Updated: DRC -- UNT finalizes extensions with McCasland, Mitchell (buyout info for McCasland)

untbowler · July 30, 2021

13 hours ago, adman said:

You could say John Hedlund for soccer? (He's still here ya know?)

Hedlund is head and shoulders above anyone, in any sport, that has coached at North Texas, at any time. All the dude does is win. Starts program from scratch - has winning seasons for next 26 years straight. 16 Conference Championships - 8 Runner Up.- 7 NCAA appearances.

but has his team won a NCAA Game, much less score a goal in a NCAA game? Great coach in CUSA but get exposed when playing teams with better ability

GrandGreen · July 30, 2021

2 hours ago, untbowler said:

but has his team won a NCAA Game, much less score a goal in a NCAA game? Great coach in CUSA but get exposed when playing teams with better ability

Most coaches are as you say exposed when they play a team of better ability.

Because of their seed coming from CUSA, they are always playing a top 10 type team in the first round. Example last tournament game against #3 Arkansas in first round. They played well till under last 10 minutes of game behind 0-1, than had to take chances and lost 0-3.

This is like the football team going up against a Michigan, Clemson or Alabama and being disappointed when they are blown out.

greenminer · July 30, 2021

Looking forward to the day Hedlund can get over that postseason hump, but also super aware that he enters that portion of the schedule year-in-and-out facing a gigantic leap in quality of competition.

Seems like the same story every year. Not sure what can be done.

Jonnyeagle · July 30, 2021

3 hours ago, untbowler said:

but has his team won a NCAA Game, much less score a goal in a NCAA game? Great coach in CUSA but get exposed when playing teams with better ability

In his defense it seems like he doesn't get very good seedings. Also, a lot of times they have to play on the opponent home turf with their refs. Soccer refs can really impact the winners and losers especially when you are on the road.

Mean Green Matt · July 30, 2021

21 minutes ago, greenminer said:

Looking forward to the day Hedlund can get over that postseason hump, but also super aware that he enters that portion of the schedule year-in-and-out facing a gigantic leap in quality of competition.

Seems like the same story every year. Not sure what can be done.

He could change the style of play for starters. His style of play is incongruent with beating teams of similar or superior athletic ability. We win in CUSA because we simply put-athlete the competition.

NorthTexasSportsNetwork · July 30, 2021

3 hours ago, untbowler said:

but has his team won a NCAA Game, much less score a goal in a NCAA game? Great coach in CUSA but get exposed when playing teams with better ability

Scored against A&M in 2018 I believe. Probably the best game they’ve played in a tournament because it went to the last PK if I remember correctly.

NorthTexasSportsNetwork · July 30, 2021

11 minutes ago, Jonnyeagle said:

In his defense it seems like he doesn't get very good seedings. Also, a lot of times they have to play on the opponent home turf with their refs. Soccer refs can really impact the winners and losers especially when you are on the road.

Very true. 2019 they got a really good Arkansas team that beat 2 top 3 teams that year. Those girls were massive compared to ours.

I do think the tide is turning in the size of our athletes in general. We are getting bigger not just in soccer, but football basketball etc.

meangreen11 · July 30, 2021

2 minutes ago, NorthTexasSportsNetwork said:

Very true. 2019 they got a really good Arkansas team that beat 2 top 3 teams that year. Those girls were massive compared to ours.

I do think the tide is turning in the size of our athletes in general. We are getting bigger not just in soccer, but football basketball etc.

Agreed and part of it is Hed is doing the SMU thing were he recruits lots of big school transfers. He used to do mainly high school players only.

NorthTexasSportsNetwork · July 30, 2021

Just now, meangreen11 said:

Agreed and part of it is Hed is doing the SMU thing were he recruits lots of big school transfers. He used to do mainly high school players only.

Yeah because In the past 2 years, we’ve landed upwards to around 9-10 transfers from bigger schools.
That’s a really positive sign, not just for soccer, but looking at all other sports it’s starting to happen.

It used to be a rarity to land someone that came from a P5, but now it seems normal. Hopefully it stays that way, and eventually land those kids out of high school instead of waiting a few years.

GrandGreen · July 30, 2021

11 minutes ago, Mean Green Matt said:

He could change the style of play for starters. His style of play is incongruent with beating teams of similar or superior athletic ability. We win in CUSA because we simply put-athlete the competition.

