Please tell me UNT is actively looking to move up. Let's get some real conference rivals

Monkeypox · August 2, 2021

5 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

The number one factor in recruiting is conference affiliation.

So overcoming SMU advantage in that regard is not going to happen unless there is a conference shakeup.

You state a lot of facts without backing them up. You aver NT does not compare to other AAC teams in budget. Yes, you are correct only because the AAC distributes a lot more money to its members than CUSA.

A budget can be made just about any way you want it. Unless you spend a lot of effort, there is little information actually there. College athletics are non-profit meaning revenues at some point have to equal expenditures.

You completely disregard what keeps NT and 80% of other G5's afloat, student fees.

A conference shakeup is only going to happen due to money. So, we aren't going anywhere until we force our way by increasing the value of our program. At this point, that's primarily going to have to come from increasing our fanbase (winning) and donor base (winning, promotion, finding some more deep pockets). The vast majority of the schools that are above us in the pecking order have always been above us in the pecking order when it comes to finances and recruiting, so while it's easy to say "yes, but if we were in the same conference, they wouldn't be", it's simply not realistic, because we've never BEEN in the same conference. And despite the role that politics plays, it's mainly about MONEY. After all, if it were purely politics, then A&M, UT, Arkansas, and OU wouldn't all (about to) be in the SEC while the tattered remains of the SWC lies in the Big12 and AAC wastelands.

So, sure, we can chicken-and-egg it and pretend that if we were admitted tomorrow to the Big12, we'd be just as valuable a program as TCU, but the reality is we haven't been, at least in MY lifetime, so it's not gonna happen JUST BECAUSE. That chicken is dead and generations of eggs have hatched in the meantime. Double our ticket sales, double our donor base, THEN we'll have something. Until then, we'll be where we've been since I started school at UNT in the 1990s... at the bottom of the totem pole.

And, since you asked, the money that's outside of conference distribution payments from media contracts, as well as licensing, student fees, and university/school funding (annual-2019*). This doesn't count the private schools and schools with state exemptions, as they are not required to report:

AAC:

Houston - $4-6m in ticket sales, $8-9m in donor contributions.

UCONN - $8-10m in ticket sales, $6-7m in donor contributions

UCF - $6m in ticket sales, $5-10m in donor contributions

Cincy - $6-7m in ticket sales, $4-6m in donor contributions

ECU - $6-7m in ticket sales, $6-10m in donor contributions

Memphis - $8-10m in ticket sales, $9-13m in donor contributions

USF - $3-5m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

CUSA:

ODU - $3-4m in ticket sales, $4-6m in donor contributions

Charlotte - $1-2m in ticket sales, $4-5m in donor contributions

UNT - $1-1.8m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

FIU - $600k-$1.2m in ticket sales, $1-3m in donors (only last 3 years, massive variance and diddly before that)

UAB - $1.1-2m in ticket sales, $3-5m in donor contributions

FAU - $900k-2m in ticket sales, $2-4m in donor contributions (also highly variant, from $1.3-8m)

MTSU - $1-1.7m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

UTSA - $2m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

UTEP - $1.5-2m in ticket sales, $3-4m in donor contributions

Marshall - $3-3.5m in ticket sales, $3-4m in donor contributions

WKU - $2-2.4m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

USM - $2-3m in ticket sales, $3-4m in donor contributions

La Tech - $1.5-2m in ticket sales, $4-6m in donor contributions

Getting the student fees and school funding that make up 2/3 of our total revenue is certainly value added and demonstrates a firm commitment to athletics, BUT it's also the least desirable and potentially dangerous way to fund a program.

* I tried to fairly eyeball/average/estimate based on a range over the last 5-10 years. Some schools have more variance than others. I was generally conservative in trying to find more realistic numbers, as some schools might usually get $3-5m and have a big $8-9m contribution come in one year. Anyone is free to look for themselves, though, and come to their own conclusions.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances

https://sports.usatoday.com/2020/07/05/methodology-for-2019-ncaa-athletic-department-revenue-database/

GrayEagle · August 2, 2021

OWW!!! We have met the enemy and he is us.

As soon as someone comes up with an idea to improve our lot the same dozen or two have to shoot it down. If some here ever had a positive thought it would die of solitary confinement.

Yes, our figures don't match up on ticket sales or donations because of the conference that we're in and unattractive opponents. Our equalizer is our student fees. And when you consider that we have over 40,000 students it's not a particular steep fee for good results. When we play well known regional teams we will draw a lot of interest and I would expect to see an increase in attendance and donations.

We are in so much better shape than we've ever been in to make a move up. We have a Chancellor and an Athletic Director that are much more connected. If this idea won't fly with them it won't see the light of day. We have facilities that are better than we've ever had and on par with all but the former P5s that would be in the new conference. If they can get some of their contacts on board they could be the ramrods.

