Abbott is making mistake opening schools during fall

[CaribbeanGreen]

On 7/16/2020 at 10:47 AM, THOR said:

out of approximately 1100 students at my school (dentonisd), only 60 have signed up for online learning for this year.  of course, not every family has replied and my school is labeled title 1 (basically poor) so it could be that the parents don't have the resources to keep them home/monitored, their kids are bad and they don't want them home, or they don't even know that they have to give us an answer in about a month.

 

everything is fluid...no one has all the answers and it changes almost daily.  kids will have to commit to a full grading period's worth of home learning, but kids that are at school may "change" due to circumstances.

 

fine arts....no idea how they are going to do those classes.

 

i don't know the numbers of other schools, but this seems to tell me that most at my school want to be at school and learning in person, but who knows.  

 

no idea on what would happen if a kid gets sick or a teacher....no idea on student requirements while in class/hallways...pretty much no idea how school is gonna work other than we're gonna teach the kids as best we can.

 

edit:  read documents on movement/collaboration/school stuff...basic commonn sense stuff about spacing/masks(certain grade levels and situations), doors propped open so no extra touching, etc

Those numbers are shocking to me. Are you positive about that? In my district, we’re at 44% opting for virtual, with the lowest SES Title 1 campus at 36%. Neighboring districts range from 42-54% virtual, and there are some campuses clocking in at over 70% virtual. I have friends in Dallas ISD, and no one has seen anything near a rate that low, sub 10%. We’re gonna see a near half and half mix as long as this goes on. 

[THOR]

18 minutes ago, CaribbeanGreen said:

Those numbers are shocking to me. Are you positive about that? In my district, we’re at 44% opting for virtual, with the lowest SES Title 1 campus at 36%. Neighboring districts range from 42-54% virtual, and there are some campuses clocking in at over 70% virtual. I have friends in Dallas ISD, and no one has seen anything near a rate that low, sub 10%. We’re gonna see a near half and half mix as long as this goes on. 

100%....we had a call to discuss the beginning of the school year last thursday.  this is just my middle school....school is title 1

 

again, folks may not know about having to decide, may not have email, may not care (which i really do believe is a decent portion)

 

will be interestiong to see how it changes as we get closer. i was shocked as well for the low numbers, but i'm all in for in person school and have no problem sending my own kids to school on day 1...and they want it as well.

Edited July 20, 2020 by THOR

[Tom McKrackin]

23 minutes ago, CaribbeanGreen said:

Those numbers are shocking to me. Are you positive about that? In my district, we’re at 44% opting for virtual, with the lowest SES Title 1 campus at 36%. Neighboring districts range from 42-54% virtual, and there are some campuses clocking in at over 70% virtual. I have friends in Dallas ISD, and no one has seen anything near a rate that low, sub 10%. We’re gonna see a near half and half mix as long as this goes on. 

Those numbers are off the charts.  Where do you live, Hawaii?

[CaribbeanGreen]

3 hours ago, Tom McKrackin said:

Those numbers are off the charts.  Where do you live, Hawaii?

All three in Collin County. All the data is out there on Twitter. 

[97and03]

[THOR]

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/schools-childcare/reopening-schools.html

 

a long article from the cdc on why kids should be in school this fall.  

[untcampbell]

On 7/20/2020 at 11:29 PM, 97and03 said:

New to this political argument. And I sincerely apologize for the offending that is about to occur, but bear with me as I attempt civil debate. With all the caveats that even one death is too many, we need to at least “consider science,“ always evolving as it may be. 

It appears, from my limited reading on the subject, that knowing how many got the disease is not as relevant as knowing how many suffered from the disease. Did this source include the number of deaths in that age group? Did it break out the number of asymptomatic in this age group? Any comparison to the numbers that got the flu (even with a vaccine), numbers that suffered, numbers that passed away during a comparable 3.5 month period of a flu season?

By my understanding, the flu doesn’t affect adults as much as children. Why not close schools during every flu season “for the children?”

