*Updated* Kevin Sumlin: Deal (Steal) of the Century

[Side Show Joe]

1 minute ago, El Paso Eagle said:

So a disastrous 9-20 tenure in Arizona is not a reflection of his coaching?  His last 5 years at A&M he was under .500 in conference. Based on your comparison, his best two years at A&M (2012-2013) were with talent from another coach.

I'm as pissed at Seth as most, but I'm not so sure what people are seeing that leads them to think Sumlin is the answer other than the "anyone but Seth" feelings.

I don't see it as a complete refection of his coaching. Even within the bad steak at Arizona, Sumlin managed to upset a #19 Oregon team along the way. When factoring in his success at Texas programs A&M and Houston, yes... I think he is better than Littrell. Plus, I don't think Sumlin is the only answer. I'm sure there are other options out there too. I just know I have no more faith in Littrell to lead our program. 

[El Paso Eagle]

1 minute ago, Side Show Joe said:

I don't see it as a complete refection of his coaching. Even within the bad steak at Arizona, Sumlin managed to upset a #19 Oregon team along the way. When factoring in his success at Texas programs A&M and Houston, yes... I think he is better than Littrell. Plus, I don't think Sumlin is the only answer. I'm sure there are other options out there too. I just know I have no more faith in Littrell to lead our program. 

Don't get me wrong, I would not mind if we moved on from Seth. I would just like to see UNT have a plan on how we move forward.

[TIgreen01]

Hell no to Sumlin.

Someone brought up Kiffin.  He didn’t go from USC to FAU.  He had to take a step back and go be an assistant for a couple years first.  At Ala-freaking-Bama!  If Sumlin does that, then and only then should he be considered.  At this point, hiring a winless coach who has been in a complete free fall ever since Kliff Kingsbury left his side would be the most North Texas hire of all time.  But we did just hire Bowen away from Kansas after touting that we were increasing the budget for an upgrade at DC.  So...

[Pseudo Nym]

I put together a this chart to compare the experience of HC hires at UNT prior to their hire and how their tenure went at UNT as far as record, bowl wins etc. and included Kevin Sumlin to see how he compares to past hires.

I only went as far back as Hayden Fry with it as I would consider his tenure and what he did as far as moving the program forward as an independent (and more) as most impactful to represent the "modern era" if you will.  You can draw your own conclusions but I'd be open to suggestions on what categories to add to the spreadsheet for comparison. 

I've attached as a .png and .pdf - one may be easier to read depending on your browser but may be difficult on mobile due to the layout of the spreadsheet.

UNT HC Exp Prior.pdf

Edited December 30, 2020 by Pseudo Nym
Added sentence on Kevin Sumlin (relevance)

[SilverEagle]

Rod Rust might be considered the first coach of our "modern era", but Hayden Fry is a fine place to start.  The gap in Corkey Nelsons career (71-73) was when he was the HC at John Tyler HS winning a state championship with the help of someone named Earl Campbell. BTW, it was Corkey Nelson who put him at RB. Campbells position before that was LB/DE. Campbell accepted the move to RB, but thought that it would ruin his chances of playing College FB......and eventually pro football. 

[UNTLifer]

3 hours ago, Pseudo Nym said:

I put together a this chart to compare the experience of HC hires at UNT prior to their hire and how their tenure went at UNT as far as record, bowl wins etc. and included Kevin Sumlin to see how he compares to past hires.

I only went as far back as Hayden Fry with it as I would consider his tenure and what he did as far as moving the program forward as an independent (and more) as most impactful to represent the "modern era" if you will.  You can draw your own conclusions but I'd be open to suggestions on what categories to add to the spreadsheet for comparison. 

I've attached as a .png and .pdf - one may be easier to read depending on your browser but may be difficult on mobile due to the layout of the spreadsheet.

UNT HC Exp Prior.pdf 78.52 kB · 3 downloads

Man, you really need a hobby.

[Pseudo Nym]

2 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Man, you really need a hobby.

I'm a UNT Grad (Twice!) - this stuff takes 10 minutes!

