Who Can Play On Defense?

[MeanGreenZen]

And I do remember when we played DEFENSE in Denton... Brandon Kennedy, Adrian Awasom, Cody Spencer, Taylor Casey, Chris Hurd, Jonas Buckles, Craig Jones, Don Mcgee, Markeith Knowlton... 

We don’t have a single player on defense the caliber of any of those guys. Can you imagine if we could have put that early 2000’s defense with the Mason Fine/Graham Harrell offense? We’d have had a Coastal Carolina-like season. 

[El Paso Eagle]

19 minutes ago, MeanGreenZen said:

And I do remember when we played DEFENSE in Denton... Brandon Kennedy, Adrian Awasom, Cody Spencer, Taylor Casey, Chris Hurd, Jonas Buckles, Craig Jones, Don Mcgee, Markeith Knowlton... 

We don’t have a single player on defense the caliber of any of those guys. Can you imagine if we could have put that early 2000’s defense with the Mason Fine/Graham Harrell offense? We’d have had a Coastal Carolina-like season. 

I think Novil would have fit in with those guys

[BillySee58]

32 minutes ago, MeanGreenZen said:

We need P5 transfers, but how many of them have ever become impact players for us? 

Marcus Trice for sure. 
Pegram kinda. 
Hedlund? (But he’s a kicker)

That linebacker from Oregon was ok.

Does Aune count? I don’t think he was ever on a Fall roster for Arkansas or TCU. 

Seth’s inability to land these blue chip DFW bouncebacks has been pretty frustrating. 

Where were we on Ja’quinden Jackson? He signs with Utah to sit behind Charlie Brewer?

The UNT defense has the same problem as the Texas Rangers. They get decent players, they just can’t develop them. 

He is definitely embracing it more than he did early on. We had essentially 3 P5 transfers playing on defense (one by way of JUCO in Mccrae), plus we’re bringing in another in Logan Wilson coming in at DB. Offensively we brought in Gilmore at QB and Jacob Farrell who just started at LT as soon as he became eligible, which implies he’s our guy there going forward.

Plus, most of our skill guys offensively had P5 offers, which that’s essentially the caliber transfer we’re looking at. Guys who chose one of their 2-4 P5 offers but it didn’t work out, so I don’t think the “not enough transfers” thing is all that big an issue. Development, like you said, is the issue here.

[greenminer]

3 hours ago, emmitt01 said:

I watched Spring ball in the Dickey era.  It was competitive and those who weren’t tough were exposed.  

That must have been incredible.  Those guys loved to hit.

[wardly]

19 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

We’re obviously going to look to the transfer market to shore things up, so where does the help really need to be? First of all, I think we’re going to see a 3-3-5 where we have 3 traditional d-linemen and a Jack LB. One of our defensive end signees, Chris Wright, was classified as a linebacker so that tells me they see him fitting into that Jack LB spot when he gets here, so I think that’s what we see.

As for who can play, on the d-line, if Novil leaves we have a lot of options but not a lot of proven play. The young guys should be improved but I think we need at least one, maybe two guys who can fill one of these three spots. I would trust the Murphy twins at the Jack spot, even though they aren’t perfect they have pass rush skills and should be improved in the run game with an offseason.

At LB, with two traditional second level linebackers, we have two in KD Davis and Tyreke Davis who can play but just haven’t proven to be impact players (a common theme throughout our entire defense). Jordan Brown did not play well yesterday but he had made some splash plays and shown ability as a true freshman, and Nixon should be at least a solid backup. We have some okay options but no one who is a clear plus player, although hopefully KD Davis gets there since it looked like he was heading there.

Then in the secondary we had so many bodies and actually had some decent performances against the pass the last three games. I feel really good in Upton Stout, and feel like he can make an impact either at outside corner or in that slot corner/safety spot Cam Johnson played. I also think Gaddie can play, and we have a lot of candidates after that. Between Jordan Rucker (Purdue), John Davis (Texas Tech), and Logan Wilson (K-State) we have a lot of P5 transfer talent already here.

Overall we need to look for help at all levels but I’d look hard for:

- a good 3-tech DE who is built sort of like Pickett and Rausaw (6’3” 275) but has quickness and experience. Let them develop behind him. 

- a traditional DE to compete with Mccrae. I think Mccrae can be good and JUCOs usually take a season to acclimate, but we need another option as an every-down DE.