The point is that in the NCAA's, NT doesn't play against teams with similar athletic ability.

They play against superior talent, if you don't think so: spend some time and review the opponent's player bios against NT's.

Hedlund recruits almost entirely area athletes and very seldom gets the top tier of those players.

Generally the team with the best athletes win. Playing a more wide open style would much more likely get NT blown out in the NCAA tournament than actually getting a win.

Nothing like criticizing by far NT's most successful coach because he just can't beat a top 10 team with multiple times the resources he has.

greenminer · July 30, 2021

1 hour ago, Mean Green Matt said:

He could change the style of play for starters. His style of play is incongruent with beating teams of similar or superior athletic ability. We win in CUSA because we simply put-athlete the competition.

Are we talking X-and-Os? that point is valid but only so much.

If I'm a football coach, I can install a few new packages and adjust positioning, but I'm not going to have a completely new system on call for a different part of the schedule.

...or maybe I will have one? I have much less insight into the logistics of soccer.

Edited July 30, 2021 by greenminer

Mean Green Matt · July 30, 2021

2 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

The point is that in the NCAA's, NT doesn't play against teams with similar athletic ability.

They play against superior talent, if you don't think so: spend some time and review the opponent's player bios against NT's.

Hedlund recruits almost entirely area athletes and very seldom gets the top tier of those players.

Generally the team with the best athletes win. Playing a more wide open style would much more likely get NT blown out in the NCAA tournament than actually getting a win.

Nothing like criticizing by far NT's most successful coach because he just can't beat a top 10 team with multiple times the resources he has.

First of all, we do play a pretty open style right now. Most of the time I think I see them in a 4-4-3. But there is no real rhyme or reason to it. We, generally, just blast the ball forward and let our players run onto it. This works when you play against inferior competition. It’s the equivalent of throwing a Hail Mary every time. When you have receivers a foot taller than the cornerbacks, you are going to win more than you lose. we have talented soccer players. But he doesn’t take advantage of it by teaching them tactical soccer.

The excuse that we are playing top teams is tired. We have the same draw when we get to the tournament in men’s basketball and I don’t recall that being an overarching excuse for being generally non competitive.

As to your last paragraph, and I used to be on your side of it but am no longer, the fact that he’s successful is irrelevant. He has raised his own bar for the program. And he’s been stalled for about 15 years.

Mean Green Matt · July 30, 2021

2 hours ago, greenminer said:

Are we talking X-and-Os? that point is valid but only so much.

If I'm a football coach, I can install a few new packages and adjust positioning, but I'm not going to have a completely new system on call for a different part of the schedule.

...or maybe I will have one? I have much less insight into the logistics of soccer.

Yes X & Os. @Travisis the one that really swayed me on this. I’m not referring to changing style for one opponent. I’m talking about changing style for all opponents and being more competitive in the long run. This team is unfortunately schemed to win CUSA and CUSA only.

Mean Green Matt · July 30, 2021

3 hours ago, NorthTexasSportsNetwork said:

Scored against A&M in 2018 I believe. Probably the best game they’ve played in a tournament because it went to the last PK if I remember correctly.

I didn’t go back to look but I’m almost certain we lost that game 1-0 in overtime with TAMU scoring with a couple of minutes left before PKs would have happened. We did, I believe hot a cross bar in OT which would have one it if it’d have gone in.

UNTLifer · July 30, 2021

11 minutes ago, Mean Green Matt said:

I didn’t go back to look but I’m almost certain we lost that game 1-0 in overtime with TAMU scoring with a couple of minutes left before PKs would have happened. We did, I believe hot a cross bar in OT which would have one it if it’d have gone in.

https://meangreensports.com/news/2018/11/9/womens-soccer-unt-bows-out-in-heartbreaking-ot-loss.aspx

NorthTexasSportsNetwork · July 30, 2021

51 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

https://meangreensports.com/news/2018/11/9/womens-soccer-unt-bows-out-in-heartbreaking-ot-loss.aspx

Okay that makes sense. But my point stands on that was our best tournament game played.

Mean Green Matt · July 30, 2021

13 minutes ago, NorthTexasSportsNetwork said:

Okay that makes sense. But my point stands on that was our best tournament game played.

Unfortunately, yes. A game in which we absorbed pressure for 110 minutes while hardly (with a couple exceptions) threatening to score and almost made it to PKs.

