University of Arizona working to protect international students (and athletes) from new ICE rule

[meangreen11]

As if the coronavirus crisis wasn’t enough, college sports has another obstacle in its return to operations.

To combat the spread of the virus, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) announced Monday that international students (and presumably athletes) whose universities switched to online classes for the fall semester will have to leave the United States or risk violating their visa status.

But there is one key exemption (via the ICE website “Nonimmigrant F-1 students attending schools adopting a hybrid model—that is, a mixture of online and in person classes—will be allowed to take more than one class or three credit hours online. These schools must certify to SEVP, through the Form I-20, ‘Certificate of Eligibility for Nonimmigrant Student Status,’ certifying that the program is not entirely online, that the student is not taking an entirely online course load this semester, and that the student is taking the minimum number of online classes required to make normal progress in their degree program.”

The University of Arizona announced in late April that it is planning to resume in-person classes in the fall, but UA president Robert C. Robbins recently backtracked on that, saying reopening campus amid the surge of coronavirus cases in Arizona wouldn’t be sensible.

read more: https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2020/7/7/21315759/arizona-wildcats-international-student-athletes-return-campus-ice-policy-basketball-recruits

Edited July 10, 2020 by meangreen11

[El Paso Eagle]

This is a tough situation, however abuse of student visa is a very large problem. I hope they are able to come up with a solution.

[97and03]

13 hours ago, El Paso Eagle said:

This is a tough situation, however abuse of student visa is a very large problem. I hope they are able to come up with a solution.

Yes there are problems with student visas. I have issued them. It is a tiny percentage that try to commit fraud and most are caught by State Department officers. Pro tip: DHS does little to protect you or stop illegal immigration. 

US universities rely on international students. They pay a LOT of money in general to attend our schools. Some NT program could fail without international students. 
Anyone here proud of our tennis team? It will cease to exist. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by 97and03

[El Paso Eagle]

3 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

Yes there are problems with student visas. I have issued them. It is a tiny percentage that try to commit fraud and most are caught by State Department officers. Pro tip: DHS does almost nothing to protect you or stop illegal immigration. 

US universities rely on international students. They pay a LOT of money in general to attend our schools. Some NT program could fail without international students. 
Anyone here proud of our tennis team? It will cease to exist. 

That is why I hope they come up with a compromise. Talking with several DHS agents, we can hopefully agree to disagree on the number of people who use the visa to gain access.

[97and03]

3 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

That is why I hope they come up with a compromise. Talking with several DHS agents, we can hopefully agree to disagree on the number of people who use the visa to gain access.

For the record I am very concerned about how the PRC uses students to spy or steal tech. That’s a real thing. But most people just want a good education to either stay in the US and contribute or to return home and make it better there. I prefer the latter, but understand that our country often needs the former. 

[UNTexas]

29 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

Yes there are problems with student visas. I have issued them. It is a tiny percentage that try to commit fraud and most are caught by State Department officers. Pro tip: DHS does almost nothing to protect you or stop illegal immigration. 

US universities rely on international students. They pay a LOT of money in general to attend our schools. Some NT program could fail without international students. 
Anyone here proud of our tennis team? It will cease to exist. 

State Department doesn't enforce much on the visa overstay side. Diplomatic Security is small and mostly overseas. DHS actually does more of the enforcement domestically and its rampant. Not trying to be argumentative or enter into a debate but to offer a pro tip that DHS does little to curb illegal immigration nor committed to public safety is sadly not accurate at all. The general public is massively uninformed as to what federal agencies actually do and what actually goes on that they will never see or hear about. 

Hopefully this unfortunate short term issue with students is quickly resolved and not punitive. I'd hate to see a kid honestly going to school get hurt by this mess we are all in that is 2020.

[97and03]

1 hour ago, UNTexas said:

State Department doesn't enforce much on the visa overstay side. Diplomatic Security is small and mostly overseas. DHS actually does more of the enforcement domestically and its rampant. Not trying to be argumentative or enter into a debate but to offer a pro tip that DHS does little to curb illegal immigration nor committed to public safety is sadly not accurate at all. The general public is massively uninformed as to what federal agencies actually do and what actually goes on that they will never see or hear about. 

Hopefully this unfortunate short term issue with students is quickly resolved and not punitive. I'd hate to see a kid honestly going to school get hurt by this mess we are all in that is 2020.

Are you really trying to argue with me on this? 

[UNTexas]

1 hour ago, 97and03 said:

Are you really trying to argue with me on this? 

Not at all. Just disagreeing from experience with part of what you said. I too don't want kids to get sent home either.

