Derek Chauvin Found Guilty on All Three Counts

[Rudy]

17 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Man,  I can't imagine.   I appreciate your service to your community for sure.   As I said before, being a police officer is a noble profession.

If money weren't a concern, and your department could hire someone who went to school for Mental Health to be deployed to those kinds of stops with you, would that person be of assistance?   Obviously, that person is not going to be patrolling, so they would need to be dispatched from wherever they are, and you'd likely beat them there so you'd have to assess & diffuse the situation until that person arrived... but once they got there, do you think they could take over the "talking" while you just make sure no one gets hurt?

This is just a discussion.   Your expertise/experience obviously weighs a lot more than my spit-balling.   I'm in no way challenging you, just asking questions and trying to see if there would be ways to help y'all & keep instances like this thread topic from happening.

No worries. I don't mind discussion. I don't think any cop has an issue with people who genuinely want to have an actual civil discussion and truly learn about the job and explore ways to improve it. 

 

In regards to your idea. It's not really a concern of money in regards to the specific agency, outside of the possible lawsuits from them being injured, and that is going to mostly fall on the governmental body, i.e. the city or county.  The specialist's employer is going to be the one to foot the bill to put their people on the streets unless the actual governmental entity is their employer, then you're taking money away from other places like streets, public works, HR, etc.

 

The fastest and best way would be for them to arrive alongside with the officer so they could hopefully defuse a situation before it escalates. But, unless you have specialists for every type of situation riding in every car, you're still rolling the dice on does a particular officer have a specialist for a certain field riding with them. They could be in a car that's 5 or 10 minutes away.  A LEO's first priority to ANY call is safety, both to themselves and to the general public.  If the person who is in crisis has a weapon, or something that could be used as a weapon, or in some way could pose a threat, that HAS to be addressed first. What good can you for the person in crisis if you're having to apply a tourniquet and provide medical care to someone who has a screwdriver in them?  EMS isn't going to make scene until it's safe.  If fire and/or EMS won't respond until it's safe, will a counselor?  And Fire/EMS have tools on them that could be used as weapons for self defense. 

 

So we could Dispatch them from the office, home, or a facility, it will still take time for them to arrive. Let's say, for example, that they are having to respond to a call in a nice quiet suburb with not an excessive amount of traffic. it will still take at least 5 minutes for them to arrive. They don't have the training for emergency driving. A lot can happen in the time it takes for them to get there. You could try dispatching them at the same time so they could get their quicker, and they could stage near the call location like EMS. But, half the time, and that's a conservative estimate, the call is nothing like what is dispatched. So unless you're dealing with a frequent MHMR consumer, you're potentially burning money that the taxpayers are going to be footing the bill.  I'm not saying none of those ideas are worth a try, but they have potential severe complications. Also, their response time will be considerably longer than 5 minutes. What about a rural county of 800 miles?  Think of how long it will take them to respond. 

 

The way these situations are handled now is basically what you suggest, just there is no outside trained counselor. Law enforcement arrives on scene, ensures the scene is safe, or renders it safe to the best of their abilities for the given situation. Use the MHMR training they have received, and if legally able, detain them and take them to a mental health facility for further evaluation. 

 

They can't take everyone either. The law is very specific on when you can take someone against their will, to be evaluated. They are not breaking any laws by simply having a mental health issue. So there is a fine line on taking someone on a mental health warrant based on the 4th Amendment. Sometimes the best you can do is try to get family to take them, or try to convince them to go on their own. Had a call a couple of years ago where a guy called because he thought there were people in his home. He was in his late 20's or early 30's with no history of mental illness. Myself and the other deputy saw signs of developing schizophrenia. So the best we could do was to try and convince him to get himself evaluated. I think he did, but not sure. 

 

[Hunter Green]

15 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Yikes.  That’s a sobering read.  
I can only imagine the stress police officers are under on a daily basis (then compound that with military training that is different from policing & PTSD if they were deployed to battle zones), but obviously you can’t just come home & take it out on your family!   

Definitely something worth looking into though.

When I was in school, I shared a house with two other fellas. One was a seminary student and the other was a Mesquite police officer. That was thirty years ago. I couldn't believe the amount of abuse my police friend had to endure even for a traffic stop. He got berated and cussed at like you wouldn't believe on a regular basis. He got out of the profession a few years later and I don't blame him. I wouldn't want that job for all the tea in China. Before anyone criticizes them, walk a mile in their shoes.

