Seth now officially on the hot seat

[wardly]

14 minutes ago, RBP79 said:

If it wasn't for Graham Harrell and Mason Fine Seth would never got his pay raise and probably already be gone.

But he did have those guys and took advantage of having them. Seth's biggest mistake was not taking the Kansas State job. Wren's biggest mistake was throwing money at him with a new contract that allowed him to stay. Our biggest mistake is not looking into who Seth has beaten and who he hasn't . When you do that it's not that pretty a picture . [Granted the Arkansas win was big because of who they have been, not who they were when they lost to us.]. In reviewing his entire body of work I am surprised he is still here.

[UNTLifer]

29 minutes ago, wardly said:

But he did have those guys and took advantage of having them. Seth's biggest mistake was not taking the Kansas State job. Wren's biggest mistake was throwing money at him with a new contract that allowed him to stay. Our biggest mistake is not looking into who Seth has beaten and who he hasn't . When you do that it's not that pretty a picture . [Granted the Arkansas win was big because of who they have been, not who they were when they lost to us.]. In reviewing his entire body of work I am surprised he is still here.

Hindsight is 20/20.  We all would have been up in arms if there was no attempt to keep him in Denton at the time.

[untjim1995]

1 hour ago, TheColonyEagle said:

 

Seth Littrell seems like a good man. I respect him as a family man. He runs a clean program. It's not personal with Seth Littrell. It's actually really simple for me. I like 9 win Littrell. I don't like 4 win Littrell.

I'm not very smart but it really is that simple for me. Not really sure if there's a particular agenda there.

Win I like him. Lose I don't. This isn't a charity. He's getting paid a lot of money, has great support, great facilities. He doesn't get all that and then get to be ok with a .500 record in 5+ years. This became really clear for me when I stopped comparing our present to our past. I'm done with "that's pretty good for UNT considering our history." Nope...no more. 

Win - Seth is good.

Lose - Seth is not good.

I don't really know how else you would judge Seth Littrell.

SL has basically been a much more successful version of Todd Dodge here. Instead of losing to anyone, he almost always beats bad teams, wins some against mediocre teams, and loses to good teams always. They are offensive-first coaches with gaudy stats, that can't get those offense to score in the red zone against good defenses. But they are both really good guys, men with great character. The old adage of nice guys finish last seems to still apply here, although SL hasn't finished last at all. 

If you want anymore evidence of why anyone named Briles will never coach here, this is your proof. For better or worse, we don't hire win-at-all-costs guys here. Its just not in our DNA. 

 

[meanJewGreen]

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

SL has basically been a much more successful version of Todd Dodge here. Instead of losing to anyone, he almost always beats bad teams, wins some against mediocre teams, and loses to good teams always. They are offensive-first coaches with gaudy stats, that can't get those offense to score in the red zone against good defenses. But they are both really good guys, men with great character. The old adage of nice guys finish last seems to still apply here, although SL hasn't finished last at all. 

If you want anymore evidence of why anyone named Briles will never coach here, this is your proof. For better or worse, we don't hire win-at-all-costs guys here. Its just not in our DNA. 

 

You don't have to be scum like Briles to win. Bill Clark, Doc Holliday (until he got canned), Skip Holtz , Jeff Monken, Ken Niumatalolo (until recently) all seem like nice guys and all consistently win. 

The difference between those coaches, Seth, Dodge and Dickey is those coaches adapt. I never saw Dodge adapt to new situations, or personnel and I dont see Seth as an adjustment guy (in game or out) either, which is unfortunate. 

 

 

[SilverEagle]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Hindsight is 20/20.  We all would have been up in arms if there was no attempt to keep him in Denton at the time.

This may sound easy to say, but not me.  I was hoping he would take the Kansas job, and then Wren would have an opportunity to hire his own guy.  Someone young and hungry......Corkey Nelson hungry. Someone who had taken a smaller program than us and turned it around.  Someone who, when you ask him at the end of the interview if he has any questions, his response should be "who do I have to shoot to get this job"?.......or something that sounds a bit more diplomatic....but you know what he means.....😎

[wardly]

9 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Hindsight is 20/20.  We all would have been up in arms if there was no attempt to keep him in Denton at the time.

Agreed

[TIgreen01]

12 hours ago, TheColonyEagle said:

 

Seth Littrell seems like a good man. I respect him as a family man. He runs a clean program. It's not personal with Seth Littrell. It's actually really simple for me. I like 9 win Littrell. I don't like 4 win Littrell.

I'm not very smart but it really is that simple for me. Not really sure if there's a particular agenda there.

Win I like him. Lose I don't. This isn't a charity. He's getting paid a lot of money, has great support, great facilities. He doesn't get all that and then I have to be ok with a .500 record in 5+ years. This became really clear for me when I stopped comparing our present to our past. I'm done with "that's pretty good for UNT considering our history." Nope...no more. 

Win - Seth is good.

Lose - Seth is not good.

I don't really know how else you would judge Seth Littrell.