GrandGreen · July 31, 2021

4 hours ago, Mean Green Matt said:

First of all, we do play a pretty open style right now. Most of the time I think I see them in a 4-4-3. But there is no real rhyme or reason to it. We, generally, just blast the ball forward and let our players run onto it. This works when you play against inferior competition. It’s the equivalent of throwing a Hail Mary every time. When you have receivers a foot taller than the cornerbacks, you are going to win more than you lose. we have talented soccer players. But he doesn’t take advantage of it by teaching them tactical soccer.

The excuse that we are playing top teams is tired. We have the same draw when we get to the tournament in men’s basketball and I don’t recall that being an overarching excuse for being generally non competitive.

As to your last paragraph, and I used to be on your side of it but am no longer, the fact that he’s successful is irrelevant. He has raised his own bar for the program. And he’s been stalled for about 15 years.

Well, first in my mind; being stalled as the best in the conference for 15 years is something I wish our other teams could accomplish.

As far as basketball: NT last year won their first ever NCAA tournament game. As far as NCAA tournament basketball, NT lost to UNC 65-83 in 1988, to Memphis 58-73 in 2007, and to Kansas State 62-82 in 2010

I can assure you there was plenty of discussion about the quality of the opposition in those contests.

I certainly don't possess the soccer knowledge to second guess NT's most successful coach. However I am sure he would welcome your advice on how to tactically play the game.

Mean Green Matt · July 31, 2021

11 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Well, first in my mind; being stalled as the best in the conference for 15 years is something I wish our other teams could accomplish.

As far as basketball: NT last year won their first ever NCAA tournament game. As far as NCAA tournament basketball, NT lost to UNC 65-83 in 1988, to Memphis 58-73 in 2007, and to Kansas State 62-82 in 2010

I can assure you there was plenty of discussion about the quality of the opposition in those contests.

I certainly don't possess the soccer knowledge to second guess NT's most successful coach. However I am sure he would welcome your advice on how to tactically play the game.

Ok.

greenminer · July 31, 2021

If we continue the basketball analogy, is Hedlund's postseason draw like JJ drawing Kansas State/Memphis, or more in line with the bball team getting Gonzaga or Baylor?

Travis · August 4, 2021

It is hard to question Hedlunds success. I completely understand why we would never let him go. UNT's content on winning conference championships and thats our only goal for the program. And it is a fine one compared to any other program we have.

But, if we wanted to look beyond our conference and aim higher, then Hedlund would be a terrible pick. And it is terrible based on tactics alone. As a competitive club head coach, I can say that the strategy he implements against the best teams in the nation that make the tournament are truly the easiest to defend. He relies heavily on a counter with a long ball. He sits his forwards high and largely shells up the rest of the team. Drop a few defenders back to keep the one or two threats at bay and you win the game. You don't even need to change much against a Hedlund team because they practically give you the entire midfield to work with the vast majority of the time. (Think controlling the midfield as controlling the O and D lines in football. You control the lines you will pretty much win the game evey time). He gets away with it when it comes to conference because the talent is lesser. I would even say he gets away with it in preconference because other teams don't get the time spent on learning his team like they do in the tournament. There is a reason we perform so poorly in NCAA tournament games. And it isn't like the BB reference where the score may look lopsided in the end but much of the game was fairly close.... In these UNT soccer tournament games, we are flat out dominated and out coached through the whole game, every game... the 2018 aTm game included. To have a fighting chance we have to give up on the long ball during these games and go to heavy possession with the midfield as the strength to work the ball down the field. The problem is... to get good at it isn't just a one week prep. It is an entire season. A whole different approach/system.

We haven't only played top tier soccer teams in the NCAA tournament. We played Texas Tech and SMU and neither were the Alabama's of the soccer program in those respective years. But in both of those, like any other tournament game, we get flat out dominated. It is just how it is when we play how we play.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Travis

MeanGreenTexan · August 4, 2021

10 minutes ago, Travis said:

It is hard to question Hedlunds success. I completely understand why we would never let him go. UNT's content on winning conference championships and thats our only goal for the program. And it is a fine one compared to any other program we have.