Edited July 10, 2020 by UNTexas

[97and03]

Just now, UNTexas said:

Not at all. Just disagreeing from experience. 

Well maybe we should take this discussion offline but holy hell my experience has been 200% the opposite.

[meangreen11]

 

[eulessismore]

It's probably some of our best programs (music, chemistry, etc) could get hurt the most, because they attract students who want the best education for the money in those fields. I am sure this could cause some deep pain to many good programs at UNT. On the other hand, I think UNT and other universities should do as much as they can to have an innovative combination of online and classroom instruction, perhaps in a way to nuance this guidance (i.e., have some classroom instruction for a mostly online course, with perhaps a fourth of the class enrollment in classroom instruction one day a week, thus allowing both social distance and physical presence for all in a class).

[MeanGreenTeeth]

So, I guess I don't fully understand... I agree that it seems really heavy-handed to send international students back due to just one semester of online only school (what a headache if in-person school starts back in the spring), but it does seem reasonable that if this goes on for multiple more semesters (which seems likely) at some point the whole justification for them being here on a student visa doesn't exist as they can do their classes in their home country.  What am I missing here, if anything?

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

I think your drive for the immediate "right" ignores what makes it not so "right."

The students are not doing anything on their own accord to violate whatever terms of their student visas. They are attending the school - just not on the campus. This is not their choice. They are victims in the pandemic too. 

Most international students are not the high flying white whale students. Their families have helped them to come to the US, where the cost is living is a lot higher, to better themselves and hopefully their families. If they go back home, I doubt they will afford to come back so easily. 

As noted above, by multiple people, these international students fund large and important aspects of the universities. Without their ridiculously high priced tuitions - ALL the student body will suffer. 

The local economies where these students live will also suffer. You think the international student is going to pay to break their leases? Or will just move out and leave it all there. I bet that international students account for 25% of the student apartment rentals. Imagine is that just went bust overnight. How would that impact the community as a whole? While I was in school, one of my friends lost his student visa and was moving back to Hong Kong. I didn't know that - but he student to all over a sudden buy a lot of drinks at the bars, pay for dinners, etc etc .. all on his credit card. When he left, he just didn't pay any of it - since credit is not international. He just walked out on his 9 months left on his lease. 

Most universities (as noted above) have a lot of international sports - basketball has a ton, golf, tennis, swimming, football.. 

If you send people away and expect them to come back - don't you risk opening the doors to more covid exposure?

So the local economy will suffer, personal rental businesses will suffer, the SCHOOL as a whole will suffer, the athletics programs will suffer, the students and their families will suffer, international travel will be limited for them to return, etc, etc. 

So - for what? Because ICE has some line items about attending class in person?

Don't cut off the nose to spite the face. Don't chase bad money with good money. Don't let your money get mad. Don't be an asshole.

However you want to state it - there really is no other reason than just being punitive against universities (as Trump threatens them all the time) and international students (he really only like Norwegian students - duh). 

Edited July 11, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[MeanGreenTeeth]

52 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

The students are not doing anything on their own accord to violate whatever terms of their student visas. They are attending the school - just not on the campus. This is not their choice. They are victims in the pandemic too. 

I don't disagree with any of that. I agree it's a heavy handed position for the government to take for the time being.   I'm truly not advocating a position as I don't know the full public policy reasons for student visas. It just seems odd to me that we'd let people stay long term on student visas if they never go to campus.  If the primary purpose is to let the students get a good education, then it seems pointless as they could attend class from their bedroom in their home country just as well as some apartment in Denton.  If the point is to get international money flowing to our universities and local communities, then I guess it makes sense to try to keep them here.  So is the thinking that this is a swipe at China (as I'm assuming a large bulk of international students are Chinese)? 

Edited July 11, 2020 by MeanGreenTeeth

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Of course it is a swipe at China. 

Given this logic of 'they can do it from their home country' line of thinking -- Universities already offer online degrees. We should just stop offering student visas and force them to do it all online. But what would that buy *us*? 

A big portion of educating international students is to get them to stay in the country and add to our economy. Pure and simple. That is the point. Once they graduate - they get a visa to work - if they pan out - the company sponsors their greencard effort. Eventually you have another American who is putting in toward the GDP. 

If you send them out of the country to get educated - you lose the whole point of educating them IN the USA. 

But our administration wants to scoreboard and talk big and make these types of grand gestures without much consideration. 

[97and03]

But if they are already here living and studying, why force them to get on a plane  to go home to study remotely? That’s rent money paid here and sales taxes collected every month. A lot of extra expense to the student to just pack up and leave, break leases, etc.