[CMJ]

When my wife was a LAPD patrol officer (before I met her - our paths didn't first cross till she made Detective), she routinely had to deal with metal health cases.  She told me more than a few times there were specialists on scene, but asked for the police to take the lead because they didn't trust the individual in question wasn't a danger to them.  Seemed sort of opposite of what people might expect - the expert taking the backseat to the officer, but she said it happened many times.

[LongJim]

7 minutes ago, CMJ said:

 she routinely had to deal with metal health cases. 

 

[Rudy]

Some cities do cross train police and fire, but they will still patrol in their police vehicles. Don't even try to imagine the gas bill for a patrolling fire engine.  He'll, I'm all for being cross trained. Sign me up. It's not a good feeling when you arrive at a house fully engulfed in flames and you're waiting on the fire fire department in the closest town to arrive and you don't know if the house is occupied and you're fighting the heat and smoke to try and figure out a way in. Thank God, one of the residents showed up and confirmed the house was empty. But cross training doesn't work in rural areas. Many towns only have volunteer fire departments.  People are always thinking about your big cities and suburbs, but fail to take into account just how much of the population resides out in the rural areas. 

 

Creating a separate agency or team to handle mental health calls is fine, but you still have to train them to protect themselves. They aren't going to a situation where they could be at risk without having the ability or tools to protect themselves. And again, most of a police agency's budget goes to basic needs like salary, benefits and basic equipment. 

 

Regarding the supremacists in the job, there are racists, bigots and general pricks of all types that slip through the cracks. It's not just racist white people. And it's not tolerated. Action is taken when they are discovered. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Rudy

[denton_days]

21 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

We're approaching tin-foil-hat territory here.

For sure politicians are for the most part just power-hungry people who don't really care about you or me.  That may be a discussion for a different thread.   But do you genuinely believe the U.S. government is out to get you?

Definitely 'just existing' in certain areas can put you looking down the barrel of a gun on the regular. Two black guys were biking on the side of the street and cops pulled up and aimed their guns at the guys because they fit the description of a robbery somewhere. They cops made them crawl 20 yards on their stomachs to the cop car, and then harassed them for having their Passport and not a valid ID. One of the dudes was listening to music, and was trying to communicate that he needed to take his earphones out to listen, but there was a miss-communication for a second. Thank god no one got shot. I think I saw it on Reddit. this kind of shit is constantly happening. Many black people can tell you that they've been needlessly harassed and have had guns drawn on them for asinine things on the regular. I don't think the 'just existing' thing is tin-foil.

[Rudy]

2 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

there has probably been a slight uptick in the last year for obvious reasons...it was for many the most difficult year of their lives and have struggled in coping...it's also eliminated a lot of safe spaces for those in abusive situations. 

but if your question was meant more societally...I don't think there is really a shift in volume of mental health cases/issues, more that they're more freely discussed/less stigmatized and better recognized (perhaps even in part due to things like your training)

My question was definitely more along societal lines, and it's based on the past 10+ years, but yes, there have been a large number of cases the past year due to the 'rona.  Personally and professionally, I think the uptick has been due partially because of the larger general awareness and training in MHMR, but also because of pharmaceutical companies. Every medication has side effects that are fixed by more meds that have more side effects that are solved by more meds and so on. 

Many MHMR patients stop taking their medications because of the side effects and the way it makes them feel. 

 

The mental health issue is definitely a societal problem. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Rudy

[denton_days]

Thanks Rudy for talking and taking the time to explain from the inside a bit more. Here are some of the realistic solutions people are asking for, and maybe my two cents in there.

No one is asking for more useless certifications. Require cops to go to therapy. That's what therapists do, and they have to handle lots of emotional baggage too.

Stop over-policing. It causes more crime. If a doctor makes a mistake in a high stress environment, they get their license revoked.

Yes, there is a racism problem in the police, just like all walks of life. But the difference is police have guns and have power. My hair stylist may be a racist and I had no idea, but at least they don't have a gun and are told to use force. Police have inherent power, and that power should be regulated and constantly checked. 

The problem with police in mental health situations, is that when they show up to ensure that the scene is safe, a lot of times they end up elevating the situation. 

Bad cops are not held accountable because there are no systems in place to make sure that good cops are handling bad cops. It's just cops handling cops, if that makes any sense. There's no boundary for what qualifies a good or a bad cop. Sure, cops hold each other accountable, but outside third party court needs to be instated to handle internal issues. I don't doubt that cops try and keep each other accountable, but it is constantly is not working out, and people are dying because of it. Needs to be a better solution that what's already in place. 

Most of the cops that have been in the news lately for killing black people have a history of problems. Why the douchebag were they still on the force. Don't give me that 'honest mistake' crap. Derek Chauvin had 18 complaints prior to killing George Floyd. That's not an honest mistake, that zero internal accountability. 

