Derek Chauvin Found Guilty on All Three Counts

[Rudy]

On 4/21/2021 at 7:45 AM, MeanGreenTexan said:

But how many different "certifications" can an officer get before they have all of these specialties covered to the point that they could de-escalate situations as well as someone who has been through much more targeted training?   
It's definitely good to have front-line guys that at least have some training upon arrival to assess a situation, but it would be better to have someone else who is much more qualified to also engage.   A drug user's mind cannot be understood.  Neither can someone who is suffering from a mental health break.

I handle a TON of mental health calls. Literally, I stopped counting years ago, and there are even more where I am now. I've dealt with a 19 year old who was hearing the master chief from Halo telling him to kill us, 50 year old who fried her brain on meth, and saw people in her house literally 24/7.  We have an issue now of a "community home" where the employees and not qualified, under trained, and under paid. As a result, they call us multiple times per week, sometimes multiple times a day over the same person.  It's not possible to have people who are specialists in one area.  When you say specialists, they are the ones in the facilities that we take them to. If someone is having a mental health crisis, we can only force some to go to a MHMR facility if certain requirements are met.  Law enforcement can not take someone to a mental health facility against their will unless they meet the requirements, because of the US Constitution. 

 

Regarding a drug user's mind, that is one of the ways the officers in Minneapolis screwed up. They failed to recognize the signs of excited delirium from narcotics use. 

 

Sorry if some of this was scatterbrained, I'm in training today and can only type during the breaks. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Rudy

[Rudy]

The one thing I haven't heard anyone ask regarding mental health, is why is there such a large upswing in mental health cases. I think that is just as important as training LEOs to handle mental health consumers. 

[UNTLifer]

59 minutes ago, meanJewGreen said:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-supremacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report

https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-supremacists-seek-affiliation-law-enforcement-goals-internal/story?id=76309051

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/st-louis-sergeant-says-there-are-white-supremacists-on-police-force/

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-02-17/lapd-other-police-agencies-struggle-with-where-to-draw-the-line-with-political-extremism-in-their-ranks

Sounds like an epidemic to me. 

I'm not anti-police but I think policing needs some serious reforming. We ask cops to do too much, but perhaps the training needs to be different. Not only that, but if you have white supremacists on the force, do you truly have a police force that will serve the public? 

Guess what, I could probably pull statistics to support whatever the hell my cause is as well.  There are bad people everywhere, in every line of business/society.  Labelling an entire group as bad, racist, power mongers, etc... is just buying into the narrative.  I am friends with many people that are "first responders", EMS, Police, Fire, DPS, etc...., and I admire every single one of them for the job that they do on a daily basis.  Walk a mile in their shoes before applying labels or claiming their are "epidemics" in their profession.

[UNTLifer]

30 minutes ago, Rudy said:

I handle a TON of mental health calls. Literally, I stopped counting years ago, and there are even more where I am now. I've dealt with a 19 year old who was hearing the master chief from Halo telling him to kill us, 50 year old who fried her brain on meth, and saw people in her house literally 24/7.  We have an issue now of a "community home" where the employees and not qualified, under trained, and under paid. As a result, they call is multiple times per week, sometimes multiple times a day over the s It's not possible to have people who are specialists in one area.  When you say specialists, they are the ones in the facilities that we take them to. If someone is having a mental health crisis, we can only force some to go to a MHMR facility if certain requirements are met.  Law enforcement can not take someone to a mental health facility against their will unless they meet the requirements, because of the US Constitution. 

 

Regarding a drug user's mind, that is one of the ways the officers in Minneapolis screwed up. They failed to recognize the signs of excited delirium from narcotics use. 

 

Sorry if some of this was scatterbrained, I'm in training today and can only type during the breaks. 

Trying to talk sense into "armchair" quarterbacks is futile.  Thank you for what you do on a daily basis.