I believe that we will see a turnaround season this year in football and basketball is on the road to greater success. Our talent keeps improving and I believe that in a few short years that we could be in the upper echelon of that conference.

I would hope that if Oklahoma State doesn't find a home to their satisfaction they might become a part of the Texhoma Conference. If that happens the conference might become a P5/P6 conference.

So, until we know that this will never work, why not at least be upbeat for now? You'll have a lot less wrinkles.

Cooke County Kid · August 2, 2021

I think everyone knows what the problem is, a lack of interest and money. In fact I think most of us have a pretty good grasp as to what it will take to fix both. WIN GAMES and a lot of them and the money will follow. How do you win games if you do not have the financial resources to compete with your fellow conference mates let alone step up to a "better" conference. Give as much as you can, I've increased mine in the past and I guess I need to again. The time is now guys, if you can, try to increase your contributions by 50% or more and be sure to attend games and take someone with you!

GO MEAN GREEN!!!
WIN GAMES!!!

GrandGreen · August 2, 2021

3 hours ago, Monkeypox said:

A conference shakeup is only going to happen due to money. So, we aren't going anywhere until we force our way by increasing the value of our program. At this point, that's primarily going to have to come from increasing our fanbase (winning) and donor base (winning, promotion, finding some more deep pockets). The vast majority of the schools that are above us in the pecking order have always been above us in the pecking order when it comes to finances and recruiting, so while it's easy to say "yes, but if we were in the same conference, they wouldn't be", it's simply not realistic, because we've never BEEN in the same conference. And despite the role that politics plays, it's mainly about MONEY. After all, if it were purely politics, then A&M, UT, Arkansas, and OU wouldn't all (about to) be in the SEC while the tattered remains of the SWC lies in the Big12 and AAC wastelands.

So, sure, we can chicken-and-egg it and pretend that if we were admitted tomorrow to the Big12, we'd be just as valuable a program as TCU, but the reality is we haven't been, at least in MY lifetime, so it's not gonna happen JUST BECAUSE. That chicken is dead and generations of eggs have hatched in the meantime. Double our ticket sales, double our donor base, THEN we'll have something. Until then, we'll be where we've been since I started school at UNT in the 1990s... at the bottom of the totem pole.

And, since you asked, the money that's outside of conference distribution payments from media contracts, as well as licensing, student fees, and university/school funding (annual-2019*). This doesn't count the private schools and schools with state exemptions, as they are not required to report:

AAC:

Houston - $4-6m in ticket sales, $8-9m in donor contributions.

UCONN - $8-10m in ticket sales, $6-7m in donor contributions

UCF - $6m in ticket sales, $5-10m in donor contributions

Cincy - $6-7m in ticket sales, $4-6m in donor contributions

ECU - $6-7m in ticket sales, $6-10m in donor contributions

Memphis - $8-10m in ticket sales, $9-13m in donor contributions

USF - $3-5m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

CUSA:

ODU - $3-4m in ticket sales, $4-6m in donor contributions

Charlotte - $1-2m in ticket sales, $4-5m in donor contributions

UNT - $1-1.8m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

FIU - $600k-$1.2m in ticket sales, $1-3m in donors (only last 3 years, massive variance and diddly before that)

UAB - $1.1-2m in ticket sales, $3-5m in donor contributions

FAU - $900k-2m in ticket sales, $2-4m in donor contributions (also highly variant, from $1.3-8m)

MTSU - $1-1.7m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

UTSA - $2m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

UTEP - $1.5-2m in ticket sales, $3-4m in donor contributions

Marshall - $3-3.5m in ticket sales, $3-4m in donor contributions

WKU - $2-2.4m in ticket sales, $2-3m in donor contributions

USM - $2-3m in ticket sales, $3-4m in donor contributions

La Tech - $1.5-2m in ticket sales, $4-6m in donor contributions

Getting the student fees and school funding that make up 2/3 of our total revenue is certainly value added and demonstrates a firm commitment to athletics, BUT it's also the least desirable and potentially dangerous way to fund a program.

* I tried to fairly eyeball/average/estimate based on a range over the last 5-10 years. Some schools have more variance than others. I was generally conservative in trying to find more realistic numbers, as some schools might usually get $3-5m and have a big $8-9m contribution come in one year. Anyone is free to look for themselves, though, and come to their own conclusions.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances

https://sports.usatoday.com/2020/07/05/methodology-for-2019-ncaa-athletic-department-revenue-database/

I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Ticket sales and donor contributions are all closely tied to the conference that a team is part of.

If you think that NT would not better revenues in a better conference, then we will just have to disagree.

Actually, NT has gotten some great major donations in the last few years. NT obviously needs to substantially improve the quantity of athletic donations.

NT seems to me to be improving in almost all athletic financial metrics.