The problem with ex-military in the police is that war veterans have so many mental health issues that can make them a liability when it comes to being a cop and handling a weapon again. Going from Army to police is a big shift. If you don't see how they are different, then figure out how. I'm not exactly sure what needs to happen, but something does. 

Sorry this is long, but I'm late and have a lot to say but I work from home, so I don't get to socialize a lot and talk about this. Happy to have a discussion with anyone about this. End of the day shit needs to change.

[MGNation92]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

We're approaching tin-foil-hat territory here.

For sure politicians are for the most part just power-hungry people who don't really care about you or me.  That may be a discussion for a different thread.   But do you genuinely believe the U.S. government is out to get you?

[MeanGreenTexan]

21 minutes ago, denton_days said:

Definitely 'just existing' in certain areas can put you looking down the barrel of a gun on the regular. Two black guys were biking on the side of the street and cops pulled up and aimed their guns at the guys because they fit the description of a robbery somewhere. They cops made them crawl 20 yards on their stomachs to the cop car, and then harassed them for having their Passport and not a valid ID. One of the dudes was listening to music, and was trying to communicate that he needed to take his earphones out to listen, but there was a miss-communication for a second. Thank god no one got shot. I think I saw it on Reddit. this kind of shit is constantly happening. Many black people can tell you that they've been needlessly harassed and have had guns drawn on them for asinine things on the regular. I don't think the 'just existing' thing is tin-foil.

Good call.   Sadly, this is true, but I don't know if this was the angle MGNation92 was going for.

[denton_days]

1 hour ago, Hunter Green said:

While all the talk is on Police reform, where does the responsibility for the general public lie? It appears to me the common denominator here is that most of these fatal outcomes are the result of non-compliance and resisting arrest. Not to justify what happened with George Floyd, but he was coherent enough, initially, to go into a grocery store and pass a counterfeit $20 bill. Police are called and when law enforcement is enacted, that's when all hell breaks loose. So where is the responsibility of we, as citizens, to act responsibly and to obey the law and those who's job it is to enforce it? In my judgement, it's a two way street. Be respectful and respect will be shown. Resist and things usually don't go well for all involved.

Black people in america have a large distrust of the systems of government. This isn't a generalization, it's a proven fact. The healthcare system has constantly let them down. The police have constantly let them down. Education and schools have let them down. I think it's easy, and I'm not sure what everyone here's background or race is, as affluent, college educated people who I believe are mostly white to just say to 'be respectful'. I'd honestly take the time to read and listen to black people who live these experiences. There's some good books out there I could recommend. 'Men we Reaped' is great, 'The New Jim Crow' is also good. There's honestly a wide array of books and resources available if you truly want to understand. I think it's hard to justify the status quo by saying people just need to be more respectful of those in power. No one deserves to be die, even if they do resist arrest.

[denton_days]

16 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Good call.   Sadly, this is true, but I don't know if this was the angle MGNation92 was going for.

ah, yeah I went back and I'm not 100% positive where MGN was coming from. Regardless it's an important thing to recognize!

[meanJewGreen]

First off I appreciate @Rudy providing his insights as an LEO. 

Second, while we come from completely divergent angles on this, I think it's pretty great how civil this conversation has generally been. 

[CMJ]

37 minutes ago, denton_days said:

Derek Chauvin had 18 complaints prior to killing George Floyd. That's not an honest mistake, that zero internal accountability. 

 

I have not looked into the complaints, but all officers get complaints. My wife got a complaint for not ticketing two Hispanic guys that were drinking in a park by a Black woman who said that if they'd been Black my wife would have arrested them.  So she made an official complaint against her, even though...you know....my wife was trying not to get into a useless confrontation.

Edited April 21, 2021 by CMJ

[denton_days]

2 minutes ago, CMJ said:

I have not looked into the complaints, but all officers get complaints. My wife got a complaint for not ticketing two Hispanic guys that were drinking in a park by a Black woman who said that if they'd been Black my wife would have arrested them.  So she made an official complaint against her, even though...you know....she was trying not to get into a useless confrontation.

Sorry for your wife. I understand that anyone can just file a complaint, however as cited by a police officer in one of the articles below, 19 is higher than what should be expected. And while all those files are closed up, two of them still ended with him getting reprimanded. Also, another officer on the scene had a case that required the police to pay out 25k because of cruel and unusual punishment/negligence. Seems to be something to be concerned about. 

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/05/9846650/minneapolis-police-derek-chauvin-history-force

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-officer-complaints-george-floyd/index.html

[Rudy]

There's a lot there and I'm typing on my phone during breaks but I'll try to break it down. 

