Hypocrisy???

[NT93]

Honest question because I don't know the answer.  The following is an assumption that I have always made.

Isn't it true that anti-vaxxers, pre-COVID, have typically been mostly liberal types and conservatives have cried foul because these people were sending their kids to school unvaccinated?  

Now, in the COVID era, there has been a complete reversal.

Again, maybe I'm wrong on this.  Maybe it's been mostly conservatives who have been anti-vaxxers all along.  

So, have I been mistaken about this all along?  I hope for honest dialogue because I'm very open minded on the subject.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Antivaxx has always had it's toe firmly dipped into evangelical and right wing church crowd. Vaccination requirements were a big reason for home schooling. That was mostly driven from the right wing side..

"Liberals" are typically pro science and provaxx. The way out there liberal, which leans toward libertarian, i don't consider liberal as much just weird.

I wouldn't call this any hypocrisy at all. When my kids school enforced the measle vaccination schedule and made NO religious exemption, it wasn't liberal people who transferred schools.. or decided to home school.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

We both likely suffer from confirmation bias, because we both likely are pro-vaxx and when presented with it pre-covid, we assumed that it was true for our 'side'.. 

Pew research find it was pretty close on who FOUND vaccines 'unsafe' .. 12-10% in each side. But! 

https://theconversation.com/anti-vaccination-beliefs-dont-follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001

"When we look at whether people think that vaccination should be mandatory or a parent’s choice, a different story emerges.

Now it is only the very conservative who are more likely to think that it should not be mandatory: they are twice as likely as moderates to think that it should be a parent’s choice. Liberals are now more likely to think vaccination should be required: Compared to moderates, liberals are 43.5 percent less likely to think it should be a parent’s choice and those who are very liberal are 14.2 percent less likely."

So, even back then, liberals that maybe thought they were unsafe were not against mandatory vaccinations. Now, liberals still think that way and the other side is just growing.  I don't think I'm suffering from confirmation bias in this covid anti-vaxx.. i think one side has been swayed more.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[MeanGreenTexan]

4 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

We both likely suffer from confirmation bias, because we both likely are pro-vaxx and when presented with it pre-covid, we assumed that it was true for our 'side'.. 

Pew research find it was pretty close on who find them 'unsafe' .. 12-10% in each side. But! 

https://theconversation.com/anti-vaccination-beliefs-dont-follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001

"When we look at whether people think that vaccination should be mandatory or a parent’s choice, a different story emerges.

Now it is only the very conservative who are more likely to think that it should not be mandatory: they are twice as likely as moderates to think that it should be a parent’s choice. Liberals are now more likely to think vaccination should be required: Compared to moderates, liberals are 43.5 percent less likely to think it should be a parent’s choice and those who are very liberal are 14.2 percent less likely."

But I don't think I'm suffering from confirmation bias in this covid anti-vaxx.. i think one side has been swayed more.

 

I mean, I’d hardly call Anti-vaxx champion Jenny McCarthy an “evangelical”! 😂

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

8 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I mean, I’d hardly call Anti-vaxx champion Jenny McCarthy an “evangelical”! 😂

I don't know that I would call her liberal either. While she is on The View, she was the 'republican' panel person up there... now she is claiming that the producers were pushing her to be that way. Either way, it was catering to a certain base, and it wasn't me, even if she was "acting republican." She doesn't have to have her husband's political leanings, but Donnie Wahlberg endorsed Rubio for president. https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6882895/donnie-wahlberg-marco-rubio-president-endorse

Trump was a vaccine causes Autism since 2007. https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-mtblog-2007-12-trump_autism_linked_to_child_v-story.html  - I am definitely not calling him liberal. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[MeanGreenTexan]

3 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

I don't know that I would call her liberal either. All my liberal crowd thinks she is cringe worthy. But you know, while she is on The View, she was the 'republican' up there... now she is claiming that the producers were pushing her to be that way. Either way, it was catering to a certain base, and it wasn't me, even if she was "acting republican."

Trump was a vaccine causes Autism since 2007. https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-mtblog-2007-12-trump_autism_linked_to_child_v-story.html  - I am definitely not calling him liberal. 

Man, you lost me on “The View” stuff.  I don’t even pretend to know what’s up on that show.   Aren’t they a revolving door of talking heads?  Had no idea she was one of them.

