For those concerned about us losing fans

[WanderingEagle]

I'm only 24 (I turn 25 in October) and I've had countless family members and friends reach out to me about the football team this year. People who I don't regularly talk ball with. I keep seeing people say "We're losing fans" or "SL is hurting the program and turning people away"

For every fairweather that leaves when the going gets rough, trust me as someone who just attended the school (graduated dec 19) and lives in Denton still, people *do* care about UNT football, and as aggravating as it is to hear about the well of potential here, I think it's important we (the diehards) keep level heads. The high odds are that SL departs and Wren brings in somebody who can produce results. It just might take some time but we're going to get there and there are brighter days ahead.

The program is going to be fine and those 25,000+ crowds at Apogee WILL come right back the minute we start winning again.

[wardly]

11 hours ago, WanderingEagle said:

I'm only 24 (I turn 25 in October) and I've had countless family members and friends reach out to me about the football team this year. People who I don't regularly talk ball with. I keep seeing people say "We're losing fans" or "SL is hurting the program and turning people away"

For every fairweather that leaves when the going gets rough, trust me as someone who just attended the school (graduated dec 19) and lives in Denton still, people *do* care about UNT football, and as aggravating as it is to hear about the well of potential here, I think it's important we (the diehards) keep level heads. The high odds are that SL departs and Wren brings in somebody who can produce results. It just might take some time but we're going to get there and there are brighter days ahead.

The program is going to be fine and those 25,000+ crowds at Apogee WILL come right back the minute we start winning again.

I certainly appreciate both your enthusiasm and optimism, but our new stadium has been open 10 years and the number of 25,000+ fans in attendance can probably be counted on one hand. The hard truth is that our football program is not fine, and with the exception of and occasional burst has never really been fine. My hope is that we hire a coach with a Texas recruiting background that can take advantage of the new bricks and sticks we have constructed the last decade and build a solid program. No more excuses.

[Travis]

31 minutes ago, wardly said:

I certainly appreciate both your enthusiasm and optimism, but our new stadium has been open 10 years and the number of 25,000+ fans in attendance can probably be counted on one hand. The hard truth is that our football program is not fine, and with the exception of and occasional burst has never really been fine. My hope is that we hire a coach with a Texas recruiting background that can take advantage of the new bricks and sticks we have constructed the last decade and build a solid program. No more excuses.

I am just glad you said Texas ties without saying Texas ties. I hate that phrase. 

[NWKGREEN]

My opinion is we won’t get the dudes unless somehow the program has more money.  Sorry to say it is quite a bit different than power 5 schools.  

[UNT Texas Hooligan]

I appreciate the enthusiasm but look at what keeping a bad coach on for too long did to the attendance for our basketball team. Even with a 2 time conference champion and NCAA tournament appearance, they've seen an uptick in attendance but no sell-outs and "good" attendance has been hard to come by though it is getting better. There were even multiple posts on here complaining about how bad the attendance was with such a good team. Apathy in a fan base is real. This could be apples to oranges because of football in Texas but this is a fan base that has, time after time, heard it all before just to get let down again and again. I really hope you're right and people come right back after winning but I am extremely skeptical and continue to get more skeptical the longer Littrell is left in charge of this dumpster fire. 

[WanderingEagle]

3 hours ago, wardly said:

I certainly appreciate both your enthusiasm and optimism, but our new stadium has been open 10 years and the number of 25,000+ fans in attendance can probably be counted on one hand. 

As recently as 2019, we sold out Apogee at 2-2 with a blowout loss to SMU and a loss to Cal. Playing teams like Houston helps. Playing teams like Memphis, Baylor, and Texas Tech over the next ten years helps. Obviously we need to start winning, but I think my larger point is that WB knows his next football hire has to be a home run, and based off his excellent track record here so far there's no reason to assume it won't be until it isn't.