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

1 hour ago, Pseudo Nym said:

I'm a UNT Grad (Twice!) - this stuff takes 10 minutes!

I am shocked that Dan Mac was only 58 when he came here. It was portrayed at how OLD he was... and how much experience he had. He seemed 70. Also shocked that Dickey was only 39 - with that bald head and dad jokes. He seemed 60.

[Aquila_Viridis]

NO to Sumlin. We meed someone young and enthusiastic. Most of the positive energy went out of this program with GH.

[UNTLifer]

Let’s be honest, SL is an incredible offensive coach, and his staff has proven to be very good recruiters. All we are missing is a focus on defense.  SL needs a strong DC to take over that side of the ball. 

[Pseudo Nym]

I really like SL, I've loved watching our team compete under him and win under him.  However, five years ago on December 5, 2015, the day he was announced as the HC, the expectation was not to go 4-8 and 4-8 in years four and five.  In year one, 5-8 is understandable, years two and three of 9-5 and 9-4 respectively was outstanding and I think most would agree either met or exceeded expectations.  For me, had Sumlin not become available WITH the financial caveats I started this thread with, I wouldn't have thought about making a move.  I have always supported all of our programs regardless, but I don't believe SL will meet or exceed expectations in year six, next year, I hope I'm wrong, I really do.  It's because of that I think making this move with Sumlin now, gives the program the most qualified hire in program history and financially, with the money that would be available to be reinvested in the AC pool a more qualified/experienced DC for example.  I'd rather make this move now than after next season if things don't go well and we have to compete for a new HC in the open market.  For me, Sumlin check's all the boxes, many that haven't been checked before at the HC position for football at UNT and I believe his hire would be the one that takes the program to the next level, ranked in the Top 25 going into a bowl game!

[xyresic]

2 hours ago, Pseudo Nym said:

I really like SL, I've loved watching our team compete under him and win under him.  However, five years ago on December 5, 2015, the day he was announced as the HC, the expectation was not to go 4-8 and 4-8 in years four and five.  In year one, 5-8 is understandable, years two and three of 9-5 and 9-4 respectively was outstanding and I think most would agree either met or exceeded expectations.  For me, had Sumlin not become available WITH the financial caveats I started this thread with, I wouldn't have thought about making a move.  I have always supported all of our programs regardless, but I don't believe SL will meet or exceed expectations in year six, next year, I hope I'm wrong, I really do.  It's because of that I think making this move with Sumlin now, gives the program the most qualified hire in program history and financially, with the money that would be available to be reinvested in the AC pool a more qualified/experienced DC for example.  I'd rather make this move now than after next season if things don't go well and we have to compete for a new HC in the open market.  For me, Sumlin check's all the boxes, many that haven't been checked before at the HC position for football at UNT and I believe his hire would be the one that takes the program to the next level, ranked in the Top 25 going into a bowl game!

I’m split on if this thread is trolling or just insane.  We don't need a crazy deal to financially engineer more assistant pool money by hiring a retread P5 coach that is on the ropes. Our coach salary spending and budget has been ratcheted up and is now near the top of G5 schools. We just need a DC who can coach & develop the talent we have. 350k in CUSA should be able to get the job done for a great DC.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by xyresic

[Tom McKrackin]

10 minutes ago, xyresic said:

I’m split on if this thread is trolling or just insane.  We don't need a crazy deal to financially engineer more assistant pool money by hiring a retread P5 coach that is on the ropes. Our coach salary spending and budget has been ratcheted up and is now near the top of G5 schools. We just need a DC who can coach & develop the talent we have. 350k in CUSA should be able to get the job done for a great DC.

 

Why is any qualified DC coming here with Seth hanging by a thread?

[El Paso Eagle]

3 minutes ago, Tom McKrackin said:

Why is any qualified DC coming here with Seth hanging by a thread?

Inside shot at Seth's job??

