Derek Chauvin Found Guilty on All Three Counts

[Rudy]

I get what you're talking about, but the way you prevent crimes is by not only being seen, but making contacts with people.  At my last agency, which was a small city, literally in the middle of nowhere, I would stop and talk to people, especially in the deep nights.  If I saw someone walking around, I'd stop and talk to them.  I'd ask their names and just check.  Explain to them that I am just out here working and trying to make sure everyone is safe.  If they asked if I had any probable cause, usually I would say yes if there was some.  Otherwise I would say no, but explain to them that there have been recent burglaries in this area, or there is a lot of drug use in x area, etc.  or I would just pose a hypothetical, if someone they loved was the victim of a crime, wouldn't they want me out there making contacts with people in the possible event that I was talking to the person who harmed them.  Usually, they understand.  

 

I understand what you are saying, but the rules still apply.  People in those communities may feel targeted, but its not intended to be that way.  You prevent crimes, and sometimes solve them, by doing the little work.  Get out there and talk to your citizens.  I think that alot of the misunderstanding could be solved with some calm dialogue between the citizens of those areas and the officers that work them.  Explain why they are out there and don't always keep it business.  Learn their interests and talk about that.  I don't care about the NBA, but If I see someone with a Lebron jersey, I'm asking the question, "Lebron or MJ?"  

 

Prior to this, I actually did work in security for "high risk" apartments.  Apartments in those very areas that you are referencing.  I got to know the people that lived there.  This complex was spread out onto 3 different streets in NE Dallas, off of the 635/Jupiter/Kingsley area.  But I got to know the people there.  Every night the first thing I did was roll through and go talk to the people I saw every night and shot the shit.  They told me every damn thing that was going on.  But to an outside observer, they just see a white guy in a uniform talking to a black man or a black woman.  

 

Regardless, I think alot of this can be rectified by both sides being calm, and just talking to each other to understand each other's points of view.

[Hunter Green]

1 hour ago, denton_days said:

I don't think I made a generalization, or ever said anything about 'ALL'. I actually intentionally did not mention that because I was aware that it's not correct, and there's many Black people who have gone on to be successful despite many of the problems facing their communities and homes. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1924632/

Here's a scientific article about African Americans and mistrust of the healthcare system. 

Not sure I would classify this as a "scientific" article, but rather a survey from one hospital in one city. I'm sure it reflects the attitudes from this particular demographic, but it's a pretty small sample of subjects.

[denton_days]

4 minutes ago, Hunter Green said:

Not sure I would classify this as a "scientific" article, but rather a survey from one hospital in one city. I'm sure it reflects the attitudes from this particular demographic, but it's a pretty small sample of subjects.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19175244/

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19175244/

 

https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Wells-A200421LW-rko-Wells-Lindsay-M.D.-BLM-formatted.pdf

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23955533_African_Americans_and_their_distrust_of_the_health_care_system_Healthcare_for_diverse_populations

 

https://komentoolkits.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mistrust-in-the-Health-Care-System-among-Black-and-African-American-Communities-B-AA-Comm.pdf
 

here’s like 5 more that all reference even more articles. If you wanna look it up there’s like 100 more. Not sure why you’re dying on this hill. These were just the first few that came up on a simple google search.

[Censored by Laurie]

5 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

This is contradictory though.   Either they have adequate training, or they dont.
 

It isn’t though...”cursory” was meant as a sort of basic level, not attempting to remake a police officer into a social worker. Like...maybe police should know CPR, but don’t need a medical degree to serve. 

 

Just kinda like adjusting the attribute sliders on FIFA.

[Hunter Green]

1 hour ago, denton_days said:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19175244/

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19175244/

 

https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Wells-A200421LW-rko-Wells-Lindsay-M.D.-BLM-formatted.pdf

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23955533_African_Americans_and_their_distrust_of_the_health_care_system_Healthcare_for_diverse_populations

 

https://komentoolkits.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mistrust-in-the-Health-Care-System-among-Black-and-African-American-Communities-B-AA-Comm.pdf
 

here’s like 5 more that all reference even more articles. If you wanna look it up there’s like 100 more. Not sure why you’re dying on this hill. These were just the first few that came up on a simple google search.

Not dying on a hill. Just responding to the one article you provided.

[MeanGreenTexan]

14 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

It isn’t though...”cursory” was meant as a sort of basic level, not attempting to remake a police officer into a social worker. Like...maybe police should know CPR, but don’t need a medical degree to serve. 

 

Just kinda like adjusting the attribute sliders on FIFA.

I don't think anyone believes that a mental health certification for a police officer is the same as a LPC or LMHC... let alone more advanced credentials.    