Also, circa 2007, wasn’t Trump more ‘liberal’?   And I can most certainly confirm that a man who says he has no need for forgiveness is not an “evangelical”, at least, in the true sense of the word.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

9 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Also, circa 2007, wasn’t Trump more ‘liberal’?   And I can most certainly confirm that a man who says he has no need for forgiveness is not an “evangelical”, at least, in the true sense of the word.

Sure sure, more liberal in 2007 - then "switched" his registration to republican in 2009. He has along line of "autism is caused by the shot" quotes well into his run for the Whitehouse.  Trump grew up in that Norman Vincent Peale church - which definitely formed his 'no need to apologize' attitude. That's a whole different level of religion. I'd say that is more evangelical than most - the whole "God's salesperson" mantra that Peale had. But again... that is not my expertise. 

But if the conversation is pre-covid - there are definitely studies. It looks fairly balanced, except for the question about if it should be mandated. 

But if we can talk about NOW https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/the-anti-vaxx-party-is-taking-shape.html then ... I am truly curious how it happened so quickly when NT03's assumption about the right wingers trying to force mandate in school... and then for this... it is scary. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[MeanGreenTexan]

1 minute ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Sure sure, more liberal in 2007 - then "switched" his registration to republican in 2009. He has along line of "autism is caused by the shot" quotes well into his run for the Whitehouse.  Trump grew up in that Norman Vincent Peale church - which definitely formed his 'no need to apologize' attitude. That's a whole different level of religion. I'd say that is more evangelical than most - the whole "God's salesperson" mantra that Peale had. But again... that is not my expertise. 

Oh yeah, he switched a lot around, and somehow hoodwinked almost half of the USA!  Incredible…. But I’m veering way off topic.  From the people I’ve known to be anti vaxx prior to all of this, it was fringe people who somehow got tied up with some quack doctors/pediatricians.  Some leaned hard one way socially/politically, and others the opposite way.  Didn’t seem to make much sense.

But I agree with @NT93, we’re seeing quite the stand from the far right on the Covid vaccine.  At least, that’s how it seems to me.

[NT93]

My impression was always that liberals were “following the science” with the “vaccines cause autism”argument.  From my experience in the teaching field, it seemed to me that the parents who were choosing not to have their children vaccinated we’re almost always liberal.  In honesty, that was my opinion as I didn’t know their true political leanings.  Also, it was a small sample size.  
 

 

[ADLER]

I have been in southern Louisiana for the last couple of weeks.

Only 29% of the residents in Baton Rouge are vaccinated, and only 37% of the residents in New Orleans are vaccinated... and it's not because there are a lot of evangelicals.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

13 minutes ago, ADLER said:

I have been in southern Louisiana for the last couple of weeks.

Only 29% of the residents in Baton Rouge are vaccinated, and only 37% of the residents in New Orleans are vaccinated... and it's not because there are a lot of evangelicals.

That rate goes for almost all of the parishes in Louisiana - which we can all agree lean hard right (outside of a handful).

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

But further looking, I think, shows your claim is wrong. New Orleans and Baton and Baton Rouge are in fairly good shape.. leading the state.

 

[ADLER]

Thank you.

Both maps are encouraging in that they indicate people are making much smarter decisions than the local news had given them credit for.

 

[KingDL1]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:03 PM, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Antivaxx has always had it's toe firmly dipped into evangelical and right wing church crowd. Vaccination requirements were a big reason for home schooling. That was mostly driven from the right wing side..

"Liberals" are typically pro science and provaxx. The way out there liberal, which leans toward libertarian, i don't consider liberal as much just weird.

I wouldn't call this any hypocrisy at all. When my kids school enforced the measle vaccination schedule and made NO religious exemption, it wasn't liberal people who transferred schools.. or decided to home school.

This so sad and untrue.

 

In my experience liberals only follow science that fits their agenda, and even more times it is based a form of pseudoscience not pure science. If the science does not fit liberal's narrative they dismiss it. 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

[KingDL1]

25 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Its a poll, from what is a liberal leaning new source who cares? I read that some the highest rates of unvaccinated exist among people of color, not the usual Trumpers.  

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/nyregion/covid-vaccine-black-young-new-yorkers.html

Plus mRNA vaccines are far from proven that is why I went with J@J. But I can understand the reservations

Edited September 5, 2021 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

4 minutes ago, KingDL1 said:

Its a poll, from what is a liberal leaning new source who cares? I read that some the highest rates of unvaccinated exist among people of color, not the usual Trumpers.  