This post needs to be pinned at the top of the board.  Perfection.

[UNT 04]

On 9/12/2021 at 7:17 PM, WanderingEagle said:

We can achieve Briles level success with a coach that doesn't bring Briles history. There are plenty of candidates elsewhere.

Who? I’ll take Briles no problem.

[wardly]

22 hours ago, UNT 04 said:

Who? I’ll take Briles no problem.

He should have been fired from Baylor either for knowing what was going on and doing nothing to stop it or not knowing what was going on in his department. Either way he was fired and in my opinion should not be considered for UNT. How his son Kendall walked away untarnished is beyond me.

[TheColonyEagle]

18 minutes ago, wardly said:

He should have been fired from Baylor either for knowing what was going on and doing nothing to stop it or not knowing what was going on in his department. Either way he was fired and in my opinion should not be considered for UNT. How his son Kendall walked away untarnished is beyond me.

Briles’ DC walked away untarnished too. Lucky for him he never heard anything about any of it when he was there. 

[Cr1028]

3 hours ago, TheColonyEagle said:

Briles’ DC walked away untarnished too. Lucky for him he never heard anything about any of it when he was there. 

I love this post and because of it, I will reward you with…..

But seriously, very good point. Just having a little fun with you.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Cr1028

[TheColonyEagle]

7 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

I love this post and because of it, I will reward you with…..

But seriously, very good point. Just having a little fun with you.

[rcade]

On 9/12/2021 at 11:02 AM, MeanGreenDan said:

He would not take a step down to come here. 

Jeff Traylor is making $800,000 a year in base salary at UTSA, competed to Seth Littrell making $1.35 million.

An extra half-mil in your pocket doesn't seem like a step down to me.

[MeanGreenTexan]

9 minutes ago, rcade said:

Jeff Traylor is making $800,000 a year in base salary at UTSA, competed to Seth Littrell making $1.35 million.

An extra half-mil in your pocket doesn't seem like a step down to me.

I don't know what you do for a living, but a coach's livelihood depends on positioning himself for future success.

He's borrowing Frank Wilson's recruits and using his coaching smarts to make UTSA the top team in the West.   He'll parlay that opportunity into a P5 job sometime.    He's not looking to move laterally to a team that's not doing so well (if Littrell is fired, then UNT is likely on a 3-season sub .500 streak)... no matter how much more we throw at him.  It would bring his future positioning backwards.

[rcade]

37 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I don't know what you do for a living, but a coach's livelihood depends on positioning himself for future success.

He's borrowing Frank Wilson's recruits and using his coaching smarts to make UTSA the top team in the West.   He'll parlay that opportunity into a P5 job sometime.

Or it will all come crashing down around him at UTSA and limit his future prospects, making him think a $500,000 pay raise somewhere else would've been a good move.

After two 9-win seasons at UNT, Seth Littrell looked like someone who might parlay it into a P5 job. He was reportedly the front-runner to succeed Bill Snyder at Kansas State in 2018 before he took himself out of consideration.

[MeanGreenTexan]

9 minutes ago, rcade said:

Or it will all come crashing down around him at UTSA and limit his future prospects, making him think a $500,000 pay raise somewhere else would've been a good move.

After two 9-win seasons at UNT, Seth Littrell looked like someone who might parlay it into a P5 job. He was reportedly the front-runner to succeed Bill Snyder at Kansas State in 2018 before he took himself out of consideration.

Seth should've taken that job.   
I don't think there were very many of us that wanted him to at the time.   And hindsight is definitely 20/20, but you gotta think he was sure the next offseason would provide an even better opportunity for him if he just won another 9 games again...  boy was he wrong.

Traylor is likely thinking the same way.    Win C-USA West this year and win a bowl game... he'll start turning heads, and maybe even get an offer from a Big12 team like Littrell did.   Wait 1 more year, do it all again, and maybe he'll do even better.  I guarantee you that's what he's thinking.

[GrandGreen]

I am still amazed at how many believe Seth was offered the Kansas St. job.   I don't if it had been offered he would probably be gone.   IMO, this is a case of Littrell's agent earning his commission.  

Most likely in my view, is that Littrell was a candidate for the position and was informed he was not going to be chosen.  

It really does not matter if he got the job, because Baker knew that Littrell at that time was being looked at for p5 hc positions.  

Baker took every action he could to make Littrell happy.   In hindsight probably a mistake, but Baker was doing what he thought best for the program. 

[greenminer]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I don't know what you do for a living, but a coach's livelihood depends on positioning himself for future success.

He's borrowing Frank Wilson's recruits and using his coaching smarts to make UTSA the top team in the West.   He'll parlay that opportunity into a P5 job sometime.    He's not looking to move laterally to a team that's not doing so well (if Littrell is fired, then UNT is likely on a 3-season sub .500 streak)... no matter how much more we throw at him.  It would bring his future positioning backwards.

We're all a little confused about SL's roster management right now, but the entire league knows the conferences top recruiting classes from the last 3 years are sitting in Denton.