[untjim1995]

42 minutes ago, WanderingEagle said:

As recently as 2019, we sold out Apogee at 2-2 with a blowout loss to SMU and a loss to Cal. Playing teams like Houston helps. Playing teams like Memphis, Baylor, and Texas Tech over the next ten years helps. Obviously we need to start winning, but I think my larger point is that WB knows his next football hire has to be a home run, and based off his excellent track record here so far there's no reason to assume it won't be until it isn't.

With scheduling, the problem is that people only come to Denton in bigger numbers (over 25k) if we are playing someone they care about--SMU, Army, UH, etc...we have seen bigger crowds for UTEP and LT before, but its usually because we are doing something insane--like actually winning football games. Baylor and Tech will be huge games here, but as we know with Power Teams, its no guarantee ever that they will play the return game here, as their TV money can be used to buy us out. 

Most of the time, we play 6 home games. Usually, the first home game is FCS spare or SMU, followed by another G5 or a CUSA opponent. The SMU game, no matter where it is, has an adverse effect on our attendance when we get our asses kicked, as we usually do. Then, we are playing a non-Texan CUSA West team here, in front of a decent (for us) crowd, only to see us normally wet the bed, leading to dreadful attendance the rest of the way. 

 

[WanderingEagle]

17 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

With scheduling, the problem is that people only come to Denton in bigger numbers (over 25k) if we are playing someone they care about--SMU, Army, UH, etc...we have seen bigger crowds for UTEP and LT before, but its usually because we are doing something insane--like actually winning football games. Baylor and Tech will be huge games here, but as we know with Power Teams, its no guarantee ever that they will play the return game here, as their TV money can be used to buy us out. 

Most of the time, we play 6 home games. Usually, the first home game is FCS spare or SMU, followed by another G5 or a CUSA opponent. The SMU game, no matter where it is, has an adverse effect on our attendance when we get our asses kicked, as we usually do. Then, we are playing a non-Texan CUSA West team here, in front of a decent (for us) crowd, only to see us normally wet the bed, leading to dreadful attendance the rest of the way. 

 

Man that's how it is across the board in college football. The reason SEC stadiums are full of 80-100,000 people week in/week out is because their opponents are the top teams in the entire sport. Western Michigan or Toledo could go 12-0 and MAYBE get 20,000. We get 20,000 just for showing up and scheduling good opponents. If we win, attendance skyrockets. 

Again all of this boils down to winning. 

Wren Baker's job is to produce winning athletic teams. During his tenure, our soccer, men's basketball, women's basketball, cross country, softball, volleyball, women's golf and men's golf teams have ALL won championships. 

The red flag is that football has not. And he knows it. 

As I said in my OP, the most likely scenario to happen out of all of this is that Littrell is relieved of his duties, possibly at the end of this season depending on how further we continue to sink. And yes, we can afford to make that move. If that happens, Wren Baker is in charge of who replaces him. He hired Grant Mac and that hire got our men's basketball team to heights it has never seen. He has overseen massive overhauls to our athletic facilities, uniforms, gameday experiences, and many more that we as fans can't take for granted. He is an EXCELLENT athletic director. SL being an overpaid, unproductive HC does not eliminate the New Denton narrative. This isn't the UNT of old and I for one choose to have faith we're going to get results and quickly the minute SL is gone.

[UNTcrazy727]

1 hour ago, WanderingEagle said:

Man that's how it is across the board in college football. The reason SEC stadiums are full of 80-100,000 people week in/week out is because their opponents are the top teams in the entire sport. Western Michigan or Toledo could go 12-0 and MAYBE get 20,000. We get 20,000 just for showing up and scheduling good opponents. If we win, attendance skyrockets. 

Again all of this boils down to winning. 

Wren Baker's job is to produce winning athletic teams. During his tenure, our soccer, men's basketball, women's basketball, cross country, softball, volleyball, women's golf and men's golf teams have ALL won championships. 