[Pseudo Nym]

24 minutes ago, xyresic said:

I’m split on if this thread is trolling

I'm not trolling, I'm an alumni and have followed this message board since my days at UNT.  I never thought about joining, posting, or commenting as I coach college athletics (Not at UNT, not football and not D1) and would one day like to coach at UNT (dream job!), so it's always been a catch-22 if you will.  I'm passionate about UNT and have literally "CAWWWED" and thrown up the talon across airports and casinos in Vegas when I see someone wearing UNT gear.

The idea for the Sumlin deal came about a few weeks ago when I was looking up information on some Dallas Cowboys contracts (also a fan) and read an article about Jerry and the 'Boys front loading contracts during the uncapped 2010 season.  Then Sumliin was fired, I follow him as through a friend I hung out with him once a few years ago during the offseason, nothing big, haven't seen or talked to him since, but as a young coach he definitely made a positive impression on me and you tend to follow the careers of folks you've met in your respective fields.  Then, reading the threads on here where some were questioning the $1.8mil base salary for SL, the Cowboys front loading, Sumlin's availability and contract details ($7.29mil guaranteed/mitigated), all kind of came together as one thought and I sat on it for a while and wanted to get some feedback on it, as it just kind of kept creeping up in my mind.

The first person I shared the idea with privately thought it was pretty insane, doubted the validity of it so I can get where you're coming from with the insane part.  From my perspective the only way I see Sumlin getting another opportunity at a Power 5 school (assuming he wants another go at it), would be to have a successful run at a Group of 5 school.  He could go the 'Bama Analyst route but I still think that leads to a G5 job before a P5 job for him.  Coaching at UNT gives him the G5 job without going to 'Bama or somewhere else as a Coordinator (again, assuming he wants that) and saves him a few years (at 56 years old, time's ticking).  Also, I think his recruiting background is a great fit at UNT, considering where he's been in the past, I think he'd bring some recruits with him (Power 5 recruits) and I think by virtue of his CUSA and SEC credentials, he retains a lot of current student-athletes.  Then capitalizing on the buzz this would generate, turns the recruiting up another notch, we know the facilities and location are great at UNT, attracting quality assistants and support staff would follow.  I'm of the belief that the next five years looks more promising with Sumlin than it does with SL (again, I hope I'm wrong, I hope that if it's SL or someone else, that the next five years and beyond exceed everyone's expectations!).

Anyway, insane perhaps, I can accept that 😄 but definitely not trolling lol.

[xyresic]

28 minutes ago, Pseudo Nym said:

 

I'm not trolling, I'm an alumni and have followed this message board since my days at UNT.  I never thought about joining, posting, or commenting as I coach college athletics (Not at UNT, not football and not D1) and would one day like to coach at UNT (dream job!), so it's always been a catch-22 if you will.  I'm passionate about UNT and have literally "CAWWWED" and thrown up the talon across airports and casinos in Vegas when I see someone wearing UNT gear.

The idea for the Sumlin deal came about a few weeks ago when I was looking up information on some Dallas Cowboys contracts (also a fan) and read an article about Jerry and the 'Boys front loading contracts during the uncapped 2010 season.  Then Sumliin was fired, I follow him as through a friend I hung out with him once a few years ago during the offseason, nothing big, haven't seen or talked to him since, but as a young coach he definitely made a positive impression on me and you tend to follow the careers of folks you've met in your respective fields.  Then, reading the threads on here where some were questioning the $1.8mil base salary for SL, the Cowboys front loading, Sumlin's availability and contract details ($7.29mil guaranteed/mitigated), all kind of came together as one thought and I sat on it for a while and wanted to get some feedback on it, as it just kind of kept creeping up in my mind.

The first person I shared the idea with privately thought it was pretty insane, doubted the validity of it so I can get where you're coming from with the insane part.  From my perspective the only way I see Sumlin getting another opportunity at a Power 5 school (assuming he wants another go at it), would be to have a successful run at a Group of 5 school.  He could go the 'Bama Analyst route but I still think that leads to a G5 job before a P5 job for him.  Coaching at UNT gives him the G5 job without going to 'Bama or somewhere else as a Coordinator (again, assuming he wants that) and saves him a few years (at 56 years old, time's ticking).  Also, I think his recruiting background is a great fit at UNT, considering where he's been in the past, I think he'd bring some recruits with him (Power 5 recruits) and I think by virtue of his CUSA and SEC credentials, he retains a lot of current student-athletes.  Then capitalizing on the buzz this would generate, turns the recruiting up another notch, we know the facilities and location are great at UNT, attracting quality assistants and support staff would follow.  I'm of the belief that the next five years looks more promising with Sumlin than it does with SL (again, I hope I'm wrong, I hope that if it's SL or someone else, that the next five years and beyond exceed everyone's expectations!).