The very argument you make about him using Wilson's recruits with his own smarts, could be made about his potential in Denton.  Use SL's recruits, parlay the opportunity into a P5 job, and make half a million more per year while doing it.

[rcade]

4 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I am still amazed at how many believe Seth was offered the Kansas St. job.   I don't if it had been offered he would probably be gone.   IMO, this is a case of Littrell's agent earning his commission.

Multiple reporters including Brett McMurphy were told by sources that it got as far as contract negotiations. That sounds more likely to me than the idea that Seth Littrell's agent Jimmy Sexton -- who also represented 11 SEC head coaches and seven NFL coaches as of 2019 -- would lie to a major college reporter just to boost one of his G5 clients.

[MeanGreenTexan]

1 minute ago, greenminer said:

We're all a little confused about SL's roster management right now, but the entire league knows the conferences top recruiting classes from the last 3 years are sitting in Denton.

The very argument you make about him using Wilson's recruits with his own smarts, could be made about his potential in Denton.  Use SL's recruits, parlay the opportunity into a P5 job, and make half a million more per year while doing it.

Are you guys really serious?

Do you really think if SL were canned this season, we could just go offer the coaches of the best C-USA teams $300-500K more/yr, and they would gladly jump ship & come to a losing team?   

Again, this sounds like something you or I might do for our careers...  but I've NEVER heard of a FBS football coach leaving a winning program in order to take on a losing team in the same conference just for money.

Has anyone else heard of this?    Can you cite if so?

[greenminer]

13 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Are you guys really serious?

Do you really think if SL were canned this season, we could just go offer the coaches of the best C-USA teams $300-500K more/yr, and they would gladly jump ship & come to a losing team?   

Again, this sounds like something you or I might do for our careers...  but I've NEVER heard of a FBS football coach leaving a winning program in order to take on a losing team in the same conference just for money.

Has anyone else heard of this?    Can you cite if so?

You're not wrong: the precedent is that a coach doesn't ever more to a school within the same conference.

This is all contingent on how they view us as a program, which I don't know what they see, but I can tell you my view: UTSA winning for a little over a year doesn't make them a better program.  UNT losing like we have, even as bad as its been, doesn't make us the worse program.

I guess some of you all (not necessarily you) think our program is a dumpster fire right now.

[MeanGreenTexan]

8 minutes ago, greenminer said:

You're not wrong: the precedent is that a coach doesn't ever more to a school within the same conference.

This is all contingent on how they view us as a program, which I don't know what they see, but I can tell you my view: UTSA winning for a little over a year doesn't make them a better program.  UNT losing like we have, even as bad as its been, doesn't make us the worse program.

I guess some of you all (not necessarily you) think our program is a dumpster fire right now.

Football program...  there's smoke coming from the dumpster, and it's kinda hot to the touch.

OVERALL ATHLETICS PROGRAM...   How could you not like what we have going on?

I don't think Traylor is looking to stick around at the G5 level, be-it UTSA, UNT, or anywhere.   Dude is supremely confident in himself.  He's looking to move up as far as possible, as quickly as possible (not taking a roundabout way rescuing UNT's, or anyone else's, football program), and he doesn't really care what he leaves behind in order to do so.   UTSA could go right back to mediocre football with rented facilities, and he won't care, because he got what he wanted out of them.

[UNTcrazy727]

40 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Are you guys really serious?

Do you really think if SL were canned this season, we could just go offer the coaches of the best C-USA teams $300-500K more/yr, and they would gladly jump ship & come to a losing team?   

Again, this sounds like something you or I might do for our careers...  but I've NEVER heard of a FBS football coach leaving a winning program in order to take on a losing team in the same conference just for money.

Has anyone else heard of this?    Can you cite if so?

Tommy Tuberville left Ole Miss for Auburn after the 1998 season. Ole Miss was coming off a 7-5 season with a bowl win while Auburn had just gone 3-8. Not quite the same since Auburn was probably regarded as a slightly better program at the time, but it's the best example I can come up with.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Are you guys really serious?

Do you really think if SL were canned this season, we could just go offer the coaches of the best C-USA teams $300-500K more/yr, and they would gladly jump ship & come to a losing team?   

Again, this sounds like something you or I might do for our careers...  but I've NEVER heard of a FBS football coach leaving a winning program in order to take on a losing team in the same conference just for money.

Has anyone else heard of this?    Can you cite if so?

I'm not really arguing with your thought process because you're mostly right. But Dan Mullen comes to mind, his move from Mississippi State to Florida. 

[rcade]

53 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Do you really think if SL were canned this season, we could just go offer the coaches of the best C-USA teams $300-500K more/yr, and they would gladly jump ship & come to a losing team?

The debate is whether a move from UTSA to UNT would be a step down, not whether Traylor would actually do it.

I can't think of any coaches who left the top job at one school to take the top job at another in the same conference. Nick Saban moved from LSU to Alabama but had the decency to fail in the NFL for one season first.