This CDC paper, https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e1.htm , says that amongst all CV-19 deaths, less than 0.1% were children under 18. Admittedly, this data only goes through May 18. But the % may be lower now as we have more treatment options today than in the ancient days of May. It is possible more children died during the same period from NOT being in school, from abuse, random neighborhood violence, drug overdose, lack of air conditioning in the house and other things kids do when they don’t have anything else to do. 

 

GMG

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

3 hours ago, THOR said:

a long article from the cdc on why kids should be in school this fall.  

But they are not saying kids SHOULD be in school explicitly. They are saying that when community spread is undercontrol... then sure... open up the schools. It is truly common sense and not anything new. What is new is people pointing to the studies that show low school spread in communities that have low community spread.... and trying to point to their high community spread town and saying - "see!? It worked in Germany!"  When we are nowhere near Germany's community spread level.

"Conclusion
Schools are an important part of the infrastructure of our communities, as they provide safe, supportive learning environments for students, employ teachers and other staff, and enable parents, guardians, and caregivers to work.  Schools also provide critical services that help meet the needs of children and families, especially those who are disadvantaged, through supporting the development of social and emotional skills, creating a safe environment for learning, identifying and addressing neglect and abuse, fulfilling nutritional needs, and facilitating physical activity.  School closure disrupts the delivery of in-person instruction and critical services to children and families, which has negative individual and societal ramifications.  The best available evidence from countries that have opened schools indicates that COVID-19 poses low risks to school-aged children, at least in areas with low community transmission, and suggests that children are unlikely to be major drivers of the spread of the virus.  Reopening schools creates opportunity to invest in the education, well-being, and future of one of America’s greatest assets—our children—while taking every precaution to protect students, teachers, staff and all their families.
"

This is the part that gets overlooked in the "open  at all costs" arguments.  This long article is saying stuff we all agree on, kids are fed, comforted, taught and safe in schools (when there is no COVID in the community). Great, we agree with the CDC. 

 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

1 hour ago, untcampbell said:

New to this political argument...

It shouldn't be political. 😕

Children do have rougher time with flu, but there is a vaccine, it is not as contagious or as deadly. Flu shots are given for free throughout every community. It is a big drive to keep children safe. YET - School districts are shut down EVERY year because of the flu. 

Obviously, COVID has no vaccine. We can't even get people to agree to wear masks (which is proven to be the best spread deterrent).

The statistics on children is not a complete picture - not at all. 
1. Children are more likely to be asymptomatic - therefore not getting tested and not getting 'counted'
2. Children have been less exposed. Schools have been closed. Camps are closed. It is recommended that only one person from a family go out to the stores - and not bring the children. Movie theaters, parks, gyms, all closed. 
3. Tests (lab capacity) are a limited commodity - therefore we don't test everyone.
4. The studies about school kids and school spread is only in communities where there is little spread already. It is not apples to apples. But people are taking the conclusion of the study, without taking into consideration the input.
 

Edited July 24, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[97and03]

And then - like all diseases - the kids spread to adults. 

[untcampbell]

2 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

It shouldn't be political. 😕

Children do have rougher time with flu, but there is a vaccine, it is not as contagious or as deadly. Flu shots are given for free throughout every community. It is a big drive to keep children safe. YET - School districts are shut down EVERY year because of the flu. 

Obviously, COVID has no vaccine. We can't even get people to agree to wear masks (which is proven to be the best spread deterrent).

The statistics on children is not a complete picture - not at all. 
1. Children are more likely to be asymptomatic - therefore not getting tested and not getting 'counted'
2. Children have been less exposed. Schools have been closed. Camps are closed. It is recommended that only one person from a family go out to the stores - and not bring the children. Movie theaters, parks, gyms, all closed. 
3. Tests (lab capacity) are a limited commodity - therefore we don't test everyone.
4. The studies about school kids and school spread is only in communities where there is little spread already. It is not apples to apples. But people are taking the conclusion of the study, without taking into consideration the input.
 

I appreciate the reasoned response.