Anyway, insane perhaps, I can accept that 😄 but definitely not trolling lol.

No disrespect intended to an alumni, mainly just poking fun and I appreciate your response. My point was that we have a coach who is recruiting well for a G5 (for the past three cycles) and he made his mark as an offensive mind. You have correctly pointed out that Sumlin's strengths are these exact things, but he comes with lots of question marks.

I am not saying Seth is a sure thing at all and I think we all expected more at this juncture, but if we are going to upset the apple cart we want to be certain in three years we aren't buying out another coach. You are also ignoring things like buyouts typically need to be paid up front (as an example I think Sumlin's was due in 30 days) so to save a small amount per year we could be shelling out millions up front which would actually nullify your financial argument.

In any event your thesis is that Sumlin is a splash hire and then we can hire a better DC. My counter is we can just hire a better DC. The prior point that this may be more difficult with Seth's struggles might have some merit. Long story short I think your idea of a splash hire is good, but I'd prefer it be for a DC that needs a second chance and has been a stud before rather than Sumlin.

Edited December 31, 2020 by xyresic

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, Tom McKrackin said:

Why is any qualified DC coming here with Seth hanging by a thread?

Because a competent DC turns this program around and saves Seth’s job. 

[UNTLifer]

@Pseudo NymI actually thought you were @PlummMeanGreenunder a new name based on the length of your posts. 😂.   Then you lost me at “CAWWWED”. 
 

Seriously, I want a competent DC to bring back the type of defense that we were known for having for years. Hard hitting and aggressive. I also want SL to succeed because I think he is a man of strong character and his success is our success. 

[greenminer]

1 hour ago, Tom McKrackin said:

Why is any qualified DC coming here with Seth hanging by a thread?

Seth sits in this weird place where 1) he might not survive past 2021 but, 2) his job is secure for 2021.

...so I don't consider Seth as "hanging by a thread."

1) Good salary. 2) Program is invested. 3) Recruiting is up.

...I think anyone interested in this job knows that if defense can be figured out, it's a damn good place.

[Pseudo Nym]

Appreciate it @xyresic (and for sure no offense taken) and @UNTLifer!!

More importantly though: Does no one "CAWWWW" anymore?  That was a thing when I was in school!!! I was on campus for a day this summer but before that it's been a solid four or five years or so but I remember throwing up the Talon and "CAWWWING" when I was there haha!

Well, if you see a random person throwing up the talon and yelling "CAAWWWW" at you in an airport or elsewhere because you're wearing UNT gear, it's a safe bet that it's probably me lol! 😆😆

[UNTLifer]

I was never a fan of the Caw as I associate that call with a crow and not an Eagle but that is just me. 
 

Thanks for taking it as intended and welcome to the board. Love having new members. Can you share what sport you coach and where?

Edited December 31, 2020 by UNTLifer

[greenminer]

51 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

I was never a fan of the Caw as I associate that call with a crow and not an Eagle but that is just me. 

Not just you lol

[Got5onIt]

I’m in on Sumlin, but it ain’t happenin’. SL is here through 2021 and beyond. 

[Pseudo Nym]

@UNTLifer DM sent.

[wardly]

On 12/27/2020 at 2:24 PM, Harry said:

Sumlin did some very nice things while at Houston.  He also recruited Jonny Foutball and had 2 Fuve star QBs while at A&M.  The guy is a fabulous recruiter.  Just needs to be in Texas.  It’s hard to recruit to zona.

Why would we be interested in a coach fired from his last two jobs? Because like a used car its a good deal? His career is going/has gone south.