The red flag is that football has not. And he knows it. 

As I said in my OP, the most likely scenario to happen out of all of this is that Littrell is relieved of his duties, possibly at the end of this season depending on how further we continue to sink. And yes, we can afford to make that move. If that happens, Wren Baker is in charge of who replaces him. He hired Grant Mac and that hire got our men's basketball team to heights it has never seen. He has overseen massive overhauls to our athletic facilities, uniforms, gameday experiences, and many more that we as fans can't take for granted. He is an EXCELLENT athletic director. SL being an overpaid, unproductive HC does not eliminate the New Denton narrative. This isn't the UNT of old and I for one choose to have faith we're going to get results and quickly the minute SL is gone.

I agree with you 100%, but you're never going to change the minds of some our older fans. They're always going to view the AD as cheap, underfunded, and unwilling to make changes. Even though none of that has been true under Wren's and Smatresk's leadership. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by UNTcrazy727

[WanderingEagle]

Just now, UNTcrazy727 said:

I agree with you 100%, but you're never going to change the minds of our older fans. They're always going to view the AD as cheap, underfunded, and unwilling to make changes. Even though none of that has been true under Wren's and Smatresk's leadership. 

Unfortunately true. And I get it. I've only been a fan for five years. I didn't attend UNT until fall 17 so my tolerance is not built up like a lot of people's. Lol.

But yeah, purely through an objective lense, I dont know how you look at WB's tenure here and complain. He did extend Littrell in summer 19 but it was after back to back nine win seasons.

[wardly]

4 hours ago, WanderingEagle said:

As recently as 2019, we sold out Apogee at 2-2 with a blowout loss to SMU and a loss to Cal. Playing teams like Houston helps. Playing teams like Memphis, Baylor, and Texas Tech over the next ten years helps. Obviously we need to start winning, but I think my larger point is that WB knows his next football hire has to be a home run, and based off his excellent track record here so far there's no reason to assume it won't be until it isn't.

To my knowledge we have never sold out Apogee. The closest we have ever come was against Houston. On Wren hitting a home run,its a crap shoot. Every head coach that has ever been fired was considered a savior when he was hired. This is no reflection on Wren, its just the beast of the business. College athletics is a primarily a buddy system, and chances are Wren will hire someone he has worked with before and trusts. Its not a given, but seems to happen more often that not. Anyone who has ever hired someone for employment should tell you that its not an exact science. You basically use the same guidelines and somehow hire both some of the best and worst employees. Since my freshman year in 1961 only two head football coaches have not been fired, Hayden Fry and Jerry Moore. The rest, and its a rather long list, were home runs until they struck out.

[Rudy]

Ahh to be a new, unjaded UNT fan again. Life was so much simpler back then.  

[Aquila_Viridis]

We'd have to break with history and hire a series of great football coaches for there to be consistent winning. Showing up or not at this point is not the problem. 

[Mean Green Matt]

4 hours ago, wardly said:

To my knowledge we have never sold out Apogee. The closest we have ever come was against Houston. On Wren hitting a home run,its a crap shoot. Every head coach that has ever been fired was considered a savior when he was hired. This is no reflection on Wren, its just the beast of the business. College athletics is a primarily a buddy system, and chances are Wren will hire someone he has worked with before and trusts. Its not a given, but seems to happen more often that not. Anyone who has ever hired someone for employment should tell you that its not an exact science. You basically use the same guidelines and somehow hire both some of the best and worst employees. Since my freshman year in 1961 only two head football coaches have not been fired, Hayden Fry and Jerry Moore. The rest, and its a rather long list, were home runs until they struck out.

The La Tech game in 2018 (been a popular topic around here lately) was actually the closest. 

[wardly]

3 hours ago, Aquila_Viridis said:

We'd have to break with history and hire a series of great football coaches for there to be consistent winning. Showing up or not at this point is not the problem. 