These certifications are far from useless. I would hardly call my Master Peace Officer Certification "useless". I would hardly call mental health certification, which is one that I want to obtain, "useless". Are they perfect and make someone an expert, no. But we are continually training and training over training we already have.  But these "useless" certifications are the exact training everyone is calling for. 

 

What you call " over policing" is often mistaken for proactive policing. I may not give a shit about your broken taillight. But I'm going to stop for it and make you aware of the issue, and make sure you don't have a warrant for kidnapping in Colorado (yes, that happened). 

 

Yes, we are held accountable, it just may not be to your liking. Every state has a state agency that every agency answers to. Texas has TCOLE.   As far as Chauvin, do we know if those complaints were valid?  I know in Texas, for it to be an official complaint, certain steps must be taken. It's possible that some of those complaints were not valid. 

[MGNation92]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Good call.   Sadly, this is true, but I don't know if this was the angle MGNation92 was going for.

46 minutes ago, denton_days said:

ah, yeah I went back and I'm not 100% positive where MGN was coming from. Regardless it's an important thing to recognize!

My point was all inclusive.

Black people have been terrorized by the police since the country was founded. You can even point to FDR putting Japanese people in camps. Hispanics in cages/cells on the border since forever. Native Americans being relocated and forced to live in "designated areas". The Vietnam Draft. It goes on. 

Our government has plenty of blood on it's hands, both historically and present day. My point is tyrannical governments do what tyrannical governments do. Deal with people they don't like

 

[Rudy]

Ok, break time just about over. I also appreciate how civil this discussion has been. In my opinion, if everyone who is able needs to go on ride along with varying agencies to get an actual idea on law enforcement. Go ride with a rural county where your running code for 10+ minutes to the other side of an 800 sq mi county. Go ride in a large city where there's some dude motioning that he wants to shoot you just for driving by. 

 

Go experience a use of force simulator. Personally I think the ones with live actors are the best. 

 

Go through a civilian police program to learn more about law enforcement. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Rudy

[Hunter Green]

I hope this doesn't get me banned, but I thought this was pretty funny and my attempt to lighten the mood, even though it has been pretty respectful.

 

[denton_days]

12 minutes ago, Rudy said:

These certifications are far from useless. I would hardly call my Master Peace Officer Certification "useless". I would hardly call mental health certification, which is one that I want to obtain, "useless". Are they perfect and make someone an expert, no. But we are continually training and training over training we already have.  But these "useless" certifications are the exact training everyone is calling for. 

 

oh I agree! I was more so referencing someone earlier mentioning that more and more certs are useless. I agree that they should continue, but I also think Therapy should be required. Makes too much sense not to. 

Quote

What you call " over policing" is often mistaken for proactive policing. I may not give a shit about your broken taillight. But I'm going to stop for it and make you aware of the issue, and make sure you don't have a warrant for kidnapping in Colorado (yes, that happened). 

I mean over-policing in poorer zip codes, but 'proactive policing' also is what is causing Black people mainly not to trust the police. In Urban cities, when 'proactive policing' is really only strongly enacted in Black communities, it really is a race problem for what seems like mostly black people getting constantly harassed for just existing. Living in a place surrounded by crime where people are constantly harassed by cops and live in fear of a police state does not breed people who trust the police. I will admit that it does lower crime rates in the short term, but there are countless examples of proactive policing escalating into violent situations, or breaking down trust through putting specifically black people in poor communities through constant bullshit. It is causing a problem, and isn't something that can just be accepted or not addressed. 

 

Quote

Yes, we are held accountable, it just may not be to your liking. Every state has a state agency that every agency answers to. Texas has TCOLE.   As far as Chauvin, do we know if those complaints were valid?  I know in Texas, for it to be an official complaint, certain steps must be taken. It's possible that some of those complaints were not valid. 

I get that the police have a system, but it is not working. It needs to change. TCOLE does education and gives and takes certifications, but it's well known that they frequently don't do enough, and are not active enough. TCOLE is well known for being flawed. Regardless of the system we have, something needs to change.

[El Paso Eagle]

1 hour ago, meanJewGreen said:

First off I appreciate @Rudy providing his insights as an LEO. 

Second, while we come from completely divergent angles on this, I think it's pretty great how civil this conversation has generally been. 

I second your second. The more conversations we have and the more we are willing to listen and look at issues from all sides the better the chance of making changes that will actually make a lasting difference. We need to address the issues openly and be willing to admit the problems we have, regardless of the comfort level. Dismissing others views from the beginning does not usually lead to successful change.