[MeanGreenTexan]

42 minutes ago, Rudy said:

I handle a TON of mental health calls. Literally, I stopped counting years ago, and there are even more where I am now. I've dealt with a 19 year old who was hearing the master chief from Halo telling him to kill us, 50 year old who fried her brain on meth, and saw people in her house literally 24/7.  We have an issue now of a "community home" where the employees and not qualified, under trained, and under paid. As a result, they call is multiple times per week, sometimes multiple times a day over the s It's not possible to have people who are specialists in one area.  When you say specialists, they are the ones in the facilities that we take them to. If someone is having a mental health crisis, we can only force some to go to a MHMR facility if certain requirements are met.  Law enforcement can not take someone to a mental health facility against their will unless they meet the requirements, because of the US Constitution. 

 

Regarding a drug user's mind, that is one of the ways the officers in Minneapolis screwed up. They failed to recognize the signs of excited delirium from narcotics use. 

 

Sorry if some of this was scatterbrained, I'm in training today and can only type during the breaks. 

Man,  I can't imagine.   I appreciate your service to your community for sure.   As I said before, being a police officer is a noble profession.

If money weren't a concern, and your department could hire someone who went to school for Mental Health to be deployed to those kinds of stops with you, would that person be of assistance?   Obviously, that person is not going to be patrolling, so they would need to be dispatched from wherever they are, and you'd likely beat them there so you'd have to assess & diffuse the situation until that person arrived... but once they got there, do you think they could take over the "talking" while you just make sure no one gets hurt?

This is just a discussion.   Your expertise/experience obviously weighs a lot more than my spit-balling.   I'm in no way challenging you, just asking questions and trying to see if there would be ways to help y'all & keep instances like this thread topic from happening.

[meanJewGreen]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Guess what, I could probably pull statistics to support whatever the hell my cause is as well.  There are bad people everywhere, in every line of business/society.  Labelling an entire group as bad, racist, power mongers, etc... is just buying into the narrative.  I am friends with many people that are "first responders", EMS, Police, Fire, DPS, etc...., and I admire every single one of them for the job that they do on a daily basis.  Walk a mile in their shoes before applying labels or claiming their are "epidemics" in their profession.

I’m not labeling an entire group. However, police officers are one of the few public facing professions where they carry weapons. If white supremacists are allowed in units, think about how that might impact their judgment when out on calls?

”defund the police” is a really bad marketing slogan and begets more hate and anger than anything else. There is nothing wrong with looking inward as a profession (and a society) and figuring out how to best reform policing to best help officers and the public they serve, while also demanding accountability.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by meanJewGreen

[Censored by Laurie]

16 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Man,  I can't imagine.   I appreciate your service to your community for sure.   As I said before, being a police officer is a noble profession.

If money weren't a concern, and your department could hire someone who went to school for Mental Health to be deployed to those kinds of stops with you, would that person be of assistance?   Obviously, that person is not going to be patrolling, so they would need to be dispatched from wherever they are, and you'd likely beat them there so you'd have to assess & diffuse the situation until that person arrived... but once they got there, do you think they could take over the "talking" while you just make sure no one gets hurt?

This is just a discussion.   Your expertise/experience obviously weighs a lot more than my spit-balling.   I'm in no way challenging you, just asking questions and trying to see if there would be ways to help y'all & keep instances like this thread topic from happening.

since money is apparently a concern, why don't we actually just eliminate the fire department and put that under the purview of the police? just throw some garden hoses in the trunk of police cars so they can take on that public service and save some tax dollars. EMTs too...I mean police are already driving around in big SUVs...let's just throw a gurney and IV drip and have police respond to all medical calls as well. K-9 units could serve double as emotional support animals. 

you're getting to the heart of my point and really a large point in the defund movement..."reallocate public resources and services to more specialized professionals" doesn't make for a great protest sign. 

having police trainings across a broad spectrum is great, but still obviously falls short of what expertise a professionally trained social worker or therapist or clinician carries. its akin to saying a person with a CDL and a Bad Boys II DVD is trained to be a police officer.