I think the "cursory" training you're referring to may be only slightly less than what officers are receiving now (according to TCOLE, a 40-hour course that costs around $200)?   
Speaking of soccer, right now, I'm looking into getting my D-License from US Soccer, and that training takes longer and costs double.  The E-License (Now called "Grassroots"), which most rec coaches have when coaching above 8-year olds, was about the same amount of training/cost as TCOLE's Mental Health course.

[meanJewGreen]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I don't think anyone believes that a mental health certification for a police officer is the same as a LPC or LMHC... let alone more advanced credentials.    

I think the "cursory" training you're referring to may be only slightly less than what officers are receiving now (according to TCOLE, a 40-hour course that costs around $200)?   
Speaking of soccer, right now, I'm looking into getting my D-License from US Soccer, and that training takes longer and costs double.  The E-License (Now called "Grassroots"), which most rec coaches have when coaching above 8-year olds, was about the same amount of training/cost as TCOLE's Mental Health course.

Not to derail the thread, but I've heard more often than not that the absurd cost to pay USSF is a huge reason why we have a lack of qualified coaches in the US

[Rudy]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:48 AM, greenminer said:

 

 

The reason alot of LEOs dont seek help for suicide is because the stigma, not among their peers, but the general public, ESPECIALLY attorneys.  If an officer seeks counseling for depression or even suicidal thoughts, they put themselves and their agency at risk of a lawsuit should it ever get out.  It shouldn't, but medical records are not always sealed like they should be.  God forbid some attorney ever get ahold of an officer's medical records and bring that up at a trial.  It shouldn't be that way, but it happens. 

[Rudy]

On 4/21/2021 at 7:45 AM, MeanGreenTexan said:

But how many different "certifications" can an officer get before they have all of these specialties covered to the point that they could de-escalate situations as well as someone who has been through much more targeted training?   
It's definitely good to have front-line guys that at least have some training upon arrival to assess a situation, but it would be better to have someone else who is much more qualified to also engage.   A drug user's mind cannot be understood.  Neither can someone who is suffering from a mental health break.

 

22 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

This is contradictory though.   Either they have adequate training, or they dont.

Even if they don't, and the training costs are removed from police budget to fund a more specialized mental health "department" (for lack of a better term), you're talking about the cost of a training session VS someone's salary.  I know those trainings are likely expensive, but they don't equate to a specialized person's salary.

Now, again, with a huge PD like Dallas or Fort Worth or Minneapolis, it may work because their budgets for training all of those officers is likely very high.    

But if I'm not mistaken, Rudy is up in a small town in the Panhandle somewhere, right Rudy?    This kind of direct tradeoff (training budget for specialist) would not be able to be funded without additional taxes.

 

I was just rereading the thread and wanted to add a couple of things.  First, it needs to be pointed out, that it doesn't matter how much training or how many certifications you have, or how good at de-escalation you are, the ultimate determining factor on if a situation will calm down is the offender or the MHMR conusmer.  You can be a trained negotiator, another certification I am considering, but it still depends on the other party.  When I was doing my 40 hour MHMR training, the instructor, who was damn good, showed us body cam footage of one of their calls a few counties over.  It was set in a small city in the panhandle, like mine.  The female was known to them, and they had dealt with her multiple times.  She was 16 at the time, I think.  She was in cirsis and in the back of a storage unit, and had some type of firearm, a hunting rifle, I think.  The two officers spent hours talking to her.  My instructor was the negotiator.  Multiple times she was nearly ready to surrender so they could get her help, but at the last minute, she decided to raise the rifle and they were forced to fire.  Luckily she survived, but it just goes to show that the ultimate decision is theirs. 

 

Second, The training is not cheap no, so typically what agencies do is train as many as they can at a time to reduce cost.  Typically they will train an entire shift at a time on their days off.  Sometimes if it is a shorter course, they will have the officer come in and take the training for a few hours during the shift.  The problem then becomes, if you are training officers on their days off, you have to flex them off during the same pay period, or pay them overtime, which the city and county governments HATE.  But you still have to have adequate staffing to fill the shift.  

 

Third, I am not with that agency anymore, I finally had the opportunity to move closer to home, even for less money.  I now work for a county near the metroplex.  Just for an idea on the size, we have most of one city that has approximately 47K and 26 sq miles, a small part of another city that has 70K and 36sq miles, a city of 30K and 30sq miles, and 6 small towns with an overall area of nearly 800 sq miles. 

[NT93]

First of all, thanks to @Rudyfor your service and for the first hand experience you’ve shared in this thread.  Good stuff.

Second, @Censored by Lauriehas proven, in my estimation, that liberals and conservatives don’t have to disagree on every topic.  While we may not agree 100%,  I think we could easily find a compromise on this subject. 
 

I have nowhere near the experience of a police officer, but I know what they must have to deal with, albeit on a much lower level.  As a teacher, it got very old and frustrating telling the same students the same thing day after day after day.  You wouldn’t think following some simple rules would be so difficult.  Add to the noncompliance a disrespectful attitude and you can see the frustration.  I’m know it’s X1000 for a police officer.