- a linebacker who can push the Davis twins and has more size. Again, they aren’t bad options but we’re looking to take a step forward, not stay the same

- a well-rounded safety who we can trust against the run and in coverage. We rely on Makyle Sanders for this and too often it hasn’t panned out. I like Jaxon Gibbs as a strong safety type, and I like Gaddie as a coverage safety, but they would both really benefit from a safety they could each lean on.

Otherwise, we have guys who should not be this bad on paper. We need some to step up and be playmakers, but otherwise it’s on the coaches to develop and get them in position. We have signed solid recruits, we have landed transfers, we need to make sure we have our best on the field and get the most out of them. We aren’t right now.

I certainly will defer to your judgement regarding our talent. However I am having a hard time believing that our terrible defensive performance the past two years with two different D.C.'s is all coaching and not player related.

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, wardly said:

I certainly will defer to your judgement regarding our talent. However I am having a hard time believing that our terrible defensive performance the past two years with two different D.C.'s is all coaching and not player related.

Same basic system.  I think it is a result of the mentality instilled in the player's by the coaches.  I also believe that "same basic system" sucks.

[BillySee58]

1 hour ago, wardly said:

I certainly will defer to your judgement regarding our talent. However I am having a hard time believing that our terrible defensive performance the past two years with two different D.C.'s is all coaching and not player related.

Oh it is definitely player related to a degree as well. But my point is when the on-field issue is player related, there are still reasons to point the finger at the coaching staff. I’ll try not to be nice and not name names, but we had multiple guys who were starters in 2019, performed at very subpar levels that year, and were still starters in 2020, once again performing at subpar levels all the way through this last Bowl Game. 

Why were these guys not replaced by the younger, potentially more talented players? If the answer is “those guys weren’t ready or better,” then why didn’t we go out and get guys who were ready and better this offseason when we knew those would be our starters again? Or why weren’t we better developing the young guys to step up and take those spots?

We also have a lot of guys who were very highly recruited out of high school. I get that being highly recruited out of high school doesn’t mean you’re going to have a successful college career, but we have a lot of players in each position group to choose from who had big offer lists out of high school, yet our defense looks like an FCS defense. By my count we had 6 guys in our secondary this season who had offers from P5 schools when we got them. We can’t get 2 or 3 of those guys to be solid G5 players? Seems like a development issue or putting players in poor position to succeed.

[817Fan]

51 minutes ago, BillySee58 said:

We also have a lot of guys who were very highly recruited out of high school. I get that being highly recruited out of high school doesn’t mean you’re going to have a successful college career, but we have a lot of players in each position group to choose from who had big offer lists out of high school, yet our defense looks like an FCS defense. By my count we had 6 guys in our secondary this season who had offers from P5 schools when we got them. We can’t get 2 or 3 of those guys to be solid G5 players? Seems like a development issue or putting players in poor position to succeed.

OR... They just aren't good enough. Outside of Novil, that side of the ball can't play. The sample size is large enough.

[meangreen11]

19 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I’d take McCrae off the field & start one of the twins on the weak side.

Slide KD back to the other LB spot and put Gibbs back at S.

Otherwise, yeah, I’m really starting to buy in on a 4-2-5.

I agree with this.  McCrae was a big bust.  Go with the younger twins as they are more talented.

[BillySee58]

20 minutes ago, 817Fan said:

OR... They just aren't good enough. Outside of Novil, that side of the ball can't play. The sample size is large enough.

Again, then why didn’t we go out and get more transfer help this past offseason? Why were the ones we did get in here largely ineffective?

We’re bringing in a bunch of guys who P5 coaches thought could play at the P5 level, and our defense is playing at an FCS level. Sounds like a development issue to me. Coaches don’t get to just sit there and say “welp, none of my guys can play. Not my fault we’re the 3rd worst defense in the nation.”

[817Fan]

7 minutes ago, BillySee58 said:

Again, then why didn’t we go out and get more transfer help this past offseason? Why were the ones we did get in here largely ineffective?

We’re bringing in a bunch of guys who P5 coaches thought could play at the P5 level, and our defense is playing at an FCS level. Sounds like a development issue to me. Coaches don’t get to just sit there and say “welp, none of my guys can play. Not my fault we’re the 3rd worst defense in the nation.”

As to why they didn't get transfer help? I don't know. Maybe they tried, maybe they thought they had the horses in the barn. My observation is that this staff isn't committed to Defense. Are they committed to passing numbers & touchdown passes? Absolutely. That's the identity they sell. I don't know what they sell on D. 