[Censored by Laurie]

52 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Guess what, I could probably pull statistics to support whatever the hell my cause is as well.  

for sure. we can go back to the covid threads and find direct evidence from you. 

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, Rudy said:

The one thing I haven't heard anyone ask regarding mental health, is why is there such a large upswing in mental health cases. I think that is just as important as training LEOs to handle mental health consumers. 

there has probably been a slight uptick in the last year for obvious reasons...it was for many the most difficult year of their lives and have struggled in coping...it's also eliminated a lot of safe spaces for those in abusive situations. 

but if your question was meant more societally...I don't think there is really a shift in volume of mental health cases/issues, more that they're more freely discussed/less stigmatized and better recognized (perhaps even in part due to things like your training)

[MeanGreenTexan]

6 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

since money is apparently a concern, why don't we actually just eliminate the fire department and put that under the purview of the police? just throw some garden hoses in the trunk of police cars so they can take on that public service and save some tax dollars. EMTs too...I mean police are already driving around in big SUVs...let's just throw a gurney and IV drip and have police respond to all medical calls as well. K-9 units could serve double as emotional support animals. 

you're getting to the heart of my point and really a large point in the defund movement..."reallocate public resources and services to more specialized professionals" doesn't make for a great protest sign. 

having police trainings across a broad spectrum is great, but still obviously falls short of what expertise a professionally trained social worker or therapist or clinician carries. its akin to saying a person with a CDL and a Bad Boys II DVD is trained to be a police officer.

I'm not sure I follow.
Of course money is a concern.   People aren't doing this for free.   So it has to be funded somehow.    FDs are already fully funded & I don't think people are really calling for their reform.

However, the quote you highlighted was more in response to Rudy as it seemed like he was maybe saying that he has had plenty of training on mental health/substance abuse to be able to handle the situations himself.    And I bet he can, as evidenced by his citations that he HAS.    But, I would be interested in his opinion of having someone who has made their career helping mental health patients being of assistance (would it, or would it not?) in a vacuum where money is of no concern.    From there, costs (of all kinds, not just financial) could be discussed.

[NorthTexasSportsNetwork]

Can’t wait to see this thread locked like half of the ones on this site that are “controversial”!

Oh don’t forget guys, no memes or GIFs that have anything political even if the intent isn’t political! That’s a ban on here!

Edited April 21, 2021 by NorthTexasSportsNetwork

[MGNation92]

Since I posted the article and started this .....discussion, I'll throw in my two cents. 

The only things police should be enforcing are the rights to liberty for all people. Other than that, every law can, at some point, be enforced at the end of a gun.

They are a weapon of the State, and as the State grows in power and totalitarianism, the police will enforce it (Right or left)

Decriminalizing non-violent crimes would be a start. But, the government enjoys power too much to let that happen. If you want an extreme left case, look at China. Nazi Germany for the extreme right. Hell if you want to look at America, look at what police officers did to people of color for hundreds of years. As long as we continue to elect politicians that are more concerned with lining their pockets than letting people be free to make their own decisions and live their lives, we will continue to see this kind of brutality.

Am I saying to abolish police? Maybe. But at the least, we should heavily diminish what they can do. That, and arm yourself to the teeth.

Probably gonna get downvoted into oblivion, but that's to be expected. Taxation is theft. The government hates you, and will have no qualms about murdering you, your kids, and your dog. Police only help to enable that.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

   

[meanJewGreen]

1 minute ago, MGNation92 said:

Since I posted the article and started this .....discussion, I'll throw in my two cents. 

The only things police should be enforcing are the rights to liberty for all people. Other than that, every law can, at some point, be enforced at the end of a gun.

