Cancel Culture Strikes Again

[El Paso Eagle]

Protecting us from Arnold 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8593873/Kindergarten-Cop-CANCELED-compared-Birth-Nation.html

 

 

[UNTLifer]

This is just laughable.  Better pull the reruns of All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Sanford and Son, etc...  

[Cr1028]

49 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Protecting us from Arnold 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8593873/Kindergarten-Cop-CANCELED-compared-Birth-Nation.html

I haven’t seen that movie in ages. I may need to watch it again at my advanced age to see what they are taking about.

[Coffee and TV]

150k easily preventable deaths and conservatives are still worried about cancel culture. 

[Green P1]

[THOR]

10 hours ago, Coffee and TV said:

150k easily preventable deaths and conservatives are still worried about cancel culture. 

so how would you have kept all 150k alive that have died frorm this virus?  

 

 

[TheTastyGreek]

26 minutes ago, THOR said:

so how would you have kept all 150k alive that have died frorm this virus?  

Daily screenings of Kindergarten Cop with mandatory, stand-up only national anthem preambles, and door prizes of Washington football jerseys and confederate flags. 

If that didn't work, I'd go hourly and double down on the door prizes. Whatever it took, as long as it didn't require admitting what I'd already been doing wasn't working. 

[THOR]

19 minutes ago, TheTastyGreek said:

Daily screenings of Kindergarten Cop with mandatory, stand-up only national anthem preambles, and door prizes of Washington football jerseys and confederate flags. 

If that didn't work, I'd go hourly and double down on the door prizes. Whatever it took, as long as it didn't require admitting what I'd already been doing wasn't working. 

Wow...your comedy is amazing. /sarcasm...thanks for helping answer the question...so basically, you nor anyone else could have prevented 150k deaths from this virus.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

12 minutes ago, THOR said:

...you nor anyone else could have prevented 150k deaths from this virus.

With all due respect, he likely already knows you feel this way, so any legitimate answer would be met with a slew red arrows.

But we can't go back in time and stop the deaths, but we can stop playing the games that led to the deaths - China virus talk, casting doubt on the medical experts, distraction tactics with police forces and rogue mayors, saying we will open at all costs, making states compete with one another for private resources, insider profiteering, pumping up medicines to boost Trump's ego, "contact tracing is a plot by the government to track you" , casting doubt on the CDC, pressuring CDC to change recommendations and the general "it is what it is" attitude.

We need a national strategy - period. This hodge-podge of state tactics for a national pandemic is not working. 

But for real - if you don't find some of the above accurate criticism, then there is nothing we can do.

But alas, we have 50 pages of covid talk on that one thread already. 🤣

[CMJ]

We currently have the 8th worst deaths per capita in the world.  While I suspect that we'd have a high number of deaths under most circumstances, a decent percentage of the 160K (which it is currently, not 150K) was probably preventable.

 

Right now we're averaging about 1100 deaths day.  That's decidedly not great.

[Cr1028]

@SteaminWillieBeamin @CMJ Would you both agree that, independent of any failures of leadership here in the US, if China had done a better job of keeping the virus confined to the greater Wuhan area, it could have prevented 700k deaths worldwide?

[CMJ]

3 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

@SteaminWillieBeamin @CMJ Would you both agree that, independent of any failures of leadership here in the US, if China had done a better job of keeping the virus confined to the greater Wuhan area, it could have prevented 700k deaths worldwide?

Undoubtedly.  

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

24 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

@SteaminWillieBeamin @CMJ Would you both agree that, independent of any failures of leadership here in the US, if China had done a better job of keeping the virus confined to the greater Wuhan area, it could have prevented 700k deaths worldwide?

Absolutely. 

[Hunter Green]

Good lord, we have consensus!

[Cr1028]

28 minutes ago, CMJ said:

Undoubtedly.  

 

7 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Absolutely. 

I appreciate you two for acknowledging that.

[CMJ]

Well sure...look at SARS.  It wasn't as easy to transmit, but still....early and effective action was taken which is why it was quickly gotten under control.  That could have been incredibly bad if it had gotten out - its case fatality rate was 11%

[97and03]

15 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

 

I appreciate you two for acknowledging that.

I think most can agree that the PRC bungled their initial response. Suppression of truth or criticism is always going to be their initial reaction, as it is in any authoritarian society.