But, if we wanted to look beyond our conference and aim higher, then Hedlund would be a terrible pick. And it is terrible based on tactics alone. As a competitive club head coach, I can say that the strategy he implements against the best teams in the nation that make the tournament are truly the easiest to defend. He relies heavily on a counter with a long ball. He sits his forwards high and largely shells up the rest of the team. Drop a few defenders back to keep the one or two threats at bay and you win the game. You don't even need to change much against a Hedlund team because they practically give you the entire midfield to work with the vast majority of the time. (Think controlling the midfield as controlling the O and D lines in football. You control the lines you will pretty much win the game evey time). He gets away with it when it comes to conference because the talent is lesser. I would even say he gets away with it in preconference because other teams don't get the time spent on learning his team like they do in the tournament. There is a reason we perform so poorly in NCAA tournament games. And it isn't like the BB reference where the score may look lopsided in the end but much of the game was fairly close.... In these UNT soccer tournament games, we are flat out dominated and out coached through the whole game, every game... the 2018 aTm game included. To have a fighting chance we have to give up on the long ball during these games and go to heavy possession with the midfield as the strength to work the ball down the field. The problem is... to get good at it isn't just a one week prep. It is an entire season. A whole different approach/system.

You're also asking for completely different personnel too. This kind of philosophy change would likely result in a few "down years". Besides, it's like asking Littrell to start running the triple-option because it minimizes turnovers and keeps possession offensively... it's just not what he knows. You're asking to can Hedlund, and I don't think UNT/Wren Baker can justify that.

With Hedlund's style, he's able to bring in some really excellent defenders, and some very special forwards. What goal-scorer wouldn't want to play this style? Quick counters that get you the ball deep in the opponent's 1/3 with scrambling defenders & space to crank shots...

There are teams that can be successful playing a longball style too, and I would assume if Hedlund could bring in class after class of A&M's caliber, we'd be able to knock them off eventually.

Travis · August 4, 2021

55 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

You're also asking for completely different personnel too. This kind of philosophy change would likely result in a few "down years". Besides, it's like asking Littrell to start running the triple-option because it minimizes turnovers and keeps possession offensively... it's just not what he knows. You're asking to can Hedlund, and I don't think UNT/Wren Baker can justify that.

With Hedlund's style, he's able to bring in some really excellent defenders, and some very special forwards. What goal-scorer wouldn't want to play this style? Quick counters that get you the ball deep in the opponent's 1/3 with scrambling defenders & space to crank shots...

There are teams that can be successful playing a longball style too, and I would assume if Hedlund could bring in class after class of A&M's caliber, we'd be able to knock them off eventually.

Hmm Interesting take. I am not sure that long ball means more goals vs possession. It really doesn't work that way. Our girls all can trap, distribute, move off the ball, and make smart runs. It wouldn't be hard to implement if they are give the proper headspace and education. I don't think it is a difference in personnel so much as it is a new playbook (so to speak). These girls are capable and I bet many of them already have done it in their clubs. They show brief flashes of it at times but it isn't their priority. I think it would be easier transition than say a move from Dickey ball to Dodge ball.

Possession typically creates more goals than long ball. Throwing up hail mary's (long ball) doesn't always mean they will turn into touchdowns. Typically you are on an island and we don't even have the forwards for that even now (I would argue). It is something similar to hail mary's (for lack of a better example)... It just doesn't work well against formidable opponents. Think how the Spanish play vs how the Nigerians play on the world stage. There is a reason long ball/quick transition type teams never win World Cups... most, if not all, don't even make it past the group stage.

I do agree with you that I am not sure Hedlund can or would be willing to do that. He wins enough to have him firmly positioned at UNT with winning conference championships. But we wont ever make a splash in the NCAA's. And I would love love love more than anything to be wrong. But, if you track my soccer related posts since the early 2000's I have really been saying the same thing over and over. And I will be damned that Hedlund has made me into a prophet.

UNTLifer · August 5, 2021

Since it seems I started this discussion on the team taking the next step, let me clarify my point. I am far from a soccer expert, but as some have mentioned, it is our style of play in these games that drives me crazy. Hedlund knows more about the game than I could ever dream of, I just want it to appear that we are trying to win. The style reminds me of old Dickey ball where we look like we are happy to be there. I am ready to see us take the next step. Figure out what it takes to get the players in place to advance the program and beat the likes of Tech, A&M and Arkansas. This may be unrealistic, but it is my wish.