They are a weapon of the State, and as the State grows in power and totalitarianism, the police will enforce it (Right or left)

Decriminalizing non-violent crimes would be a start. But, the government enjoys power too much to let that happen. If you want an extreme left case, look at China. Nazi Germany for the extreme right. Hell if you want to look at America, look at what police officers did to people of color for hundreds of years. As long as we continue to elect politicians that are more concerned with lining their pockets than letting people be free to make their own decisions and live their lives, we will continue to see this kind of brutality.

Am I saying to abolish police? Maybe. But at the least, we should heavily diminish what they can do. That, and arm yourself to the teeth.

Probably gonna get downvoted into oblivion, but that's to be expected. Taxation is theft. The government hates you, and will have no qualms about murdering you, your kids, and your dog. Police only help to enable that.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

   

*continue to do

[MGNation92]

2 minutes ago, meanJewGreen said:

*continue to do

Agreed. The boot comes down the hardest on minorities. Unfortunately, eventually the boot comes for us all.

[Hunter Green]

14 hours ago, Rudy said:

Many agencies are working towards training all of their officers as mental health officers. But it's a lengthy and costly process. And yes, they will cost more. With every additional certification and specialization, they get paid more. 

All this while cries of "defund the police" reign down.

[Censored by Laurie]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I'm not sure I follow.
Of course money is a concern.   People aren't doing this for free.   So it has to be funded somehow.    FDs are already fully funded & I don't think people are really calling for their reform.

However, the quote you highlighted was more in response to Rudy as it seemed like he was maybe saying that he has had plenty of training on mental health/substance abuse to be able to handle the situations himself.    And I bet he can, as evidenced by his citations that he HAS.    But, I would be interested in his opinion of having someone who has made their career helping mental health patients being of assistance (would it, or would it not?) in a vacuum where money is of no concern.    From there, costs (of all kinds, not just financial) could be discussed.

what I'm saying is that we don't ask police to handle a community safety issue like fire. we've created and fund a separate, specialized department for that.  same for EMT/Ambulance services...a funded separate, specialized department.

and while police can be helpful in a fire and many are probably trained in CPR, their role in such emergencies is only support to the specialized department. 

I don't know if a funded separate, specialized "Mental Health" or some-such department is an answer. but if it is, it's meant to take that responsibility from the police, be supported by police who should still have a cursory mental health training and that funding comes from a reallocation of police resources...like the cost of all those trainings and certifications Rudy is going through that put too much responsibility on police. 

 

[UNTLifer]

34 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

for sure. we can go back to the covid threads and find direct evidence from you. 

Knock yourself out.

[El Paso Eagle]

2 hours ago, meanJewGreen said:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/27/white-supremacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report

https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-supremacists-seek-affiliation-law-enforcement-goals-internal/story?id=76309051

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/st-louis-sergeant-says-there-are-white-supremacists-on-police-force/

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-02-17/lapd-other-police-agencies-struggle-with-where-to-draw-the-line-with-political-extremism-in-their-ranks

Sounds like an epidemic to me. 

I'm not anti-police but I think policing needs some serious reforming. We ask cops to do too much, but perhaps the training needs to be different. Not only that, but if you have white supremacists on the force, do you truly have a police force that will serve the public? 

Can not think of a time when shit hit the fan and others were trying to get to safety where the police that were running to harms way stopped and asked the race of the people they were trying to save. A lot of the same people yelling the loudest for defunding and also asking for additional police protection in rough areas have yet to get turned down as far as I know. 

[Hunter Green]

9 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Agreed. The boot comes down the hardest on minorities. Unfortunately, eventually the boot comes for us all.

While all the talk is on Police reform, where does the responsibility for the general public lie? It appears to me the common denominator here is that most of these fatal outcomes are the result of non-compliance and resisting arrest. Not to justify what happened with George Floyd, but he was coherent enough, initially, to go into a grocery store and pass a counterfeit $20 bill. Police are called and when law enforcement is enacted, that's when all hell breaks loose. So where is the responsibility of we, as citizens, to act responsibly and to obey the law and those who's job it is to enforce it? In my judgement, it's a two way street. Be respectful and respect will be shown. Resist and things usually don't go well for all involved.