Going back to @THOR's question about how the outcome here could have been different, I point you to the above statement.  Our own leaders met this coming crisis in a similar fashion.  Countries that contained this effectively did so early and through decisive measures with a combination of mask wearing, quarantines, internal and external travel restrictions, widespread testing, contact tracing, and information campaigns.  It is impossible to take one country's example and use it as a template for the US or another country, but let me take a stab at it in general.

First, from the very start our top leadership should have clearly messaged that this was a national security and public health threat (yes national security - not all national security threats are from or solved by a military).  Instead we were given denials and vague promises that it all was well. It wasn't. It still isn't and it has taken until the end of July for the leadership to finally admit that. It was only in the last couple of weeks that the President signaled it was important to wear a mask despite rules in many cities and states that require them.  Instead we got tweets encouraging resistance to mask and quarantine measures. 

We also would have benefited from a unified response from the National Security Council directorate for global health and security and bio-defense but unfortunately it was disbanded in 2018.  Not having a QB to run the offense (well in this case defense) slowed our response.  

Our mask policy was also kind of a disaster.  In many Asian countries, mask wearing is pretty normal for people with illnesses.  We not only don't have that culture, but due to our supply chain weaknesses we didn't have the extra stockpiles to push for early adoption of mask wearing. Simply put, there was an impossible decision to make: push for ordinary citizens to wear masks or end up with medical workers without masks.  In some cases, medical workers still ended up without masks, but had Americans gone out and bought masks like they did toilet paper, we would have had maskless doctors all over the country.  Most of our masks are made in China or other countries where they needed the supply themselves. Had we ramped up domestic production of personal protective equipment (PPE) early on, we might have been able to push masks earlier and saved more lives.  We had the legal mechanism to do so, but it didn't happen.  

Testing was another disaster. We rejected a WHO offer for tests and decided to make our own. That was fumbled and ended up with bad tests. Also, FDA rules initially prevented state and commercial labs from developing their own coronavirus diagnostic tests, even if they could develop coronavirus PCR primers on their own. So we ended up behind the curve in testing by MILLIONS compared to other countries. If you don't test enough, you can't contain the virus. You have to know where the outbreaks are happening in order to set the right policies for that location. 

Which leads me to contact tracing.  We just didn't do it sufficiently.  I know of many people who flew into the United States without any medical screening or registration for contact tracing.  No one even asked them from which countries they had traveled.  If someone ends up sick and they just flew in from overseas, you would want to know everyone they contacted including their flight and then test all of them.  But we didn't have enough tests, so it was a moot point in some ways.  In contrast, where I live all flights were canceled in March and then anyone who came in on special repatriation flights was tested and put in quarantine. After two negative tests several days apart, then they could go home to self-isolate for two weeks. If they tested positive they completed their quarantine in a special hospital.  In the US, you showed your passport and  then went to Chilis with your friends for margs and fajitas.

A lot of this comes down to leadership. At the national, state, and local level many politicians were more concerned with the next election than with a real public health response to a national level threat. We had the experience of Wuhan and Italy to see what a poor response looked like. And we had South Korea and Singapore to see what a good response looked like.  As I said initially, we could not have just laid down a Korean template here and fixed everything, but we certainly could have tried to pull lessons learned from around the world to come up with a response early enough to limit the damage.  We did not. 

 

Thomas, I hope this answers your question, at least in part. 

TL;DR version: decisive action and clear messaging, ramp up domestic PPE supply chain, use existing tests instead of wait to mess up our own, better contact tracing and arrivals control, and masks earlier. 

 

 

[THOR]

7 hours ago, 97and03 said:

I think most can agree that the PRC bungled their initial response. Suppression of truth or criticism is always going to be their initial reaction, as it is in any authoritarian society.

Going back to @THOR's question about how the outcome here could have been different, I point you to the above statement.  Our own leaders met this coming crisis in a similar fashion.  Countries that contained this effectively did so early and through decisive measures with a combination of mask wearing, quarantines, internal and external travel restrictions, widespread testing, contact tracing, and information campaigns.  It is impossible to take one country's example and use it as a template for the US or another country, but let me take a stab at it in general.

First, from the very start our top leadership should have clearly messaged that this was a national security and public health threat (yes national security - not all national security threats are from or solved by a military).  Instead we were given denials and vague promises that it all was well. It wasn't. It still isn't and it has taken until the end of July for the leadership to finally admit that. It was only in the last couple of weeks that the President signaled it was important to wear a mask despite rules in many cities and states that require them.  Instead we got tweets encouraging resistance to mask and quarantine measures. 