[El Paso Eagle]

6 minutes ago, denton_days said:

I mean over-policing in poorer zip codes, but 'proactive policing' also is what is causing Black people mainly not to trust the police. In Urban cities, when 'proactive policing' is really only strongly enacted in Black communities, it really is a race problem for what seems like mostly black people getting constantly harassed for just existing. Living in a place surrounded by crime where people are constantly harassed by cops and live in fear of a police state does not breed people who trust the police. I will admit that it does lower crime rates in the short term, but there are countless examples of proactive policing escalating into violent situations, or breaking down trust through putting specifically black people in poor communities through constant bullshit. It is causing a problem, and isn't something that can just be accepted or not addressed. 

 

I get that the police have a system, but it is not working. It needs to change. TCOLE does education and gives and takes certifications, but it's well known that they frequently don't do enough, and are not active enough. TCOLE is well known for being flawed. Regardless of the system we have, something needs to change.

Trying to follow your logic. So your recommendation is for areas "surrounded" by crime have less of a police presence? In cases where there are escalations your thought is the police are always responsible so if they were not there the issues would not happen? It seems your recommendation is that in high crime areas we should leave those committing the crimes alone and let them do as they choose. Would you prefer the police to focus in areas where crime is low?

[Hunter Green]

1 hour ago, denton_days said:

Black people in america have a large distrust of the systems of government. This isn't a generalization, it's a proven fact. The healthcare system has constantly let them down. The police have constantly let them down. Education and schools have let them down. I think it's easy, and I'm not sure what everyone here's background or race is, as affluent, college educated people who I believe are mostly white to just say to 'be respectful'. I'd honestly take the time to read and listen to black people who live these experiences. There's some good books out there I could recommend. 'Men we Reaped' is great, 'The New Jim Crow' is also good. There's honestly a wide array of books and resources available if you truly want to understand. I think it's hard to justify the status quo by saying people just need to be more respectful of those in power. No one deserves to be die, even if they do resist arrest.

In spite of your denial, there is a lot of generalization in your statement. Nothing is always ALL. Most perhaps, but not all.  I am a huge fan of Denzel Washington and for good reason. Not only is he a great actor, I believe he has the answer to societies ill's. Society. Not just black or white or brown or yellow. Again, I hope this doesn't get deleted or banned, but these gentlemen make the case much better than I ever could. God Bless you.

 

[denton_days]

13 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Trying to follow your logic. So your recommendation is for areas "surrounded" by crime have less of a police presence? In cases where there are escalations your thought is the police are always responsible so if they were not there the issues would not happen? It seems your recommendation is that in high crime areas we should leave those committing the crimes alone and let them do as they choose. Would you prefer the police to focus in areas where crime is low

Thanks for asking to clarify. It's hard to understand or explain easily. Maybe I'll explain what would be in place instead of proactive policing to illustrate what may happen.

Lots of policing policy and theory, especially in poorer zip codes or places with many people of color, revolves around proactive vs reactive policing. The police, in simple, solves crime problems through reacting to calls, or proactively going and seeking out people who may be criminals - as Rudy was talking about with pulling people over for lights to see if they have a warrant, or stop and frisk in NYC (which is a bit more of a drastic example). What people would want to replace proactive policing with would be 'evidence based policing', where police departments work using scientific formula and data to create more effective and well researched ways to reduce crime. There definitely would be an adjustment period, but through evidence based policing we can have a more dynamic and well thought out response to crime in different areas. Maybe L.A. deals with one issue that the police can enact certain policies and tactics, while NYC has a different issue that is researched and different solutions. This happens through more research partnerships with universities and research firms.

So essentially what would happen is that proactive/over-policing that leads to distrust in police, more violent escalations, and ect. would be replaced with researcher based solutions that are a little bit more dynamic. I linked an amazing article below that highlights it and goes more in depth. 

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/being-smart-crime-evidence-based-policing

[denton_days]

22 minutes ago, Hunter Green said:

In spite of your denial, there is a lot of generalization in your statement. Nothing is always ALL. Most perhaps, but not all.  I am a huge fan of Denzel Washington and for good reason. Not only is he a great actor, I believe he has the answer to societies ill's. Society. Not just black or white or brown or yellow. Again, I hope this doesn't get deleted or banned, but these gentlemen make the case much better than I ever could. God Bless you.

 

I don't think I made a generalization, or ever said anything about 'ALL'. I actually intentionally did not mention that because I was aware that it's not correct, and there's many Black people who have gone on to be successful despite many of the problems facing their communities and homes. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1924632/

Here's a scientific article about African Americans and mistrust of the healthcare system.