I have taught my children to when and if they encounter a police officer, to be polite, be respectful and to cooperate with their instructions. If you do that, then chances are good that everyone goes home to their families. However, if they have done something illegal, then man up and face the consequences of your actions. That's how I was raised and that's how I've raised my kids. That philosophy has served me well all my life.

[El Paso Eagle]

10 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

what I'm saying is that we don't ask police to handle a community safety issue like fire. we've created and fund a separate, specialized department for that.  same for EMT/Ambulance services...a funded separate, specialized department.

and while police can be helpful in a fire and many are probably trained in CPR, their role in such emergencies is only support to the specialized department. 

I don't know if a funded separate, specialized "Mental Health" or some-such department is an answer. but if it is, it's meant to take that responsibility from the police, be supported by police who should still have a cursory mental health training and that funding comes from a reallocation of police resources...like the cost of all those trainings and certifications Rudy is going through that put too much responsibility on police. 

 

I hope we can all agree there is a serious need for mental health support in many cases. Just need to understand how we can ask someone to go into a potential life endangering situation with no way to protect themselves. As much as many ask for reform, and let's agree there is some needed, hopefully these same people can agree there are some vey bad people who would have no problem attacking anyone that got near them.

[UNTLifer]

31 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Agreed. The boot comes down the hardest on minorities. Unfortunately, eventually the boot comes for us all.

Does it, or does it come down the hardest on those that commit crimes?

[MGNation92]

12 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Does it, or does it come down the hardest on those that commit crimes?

I'm sure the Uyghurs in China, the Jews in Nazi Germany, the political dissidents in Soviet Russia, black people pre-civil rights act etc etc would like to have a word with you.

Sometimes just existing is the only motivation the government needs to target you

[MeanGreenTexan]

23 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

what I'm saying is that we don't ask police to handle a community safety issue like fire. we've created and fund a separate, specialized department for that.  same for EMT/Ambulance services...a funded separate, specialized department.

and while police can be helpful in a fire and many are probably trained in CPR, their role in such emergencies is only support to the specialized department. 

I don't know if a funded separate, specialized "Mental Health" or some-such department is an answer. but if it is, it's meant to take that responsibility from the police, be supported by police who should still have a cursory mental health training and that funding comes from a reallocation of police resources...like the cost of all those trainings and certifications Rudy is going through that put too much responsibility on police. 

 

This is contradictory though.   Either they have adequate training, or they dont.

Even if they don't, and the training costs are removed from police budget to fund a more specialized mental health "department" (for lack of a better term), you're talking about the cost of a training session VS someone's salary.  I know those trainings are likely expensive, but they don't equate to a specialized person's salary.

Now, again, with a huge PD like Dallas or Fort Worth or Minneapolis, it may work because their budgets for training all of those officers is likely very high.    

But if I'm not mistaken, Rudy is up in a small town in the Panhandle somewhere, right Rudy?    This kind of direct tradeoff (training budget for specialist) would not be able to be funded without additional taxes.

[UNTLifer]

5 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

I'm sure the Uyghurs in China, the Jews in Nazi Germany, the political dissidents in Soviet Russia, black people pre-civil rights act etc etc would like to have a word with you.

Sometimes just existing is the only motivation the government needs to target you

I'm sorry.  I thought we were talking about policing today in the United States?  I must have misunderstood.

Edited April 21, 2021 by UNTLifer

[MeanGreenTexan]

3 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

I'm sure the Uyghurs in China, the Jews in Nazi Germany, the political dissidents in Soviet Russia, black people pre-civil rights act etc etc would like to have a word with you.

Sometimes just existing is the only motivation the government needs to target you

We're approaching tin-foil-hat territory here.

For sure politicians are for the most part just power-hungry people who don't really care about you or me.  That may be a discussion for a different thread.   But do you genuinely believe the U.S. government is out to get you?