We also would have benefited from a unified response from the National Security Council directorate for global health and security and bio-defense but unfortunately it was disbanded in 2018.  Not having a QB to run the offense (well in this case defense) slowed our response.  

Our mask policy was also kind of a disaster.  In many Asian countries, mask wearing is pretty normal for people with illnesses.  We not only don't have that culture, but due to our supply chain weaknesses we didn't have the extra stockpiles to push for early adoption of mask wearing. Simply put, there was an impossible decision to make: push for ordinary citizens to wear masks or end up with medical workers without masks.  In some cases, medical workers still ended up without masks, but had Americans gone out and bought masks like they did toilet paper, we would have had maskless doctors all over the country.  Most of our masks are made in China or other countries where they needed the supply themselves. Had we ramped up domestic production of personal protective equipment (PPE) early on, we might have been able to push masks earlier and saved more lives.  We had the legal mechanism to do so, but it didn't happen.  

Testing was another disaster. We rejected a WHO offer for tests and decided to make our own. That was fumbled and ended up with bad tests. Also, FDA rules initially prevented state and commercial labs from developing their own coronavirus diagnostic tests, even if they could develop coronavirus PCR primers on their own. So we ended up behind the curve in testing by MILLIONS compared to other countries. If you don't test enough, you can't contain the virus. You have to know where the outbreaks are happening in order to set the right policies for that location. 

Which leads me to contact tracing.  We just didn't do it sufficiently.  I know of many people who flew into the United States without any medical screening or registration for contact tracing.  No one even asked them from which countries they had traveled.  If someone ends up sick and they just flew in from overseas, you would want to know everyone they contacted including their flight and then test all of them.  But we didn't have enough tests, so it was a moot point in some ways.  In contrast, where I live all flights were canceled in March and then anyone who came in on special repatriation flights was tested and put in quarantine. After two negative tests several days apart, then they could go home to self-isolate for two weeks. If they tested positive they completed their quarantine in a special hospital.  In the US, you showed your passport and  then went to Chilis with your friends for margs and fajitas.

A lot of this comes down to leadership. At the national, state, and local level many politicians were more concerned with the next election than with a real public health response to a national level threat. We had the experience of Wuhan and Italy to see what a poor response looked like. And we had South Korea and Singapore to see what a good response looked like.  As I said initially, we could not have just laid down a Korean template here and fixed everything, but we certainly could have tried to pull lessons learned from around the world to come up with a response early enough to limit the damage.  We did not. 

 

Thomas, I hope this answers your question, at least in part. 

TL;DR version: decisive action and clear messaging, ramp up domestic PPE supply chain, use existing tests instead of wait to mess up our own, better contact tracing and arrivals control, and masks earlier. 

 

 

i totally get that the government messed up from the beginning, not arguing that point at all.  it's the statement of "150k easily preventable deaths" that is made when there is no way in hell anyone could have easily prevented those 150k deaths.  that's it...quit making statements that you know aren't true just because you don't like how someone handled something.

 

everything you mentioned would have been great if it was put in place, but that still wouldn't have easily prevented 150k deaths...some of those deaths, sure, but not all 150k.  i know you didn't state that, just using it due to someone posting it.

[97and03]

2 hours ago, THOR said:

i totally get that the government messed up from the beginning, not arguing that point at all.  it's the statement of "150k easily preventable deaths" that is made when there is no way in hell anyone could have easily prevented those 150k deaths.  that's it...quit making statements that you know aren't true just because you don't like how someone handled something.

 

everything you mentioned would have been great if it was put in place, but that still wouldn't have easily prevented 150k deaths...some of those deaths, sure, but not all 150k.  i know you didn't state that, just using it due to someone posting it.

Thomas, you asked how they could have been prevented and I gave you my best analysis of how. We definitely would have experienced deaths had all I mentioned occurred but much fewer. Tens of thousands less, maybe well over 100k less. Easily.

We know this by looking at the data. Many countries that had the virus early on took decisive measure and largely stopped it or slowed it dramatically. New Zealand, Thailand, and Singapore had a couple dozen deaths. South Korea around 300, Australia 255. Japan and Nigeria around 1000. These counties did what they had to do.

But all of those countries are smaller than the US, so probably more informative to look at per capita deaths rather than absolute numbers. In those terms we are 8th worst in the world at 483 per million. In the top 20 you see countries of all sizes and demographics. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Bottom line is that with proper measures - many of them as simple as good information and messaging - we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

[THOR]

30 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

Thomas, you asked how they could have been prevented and I gave you my best analysis of how. We definitely would have experienced deaths had all I mentioned occurred but much fewer. Tens of thousands less, maybe well over 100k less. Easily.