I'm not saying there's not a developmental component in the reason they're historically terrible, but when I see other defenses we play, I have a hard time saying "Our starter is better than theirs."

[Wag Tag]

Usually you go to a 3 man front because you can’t recruit defensive tackles. If we can’t recruit them then let’s develop them. That looks like the strategy of the 21 class with 5 commits.

[BillySee58]

1 hour ago, 817Fan said:

As to why they didn't get transfer help? I don't know. Maybe they tried, maybe they thought they had the horses in the barn. My observation is that this staff isn't committed to Defense. Are they committed to passing numbers & touchdown passes? Absolutely. That's the identity they sell. I don't know what they sell on D. 

So, again, coaching issue. Not on the players dictate identity.

1 hour ago, 817Fan said:

I'm not saying there's not a developmental component in the reason they're historically terrible, but when I see other defenses we play, I have a hard time saying "Our starter is better than theirs."

I don’t completely disagree, but also at the beginning of that App State game it didn’t look like a huge talent disparity. They weren’t doing whatever they wanted to us. We were stopping them and it didn’t look like luck or unforced errors. Then the long runs started where we just looked completely out of position. There was just no one in position to make a play on the second level and it looked like there were no third level defenders at all. You miss tackles, you get juked out, you get manhandled, that’s definitely a talent issue. And there was some of that. But all season it just looked like we were continually out of position, with no one able to provide resistance.

I agree you can’t look at the team and say our starters are better. But our recruits certainly were and the coaches need to make sure it starts looking like they’re at least on equal footing against CUSA foes.

[BillySee58]

27 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

Usually you go to a 3 man front because you can’t recruit defensive tackles. If we can’t recruit them then let’s develop them. That looks like the strategy of the 21 class with 5 commits.

You still play 2 defensive tackles in a 3-man front though. One’s a nose and one’s a 3-Tech that is called an end. That’s basically what the situation was in our 4-3 we ran under Skladany.

Edited December 23, 2020 by BillySee58

[BillySee58]

2 hours ago, meangreen11 said:

I agree with this.  McCrae was a big bust.  Go with the younger twins as they are more talented.

I wouldn’t give up on Mccrae so easily. I think we should definitely bring in a traditional DE who can push him and maybe beat him out, but it usually takes transfers a season to start settling in. Even Trice wasn’t a star in that first season. I think Mccrae will be better, but how much is a legitimate question because he’s got a ways to go to be considered a good CUSA level player.

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, BillySee58 said:

I wouldn’t give up on Mccrae so easily. I think we should definitely bring in a traditional DE who can push him and maybe beat him out, but it usually takes transfers a season to start settling in. Even Trice wasn’t a star in that first season. I think Mccrae will be better, but how much is a legitimate question because he’s got a ways to go to be considered a good CUSA level player.

He has to get stronger and learn to play with leverage. He is tall and got stood up and pushed around way to much this year. 

[BillySee58]

44 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

He has to get stronger and learn to play with leverage. He is tall and got stood up and pushed around way to much this year. 

Definitely. Also went to the bullrush far too much and it didn’t work too well against guys 50+ pounds heavier. I remember when he committed he had some impressive comments about technique and film study so I think he’s teachable. I’m hopeful, but I would also like to see a transfer added who can legitimately push him or beat him out. Dotson and Jimmy Walker behind him haven’t given much indication that they are legitimate alternatives.

[GrandGreen]

I think the defense's major problem is coaching.  I think there is a lot more defensive talent available than the stats indicate.   

Littrell's reluctance to replace older players is a huge issue.   As bad as this defense was why not find out what the freshmen can do.  Littrell relies heavily on the DC, but I think his overall tendency to value experience over talent carried over to the defense. 

It will be interesting to see if NT really brings in a bunch of defensive transfers.  It is going to be tough for NT to convince any coveted recruit to join the current defensive nightmare. 

[Wag Tag]

10 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

I think the defense's major problem is coaching.  I think there is a lot more defensive talent available than the stats indicate.   

Littrell's reluctance to replace older players is a huge issue.   As bad as this defense was why not find out what the freshmen can do.  Littrell relies heavily on the DC, but I think his overall tendency to value experience over talent carried over to the defense. 

It will be interesting to see if NT really brings in a bunch of defensive transfers.  It is going to be tough for NT to convince any coveted recruit to join the current defensive nightmare. 

They have been able to do it with high school recruits (2021) I expect the same on transfers. Defensive line and a qb. GMG