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/nyregion/covid-vaccine-black-young-new-yorkers.html

Plus mRNA vaccines are far from proven that is why I went with J@J. But I can understand the reservations

I get that. I admitted I was surprised that so many liberals were antivax in the study.. and said I/we suffer from confirmation bias.

It's surprising that its statistically equal prior to Covid. But as for the covid vaccine survey? Even if you don't want to believe this poll for the liberal MSM, other "real" studies show the same data - which shows a real shift in who is antivax now. I wonder if anti-covid-vax will spill over to antivaxvax.

 

[Mean Green Matt]

7 minutes ago, KingDL1 said:

Its a poll, from what is a liberal leaning new source who cares? I read that some the highest rates of unvaccinated exist among people of color, not the usual Trumpers.  

Why Only 28 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/nyregion/covid-vaccine-black-young-new-yorkers.html

Plus mRNA vaccines are far from proven that is why I went with J@J. But I can understand the reservations

I don’t think the adenovirus vector J&J platform is THAT much more proven than the MRNA. On some level it does the same thing as the MRNA vaccines, just one step further back, since the AV vaccine enters the nucleus. 

[KingDL1]

1 minute ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

I get that. I admitted I was surprised that so many liberals were antivax in the study.. and said I/we suffer from confirmation bias.

It's surprising that its statistically equal prior to Covid. But as for the covid vaccine survey? Even if you don't want to believe this poll for the liberal MSM, other "real" studies show the same data - which shows a real shift in who is antivax now. I wonder if anti-covid-vax will spill over to antivaxvax.

 

I held you a spot at Tailgate yesterday, missed you.  How is everything. 

[KingDL1]

1 minute ago, Mean Green Matt said:

I don’t think the adenovirus vector J&J platform is THAT much more proven than the MRNA. On some level it does the same thing as the MRNA vaccines, just one step further back, since the AV vaccine enters the nucleus. 

Of the three I felt it was the closest to a tradition vaccine, it seems to be holding up really good against the variants also. 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

11 minutes ago, KingDL1 said:

I held you a spot at Tailgate yesterday, missed you.  How is everything. 

Ah you know - my antivax hardcore right wing brother in law has been hospitalized for the last 10 days after catching it from his daughter who was sent home from school with a fever, my son is at home quarantined because of close contact at school, the school around the corner has 25% of the kids out sick, the district i live is is moving to virtual, the school district by my lake house had two teachers die on the same day and closed down... And the hospital is overflowing. It's pretty dire. Just trying to fight misinformation and skepticism. The vaccine is really the key to getting back to normal. Pet meds are not.. at least not yet. 

I'm happy you got the J&J man. If you don't have kids at home and are vaccinated, things can seem pretty normal. That's awesome. I do miss tailgating. Movies. Parties. Just counting down the months until my kids can get the vaccines..

Edited September 5, 2021 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[KingDL1]

4 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Ah you know - my antivax hardcore right wing brother in law has been hospitalized for the last 10 days after catching it from his daughter who was sent home from school with a fever, my son is at home quarantined because of closed contact at school, the school around the corner has 25% of the school district i live is in absent and are moving to virtual... And the hospital is overflowing. It's pretty dire. Just trying to fight misinformation and skepticism.

I'm happy you got the J&J man. If you don't have kids at home and are vaccinated, things can seem pretty normal. That's awesome. I do miss tailgating. Movies. Parties. Just counting down the months until my kids can get the vaccines..

I am not sure why people are not pumping up the vitamin D3 plus a little zinc if they are choose not to get vaccinated. 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

That quote about black NYC unvaccinated is a problem for sure. But here in Texas we have this rhetoric. 

"Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick blames Democrats for low vaccinations among Black residents, but more white Texans are unvaccinated"

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/20/dan-patrick-black-democrats-vaccine-white-republicans/

It is not addressing the real problem.

But either way, I'm happy the vaccination pace has picked up again.

The Herman Cain Awards are too numerous. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[KingDL1]

11 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

That quote about black NYC unvaccinated is a problem for sure. But here in Texas we have this rhetoric. 

"Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick blames Democrats for low vaccinations among Black residents, but more white Texans are unvaccinated"

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/20/dan-patrick-black-democrats-vaccine-white-republicans/

It is not addressing the real problem.

But either way, I'm happy the vaccination pace has picked up again.

The Herman Cain Awards are too numerous. 

Dumb thing in that is Hispanic is not a race  and it is being misused. 

[Cr1028]

5 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

 

Vaccinated for Covid. The topic was about vaccinated in general historically.