We know this by looking at the data. Many countries that had the virus early on took decisive measure and largely stopped it or slowed it dramatically. New Zealand, Thailand, and Singapore had a couple dozen deaths. South Korea around 300, Australia 255. Japan and Nigeria around 1000. These counties did what they had to do.

But all of those countries are smaller than the US, so probably more informative to look at per capita deaths rather than absolute numbers. In those terms we are 8th worst in the world at 483 per million. In the top 20 you see countries of all sizes and demographics. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Bottom line is that with proper measures - many of them as simple as good information and messaging - we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

and you gave me a great answer.  i'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying.  i know we could have cut down on the deaths with some common sense from the beginning, that's not what my issue.

 

my issue goes back to coffee and tea saying all 150k deaths were easily preventable, when they weren't.  deaths were going to happen.  deaths could have been lower with implementation of things you mentioned.  wish it would have happened.

 

i'm not a fan of hyperbolic statements like coffee and tea made when we know all these deaths weren't preventable....many, maybe most, but not all, like he said. 

[97and03]

1 hour ago, THOR said:

and you gave me a great answer.  i'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying.  i know we could have cut down on the deaths with some common sense from the beginning, that's not what my issue.

 

my issue goes back to coffee and tea saying all 150k deaths were easily preventable, when they weren't.  deaths were going to happen.  deaths could have been lower with implementation of things you mentioned.  wish it would have happened.

 

i'm not a fan of hyperbolic statements like coffee and tea made when we know all these deaths weren't preventable....many, maybe most, but not all, like he said. 

Ok that is fair. I understand hyperbole isn’t helpful in this case. And I missed the last line of your post and I apologize. 
I know you haven’t been all-in on some of these measures like masks but I appreciate that you are asking questions and listening - even if you don’t agree in the end. In the long term, for ourselves personally and our country, listening is pretty healthy. 

[THOR]

1 minute ago, 97and03 said:

Ok that is fair. I understand hyperbole isn’t helpful in this case. And I missed the last line of your post and I apologize. 
I know you haven’t been all-in on some of these measures like masks but I appreciate that you are asking questions and listening - even if you don’t agree in the end. In the long term, for ourselves personally and our country, listening is pretty healthy. 

no worries man and you're right, i wasn't at the beginning...understanding it and doing what i can now. 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

37 minutes ago, THOR said:

no worries man and you're right, i wasn't at the beginning...understanding it and doing what i can now. 

Do you think had the leadership from the top down been serious with their words (while sorting out action) -- you would have bought in earlier? 

 

[THOR]

22 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Do you think had the leadership from the top down been serious with their words (while sorting out action) -- you would have bought in earlier? 

 

probably not...at the beginning, those getting it and dying were NY old folks home and other really old people with health issues.  i never once felt concern for my family or myself from covid

[THOR]

21 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

With all due respect, he likely already knows you feel this way, so any legitimate answer would be met with a slew red arrows.

But we can't go back in time and stop the deaths, but we can stop playing the games that led to the deaths - China virus talk, casting doubt on the medical experts, distraction tactics with police forces and rogue mayors, saying we will open at all costs, making states compete with one another for private resources, insider profiteering, pumping up medicines to boost Trump's ego, "contact tracing is a plot by the government to track you" , casting doubt on the CDC, pressuring CDC to change recommendations and the general "it is what it is" attitude.

We need a national strategy - period. This hodge-podge of state tactics for a national pandemic is not working. 

But for real - if you don't find some of the above accurate criticism, then there is nothing we can do.

But alas, we have 50 pages of covid talk on that one thread already. 🤣

it doesn't matter how i feel.  another poster said that 150k deaths were easily preventable and i asked how.  other guy comes in with stupid comedy instead of answering a question that wasn't even directed at him.   all those deaths were not easily preventable...some of them, many of them, most of them...sure, maybe,  but not all and that's what coffee and tv said...that's what i was asking...how he would have prevented them.  

 

you're right, we can't go back and stop all those deaths, nor could we have prevented all of them.  i was replying to the hyperbolic statement from someone that thinks the government screwed up and he could have prevented all those deaths easily.

 

it has nothing to do with private resources, insider profiteering, trump's ego...it has to do with that guys statement.  that's what i wanted an answer too

Edited August 7, 2020 by THOR