To be exact, this is not an anti-CUSA tirade, I think it is a good home for the teams in it. Just attempting to point out that conference affiliation is a major if not the most important factor in recruiting.

Edited August 2, 2021 by GrandGreen

meangreen11 · August 2, 2021

16 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

If you think that NT would not better revenues in a better conference, then we will just have to disagree.

Yep just like the leftover Big 12 schools have no value now that UT has left them.

tmjerm · August 3, 2021

35 minutes ago, Cooke County Kid said:

I think everyone knows what the problem is, a lack of interest and money. In fact I think most of us have a pretty good grasp as to what it will take to fix both. WIN GAMES and a lot of them and the money will follow. How do you win games if you do not have the financial resources to compete with your fellow conference mates let alone step up to a "better" conference. Give as much as you can, I've increased mine in the past and I guess I need to again. The time is now guys, if you can, try to increase your contributions by 50% or more and be sure to attend games and take someone with you!

GO MEAN GREEN!!!
WIN GAMES!!!

Bless you and yes!

Monkeypox · August 3, 2021

4 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

You state a lot of facts without backing them up. You aver NT does not compare to other AAC teams in budget. Yes, you are correct only because the AAC distributes a lot more money to its members than CUSA.

A budget can be made just about any way you want it. Unless you spend a lot of effort, there is little information actually there. College athletics are non-profit meaning revenues at some point have to equal expenditures.

This was you, right? I mean, I showed you how your statement is objectively false. The information, for public schools, is readily available and frequently compiled. Then, when I did, you moved the target.

11 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I am sure what you are trying to prove. Ticket sales and donor contributions are all closely tied to the conference that a team is part of.

If you think that NT would not better revenues in a better conference, then we will just have to disagree.

Actually, NT has gotten some great major donations in the last few years. NT obviously needs to substantially improve the quantity of athletic donations.

NT seems to me to be improving in almost all athletic financial metrics.

To be exact, this is not an anti-CUSA tirade, I think it is a good home for the teams in it. Just attempting to point out that conference affiliation is a major if not the most important factor in recruiting.

I've proven that UNT is far below AAC teams in its budget even when you remove conference distributions and licensing from the equation, which you stated was the ONLY thing that made them different than us.

Yes, our revenue would be better in a better conference. So we should just be in the SEC or Big12, then, and then we'd be as good as TCU and we'd have to expand our stadium to 40-50k. Why are we aiming for the lowly AAC at all? They should just let us in because reasons.

So sure, if we were in the AAC, we'd increase our revenue. We'd sell more tickets and get more donors. But so would ANYBODY in CUSA. So, once again, what are we delivering to the AAC, especially if we're not in the top 3rd of our CURRENT CONFERENCE for ticket sales and donations. This means that our program, more than others, is relying primarily on those student fees, university funding, and conference payouts for our revenue. And if I'm picking between 2 or 3 or 8 teams and trying decide who would benefit my conference the most, I'm gonna go with the ones with more fans and more big money donors.

greenminer · August 3, 2021

8 hours ago, wardly said:

Fans of Big time programs go to see their team play regardless of opponent. Fans of Small time programs go to see only those games that have attractive opponents. We will always sell tickets to SMU, but never to ODU.

Thinking of 1990s Boise State, and App St. If you build a brand the right way, you will have the right fanbase.

Wish there was a formula for that kind of build. Until then, it's a lot of luck and mystery.

97and03 · August 3, 2021

Having been to the ODU game and hung out with their alumni, they support their program much better than we do. Wouldn’t be surprised to see them move up the chain at some point.

On another point, funding by student fees isn’t viewed as a positive for us. It’s been great for the program but it means we can’t fund ourselves through donations. It’s actually likely viewed as a negative by a perspective conference.

wardly · August 3, 2021

Football programs such as ours will become, if they have not already, a gate revenue sport. If there is less money coming in then you must reduce the amount going out. This may mean reductions in administrative staff and coaching salaries, as well as travel expenses. I have a hard time justifying $2 million annually for a head football coach with basically an even won/ loss record but hey, that's just me. While regionalization will reduce travel cost my greatest fear is that at some point the BIG 12 will poach at least 4 programs from the AAC. Memphis, Houston, Cincy , and Central Florida come to mind. That leaves us in a CUSA/Belt hybrid conference that includes UTEP,UTSA,Texas State, and Rice, truly the worst of the worst. I would love to paint a more optimistic scenario, but to date just can't come up with one.

UNT_playmaker · September 13, 2023

Very interesting thread for me to revist and look at hopes to move up, even through it was a huge watered down move

Matt from A700 · September 13, 2023

2 minutes ago, UNT_playmaker said:

Very interesting thread for me to revist and look at hopes to move up, even through it was a huge watered down move

And that everyone thought the Big XII was going to be the P5 to implode.