than under previous regimes, I'll preemptively say again:  Things are different now.  This is not RV's athletic department anymore.

I agree that the record speaks for itself. My point was that any suggestion that Wren intends to do anything about it is pure speculation.

[Tom McKrackin]

5 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

I agree that the record speaks for itself. My point was that any suggestion that Wren intends to do anything about it is pure speculation.

I concur.

[MeanGreenTexan]

50 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

I agree that the record speaks for itself. My point was that any suggestion that Wren intends to do anything about it is pure speculation.

Oh, absolutely.  I think the HC move window is slamming closed.  I highly doubt anything is going to happen on that front anymore.    I was kinda hopeful maybe just after the bowl game, but then thought maybe Baker was being a good man & not firing somebody right before Christmas...  then maybe this past Monday, but it hasn't happened, so I doubt it will.
Watching for a gigantic splash with the QBs hire.  Wren should be able to throw a lot of money at this person.

[untjim1995]

4 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Agree with the first three sentences, although it would be hard for me to believe Baker or Smatresk truly think Littrell is going to be the guy to take us where they envision this thing going (UCF level).
As for everything being speculation, not necessarily.  There are facts that are difficult to get around if Baker is going to get UNT football where he wants it to go:   
NT Football is 14-21 over the past 3 seasons after Littrell's terrific start. Recent results are not matching the expectations Littrell himself set in those first 3 seasons.
NT Football is 0-fer in 5 bowl games under Littrell.  One of which was literally set up to be a slam dunk win -  A game in our own backyard against a middle-of-the-pack MAC team, sponsored by NT's biggest donor.  And we crapped the bed by inexplicably abandoning the run game that got us to the bowl to begin with.

And before you or anyone else cites NT's history and how much better we have it now than under previous regimes, I'll preemptively say again:  Things are different now.  This is not RV's athletic department anymore.

Are things really THAT different? We find ways to explain why we don’t pay out buyouts and pay up other salaries to send a message that we want to win. Sure, we pay more now, but the mindset doesn’t seem all that different to me. If it wasn’t, SL would be gone. But he got enough wins to sell everyone on the idea of retaining him for another year of his instead of paying a buyout of over $2.5 million (at least).

Everything here is about money first…always

[Side.Show.Joe]

9 hours ago, UNT Texas Hooligan said:

 

It's honestly an amazing conundrum we are in. Stuck with a below .500 coach that can't win a bowl game, or hardly any game of importance, with an opportunity for him to coach for and get an extension, further dividing our fan base. Our rivals are laughing at us. It is a truly embarrassing situation.

Our rivals were laughing at us. Now they just feel sorry for us. It's embarrassing. Sadly, our administration seems content with failure.