As @Hunter Greensaid, at some point we have to hold the public accountable.  I’ve never really found it difficult to obey the law, but I understand if I do break the law, there will be consequences.  I’m having this issue with my son right now and it’s kind of scary as a parent.  When he breaks one of our rules and is punished, he gets upset at us, his parents.  When I faced a similar situation as a teen, I got upset at myself for getting caught, not at my parents for punishing me.

It’s a complex issue, but I appreciate the civil discourse in this thread.  

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by NT93

[Coffee and TV]

not directly related to the original post, but very much related. 

Number of Capitol riot arrests of military, law enforcement and government personnel rises to 52

So 52 out of the....300 or so indicted at this point? Pretty high percentage of those who swore to uphold and protect the law leading the charge of an insurrection at the highest level. 

But sure, it's just a few bad apples. 

[greenminer]

1 minute ago, Coffee and TV said:

of those who swore to uphold and protect the law

The action at Capital Hill was,in their mind, for this very reason.

Its interesting how the last 5-10 years we have seen both sides acting in against each other, but both believing they are the true patriots.

probably another discussion for another day, but the people in power (political, financial) IMO know that dividing the population - keeping us fighting - is the fuel to their power. For the most part, they are doing this very very successfully.

I don’t find any of our leaders to be unifying. Biden may come across as kind but I don’t think that is the same thing. In fact, many on the right seem to find him repulsive.

this is walking into the political arena. Clocking out for now.

[MeanGreenTexan]

19 minutes ago, greenminer said:

The action at Capital Hill was,in their mind, for this very reason.

Its interesting how the last 5-10 years we have seen both sides acting in against each other, but both believing they are the true patriots.

probably another discussion for another day, but the people in power (political, financial) IMO know that dividing the population - keeping us fighting - is the fuel to their power. For the most part, they are doing this very very successfully.

I don’t find any of our leaders to be unifying. Biden may come across as kind but I don’t think that is the same thing. In fact, many on the right seem to find him repulsive.

this is walking into the political arena. Clocking out for now.

Now moreso than ever before (at least as long as I've been conscious of it).  I mean, look at the way these people talk to each other.  Utter disdain, and not an ounce of respect for "the other side".

Throw in media making money off of the division as well, and now you're just feeding the beast.

[Cr1028]

53 minutes ago, greenminer said:

The action at Capital Hill was,in their mind, for this very reason.

Its interesting how the last 5-10 years we have seen both sides acting in against each other, but both believing they are the true patriots.

probably another discussion for another day, but the people in power (political, financial) IMO know that dividing the population - keeping us fighting - is the fuel to their power. For the most part, they are doing this very very successfully.

I don’t find any of our leaders to be unifying. Biden may come across as kind but I don’t think that is the same thing. In fact, many on the right seem to find him repulsive.

this is walking into the political arena. Clocking out for now.

I can’t see it getting any better until we get away from the two party system. There is way too much this or that with no viable third or fourth option. It has become less about which person I like best, which is the best for my future, or similar thoughts. It has become a process of “that person is on my team” or “that person is not on my team”. We need to rid ourselves of the donkey and the elephant or add 2 or 3 other viable parties to the mix. 

[LongJim]

1 hour ago, Cr1028 said:

 We need to rid ourselves of the donkey and the elephant or add 2 or 3 other viable parties to the mix. 

I agree with your post, but there are other viable parties.  People just have to vote for them and stop voting for 1 side of the same coin.

But now we're entering political territory again, so I'm out.

[Coffee and TV]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:18 AM, greenminer said:

The action at Capital Hill was,in their mind, for this very reason.

Then it just proves how low our standards are for policing if they're that stupid and gullible? 

[greenminer]

Just now, Coffee and TV said:

Then it just proves how low our standards are for policing if they're that stupid and gullible? 

We need to stop this kind of language, IMO.  "You're dumb and gullible" falls right into the fighting/labeling that 1) keeps us divided and, thus 2) amplifies the power/wealth of our leaders.  Would rather us try and understand how we go to this place.

Having said that, I see there are people that have given up on unity and only interested in burying the other side.

[Coffee and TV]

41 minutes ago, greenminer said:

We need to stop this kind of language, IMO.  "You're dumb and gullible" falls right into the fighting/labeling that 1) keeps us divided and, thus 2) amplifies the power/wealth of our leaders.  Would rather us try and understand how we go to this place.
 

Okay you focus on whatever names I call them instead of the reality that an extremely high percentage of cops or former cops bought into the big lie that they were somehow in the right when committing an insurrection. 