And you are right. It shouldn’t be a political discussion but it is. I argue most humans do what is in their and their family’s best interest. We measure the risks and the benefits of everything we do every day. As example, I go to work even though there is a similar risk of getting killed on the way to work as their is for children to die of CV-19. 

The science is all over the place and changes daily. Dr. Fauci called this nothing to worry about in late January, and then told us masks weren’t useful (so that they could save them for health professionals). I’ve been on vacation for the past two weeks so it may have changed, but the WHO provides lots of reasons for asymptomatic humans NOT to wear a mask and advises authorities to be clear in the advantages and disadvantages of mask wearing.

I agree the statistics for children are off, as they are for all age groups. But we are pretty sure of the number of deaths. In the 3.5 months of the data cited previously, there were 16 deaths for patients under 18. That is without a vaccine. In the 2019-2020 flu season (about 7 months) there were between 54 and 185 flu deaths for patients in the same category, even though a vaccine is widely available.

There are a handful of data sets, Australia for instance, that appear to show transmission from child to adult is relatively rare. Yes, children have been sheltered (with immunity challenges that come with that), so where did all of the 3821 children in Dallas County get exposed? Maybe we should shelter kids from parents too.

Again, kids are more at risk of death from the flu. What is it in the risk/benefit analysis that allows kids to go to school during flu season?

Here is one solution: kids whose parents approve go to school. Teachers that decide they can teach in the school get extra pay. Offset the pay increase by reducing pay for teachers that teach via Zoom. Use increased school funding about to be given from the government to pay for Education majors to proctor and keep the kids on task learning from the Zoom teacher in her/his teacher-less classroom.

And when a child gets sick or is documented with COVID, don’t panic and don’t read the 3-inch headlines that seem to intentionally politicize everything. Keep calm, carry on and let’s you and I debate without the politics.

 

GMG

[UNTBill]

5 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

It shouldn't be political. 😕

Children do have rougher time with flu, but there is a vaccine, it is not as contagious or as deadly. Flu shots are given for free throughout every community. It is a big drive to keep children safe. YET - School districts are shut down EVERY year because of the flu. 

Obviously, COVID has no vaccine. We can't even get people to agree to wear masks (which is proven to be the best spread deterrent).

The statistics on children is not a complete picture - not at all. 
1. Children are more likely to be asymptomatic - therefore not getting tested and not getting 'counted'
2. Children have been less exposed. Schools have been closed. Camps are closed. It is recommended that only one person from a family go out to the stores - and not bring the children. Movie theaters, parks, gyms, all closed. 
3. Tests (lab capacity) are a limited commodity - therefore we don't test everyone.
4. The studies about school kids and school spread is only in communities where there is little spread already. It is not apples to apples. But people are taking the conclusion of the study, without taking into consideration the input.
 

I am sorry sir, but there is no vaccine for the flu. There are flu shots, but no vaccine.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

54 minutes ago, UNTBill said:

I am sorry sir, but there is no vaccine for the flu. There are flu shots, but no vaccine.

You are wrong. 100% wrong in every fashion. Please. Ask. A. Doctor.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

5 hours ago, untcampbell said:

There are a handful of data sets, Australia for instance, that appear to show transmission from child to adult is relatively rare. Yes, children have been sheltered (with immunity challenges that come with that), so where did all of the 3821 children in Dallas County get exposed? Maybe we should shelter kids from parents too.

A five year old died of covid today in Dallas. Two kids died in Denver two days ago. 

But again, people are bringing up Australian studies, when they do not have community spread. And when they do (like they just had 400 cases) they shut down travel between states and shut down schools. We do not. We won't. So they are studying an environment where covid is not spreading. Period. So it's no shock that schools aren't spreading. 

Your comment about kids immunity not getting exposed by being sheltered... There is no proof of lasting immunity after infection. In fact it, there is proof of the second time you catch it, the symptoms are worse. So your comment on immunity challenges is just hearsay or positive thinking. There is no common cold immunity (well, there is, but it lasts 7 days) and that is what covid is pointing toward. Other strains of covid are more cold-like btw.