Well, first you have to start with one. That was Hayden Fry in the late 70's. He was replaced by Jerry Moore who had a 500 record at UNT and was hired and later fired by Texas Tech. Moore went on to build a great program at App. State, won the 1 AA Football Championship, and laid the foundation for the program they have today. In the past 40 years we had 2 coaches who were, in my opinion, good coaches with zero resources. Corky Nelson and Daryl Dickey. I though Seth might be the one but as we stumble into his third 4 win season I admit that I was very mistaken .He had the bricks and sticks, financial backing from the administration, and a supportive fan base that his predecessors could only dream of.So if we recognize that Hayden Fry was the only "great" coach that worked his magic at North Texas over 40 years ago then we should hope that Moses needs a new gig, as it only took him 30 years to reach the Promise Land.

[WanderingEagle]

5 hours ago, Rudy said:

Ahh to be a new, unjaded UNT fan again. Life was so much simpler back then.  

I have to imagine I piss off so many old heads by just existing. My first three UNT home games as a student/fan were a blowout over Lamar, the UAB last second thriller, and the Drive - during which I fell down three rows of seats in the student section and sprained my arm. 

[wardly]

33 minutes ago, WanderingEagle said:

I have to imagine I piss off so many old heads by just existing. My first three UNT home games as a student/fan were a blowout over Lamar, the UAB last second thriller, and the Drive - during which I fell down three rows of seats in the student section and sprained my arm. 

No, we desperately need new blood like you! I really  don't mean to piss on your campfire and am just adding in a bit of realism with a little history. With our bricks and sticks, financial backing from the administration and a solid fan base we now have no excuses for failure. I am cautiously optimistic that out new head coach will be the Messiah. I have to be.I will be 79 in April  with not many seasons left.

[CardsKepin]

Just my opinion.

 

 

[wardly]

11 hours ago, Mean Green Matt said:

The La Tech game in 2018 (been a popular topic around here lately) was actually the closest. 

You are correct. 30,150 in a stadium that seats 30,850

[greengal]

20 hours ago, CardsKepin said:

Just my opinion.

 

 

I really liked this.  Nice job.  Hope to see more.

[CardsKepin]

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words 

[Withers940]

On 9/27/2021 at 8:41 AM, wardly said:

I certainly appreciate both your enthusiasm and optimism, but our new stadium has been open 10 years and the number of 25,000+ fans in attendance can probably be counted on one hand. The hard truth is that our football program is not fine, and with the exception of and occasional burst has never really been fine. My hope is that we hire a coach with a Texas recruiting background that can take advantage of the new bricks and sticks we have constructed the last decade and build a solid program. No more excuses.

Very Close but we have had more than a handful of 25k plus attended games. Not to prove you wrong because I too was curious about these numbers. Might not be the true attendance but these were tickets solds

 

[Withers940]

[Withers940]

Sorry to clog up the forum with pictures but it is interesting to me to see what our attendance has been over the years. We do have a winning record at home historically (155-100-7) and at Apogee (38-21) which is good to win constantly at home though not to the rate that we would like, still is a positive to win at home in front of our fans

[GOMeanGO]

On 9/26/2021 at 9:14 PM, WanderingEagle said:

I'm only 24 (I turn 25 in October) and I've had countless family members and friends reach out to me about the football team this year. People who I don't regularly talk ball with. I keep seeing people say "We're losing fans" or "SL is hurting the program and turning people away"

For every fairweather that leaves when the going gets rough, trust me as someone who just attended the school (graduated dec 19) and lives in Denton still, people *do* care about UNT football, and as aggravating as it is to hear about the well of potential here, I think it's important we (the diehards) keep level heads. The high odds are that SL departs and Wren brings in somebody who can produce results. It just might take some time but we're going to get there and there are brighter days ahead.

The program is going to be fine and those 25,000+ crowds at Apogee WILL come right back the minute we start winning again.

Its downright painful watching this y ear.