[greenminer]

49 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

Okay you focus on whatever names I call them instead of the reality that an extremely high percentage of cops or former cops bought into the big lie that they were somehow in the right when committing an insurrection. 

Not trying to understand how or why they bought into the big lie, I see.  My comments stand.

FOLLOW-UP: I feel like we're going down different paths.  You seem focused on the criminal act in front of us, and I'm trying to talk about how it got to that point.

All the Trumpers I've talked to...guess what? They're actually extremely intelligent, well-read individuals. Not at all dumb and gullible.  Next time you talk to one, try to understand them.  Ask them for 2 or 3 sources.

that's all I'm saying.

Edited April 27, 2021 by greenminer

[Coffee and TV]

29 minutes ago, greenminer said:

FOLLOW-UP: I feel like we're going down different paths.  You seem focused on the criminal act in front of us, and I'm trying to talk about how it got to that point.

I'm focusing on the fact that we don't seem to have very high standards for policing if 1 of every 6 of the insurrectionists was either a current or former police officer.  If you want to believe they're just good upstanding U.S. citizens who are only guilty of doing what they thought was right, then no, we'll never meet in the middle on that.

If you want to know how it got to that point then the answer is plain as day: unregulated "news" readily available on facebook and gab and twitter at their disposal 24 hours a day. 

Quote

All the Trumpers I've talked to...guess what? They're actually extremely intelligent, well-read individuals. Not at all dumb and gullible.  Next time you talk to one, try to understand them.  Ask them for 2 or 3 sources.

lol

Edited April 27, 2021 by Coffee and TV

[MeanGreenTexan]

43 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

Okay you focus on whatever names I call them instead of the reality that an extremely high percentage of cops or former cops bought into the big lie that they were somehow in the right when committing an insurrection. 

OK.   You're keeping us in reality.   I like that.

Is there supposed to be a correlation in here somewhere?
   
I didn't read your article, but according to your numbers >17% of the moronic capitol insurrectionists were peace officers, former peace officers, or military/ex-military...    What is the line you're trying to draw?

Let me see if I can give you a prompt so you can keep us in reality: 

At least 17% of all peace officers and military members are ___________? 

[Coffee and TV]

3 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

 What is the line you're trying to draw?

Let me see if I can give you a prompt so you can keep us in reality: 

At least 17% of all peace officers and military members are ___________? 

There's not really a correlation or a line I'm trying to draw here. This is a thread about police abuses and reforms, I'm asking why that high of a percentage of insurrections turned out to be police or military, and asking what that says about the standards of who is in the police force. 

If you can find info that says 40% of them graduated from Indiana State or 35% were accountants, then you'd probably be asking the same questions. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

36 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

There's not really a correlation or a line I'm trying to draw here. This is a thread about police abuses and reforms, I'm asking why that high of a percentage of insurrections turned out to be police or military, and asking what that says about the standards of who is in the police force. 

If you can find info that says 40% of them graduated from Indiana State or 35% were accountants, then you'd probably be asking the same questions. 

OK, good.   Because it really seemed like you were trying to insinuate that >17% of all police officers are murderous racists just waiting for their opportunity... especially with your last sarcastic dig around "a few bad apples"  (Which, people often leave out the last part of the metaphor:  A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.  It seems the "few bad apple" police officers are doing their part keep the metaphor very much so true).

If you were indeed trying to hint that about police, I doubt you're the only one who thinks this way.  That, thanks to another point you made:  "news" readily available on facebook and gab and twitter at their disposal 24 hours a day."   People have their favorite news sources, and they can all tell the same story in about 45 different ways.   It is a necessary evil of our society.   
In my opinion, people need to learn/re-learn how to think critically so they can parse through all of the poisoned information to come to a grounded conclusion.

I'm not sure what you meant about Indiana St. or accountants.

[Coffee and TV]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I'm not sure what you meant about Indiana St. or accountants.

Then I'm not quite sure you get what I'm saying then. 

If 20% of the insurrections came from gomeangreen.com then the site would probably be shut down, the same way that action was taken against parler on the app stores. UNT would probably be under a ton of scrutiny purely for the loose affiliation with them, and I bet a lot of us would be banned from UNT sporting events rightly or wrongly. 

If 20% of the insurrections are police or military, then what does that say about the culture, training, and standards that are currently set for these institutions? 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Coffee and TV

[UNTLifer]

2 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

Then I'm not quite sure you get what I'm saying then. 

If 20% of the insurrections came from gomeangreen.com then the site would probably be shut down, the same way that action was taken against parler on the app stores. UNT would probably be under a ton of scrutiny purely for the loose affiliation with them, and I bet a lot of us would be banned from UNT sporting events rightly or wrongly. 

If 20% of the insurrections are police or military, then what does that say about the culture, training, and standards that are currently set for these institutions? 

Parler?  It was run out of business by the liberal leaning social media sites, period.