Where did the 3821 kids in Dallas get it? Daycare. Summer camp. Church camp. It's that simple. We opened back up before we had two straight weeks of drops and test positive rates below 5%.

Shelter kids from parents? I know that was just a cute question you threw in there - but no don't shelter kids from parents - don't send kids into a large gatherings while community spread is still happening/rising.

I don't know why you won't see that we are not Australia, Germany or France. 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Please. Please. Show me WHO lately saying to not wear a mask in a spreading community. I'm wanting to learn.

You can't say science changes daily, then hold on to Fauci saying not to wear a mask (6months ago) as proof that scientist and doctors don't know shit. Fauci was going on WHO data when they thought it was not an aerosol spread. Also, they recommended people to not wear/buy masks because PPE was in such severe shortage. That is not a reason to keep spreading false information now or to distrust experts. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[untcampbell]

Our debate is transitioning. My apologies for throwing in the ludicrous to illustrate the directions these discussions have taken longitudinally. Here is a snippet from the latest WHO guidance on masks, June 5 or 6. It says masks are relevant but gives advantages and disadvantages to both for people that are outwardly healthy. Clearly, it suggests masks are best but provides practical guidance on why they may be not useful. I clearly see the benefits and wear a mask when I can’t social distance. 

Potential benefits/advantages
COVID-19
    The likely advantages of the use of masks by healthy people in the general public include:
• reduced potential exposure risk from infected persons
before they develop symptoms;
• reduced potential stigmatization of individuals wearing masks to prevent infecting others (source control) or of people caring for COVID-19 patients in non-clinical settings;(70)
• making people feel they can play a role in contributing to stopping spread of the virus;

• reminding people to be compliant with other measures (e.g., hand hygiene, not touching nose and mouth). However, this can also have the reverse effect (see below);
• potential social and economic benefits. Amidst the global shortage of surgical masks and PPE, encouraging the public to create their own fabric masks may promote individual enterprise and community integration. Moreover, the production of non-medical masks may offer a source of income for those able to manufacture masks within their communities. Fabric masks can also be a form of cultural expression, encouraging public acceptance of protection measures in general. The safe re-use of fabric masks will also reduce costs and waste and contribute to sustainability.
Potential harms/disadvantages
The likely disadvantages of the use of mask by healthy people in the general public include:
• potential increased risk of self-contamination due to the manipulation of a face mask and subsequently touching eyes with contaminated hands;(48, 49)
• potential self-contamination that can occur if non- medical masks are not changed when wet or soiled. This can create favourable conditions for microorganism to amplify;
• potential headache and/or breathing difficulties, depending on type of mask used;
• potential development of facial skin lesions, irritant dermatitis or worsening acne, when used frequently for long hours;(50)
• difficulty with communicating clearly;
• potential discomfort;(41, 51)
• a false sense of security, leading to potentially lower
adherence to other critical preventive measures such as
physical distancing and hand hygiene;
• poor compliance with mask wearing, in particular by
young children;
• waste management issues; improper mask disposal
leading to increased litter in public places, risk of
contamination to street cleaners and environment hazard;
• difficulty communicating for deaf persons who rely on
lip reading;
• disadvantages for or difficulty wearing them, especially
for children, developmentally challenged persons, those with mental illness, elderly persons with cognitive impairment, those with asthma or chronic respiratory or breathing problems, those who have had facial trauma or recent oral maxillofacial surgery, and those living in hot and humid environments.
If masks are recommended for the general public, the decision-maker should:
• clearly communicate the purpose of wearing a mask,
where, when, how and what type of mask should be worn. Explain what wearing a mask may achieve and what it will not achieve, and communicate clearly that this is one part of a package of measures along with hand hygiene, physical distancing and other measures that are all necessary and all reinforce each other;
• inform/train people on when and how to use masks safely (see mask management and maintenance sections), i.e. put on, wear, remove, clean and dispose;
• consider the feasibility of use, supply/access issues, social and psychological acceptance (of both wearing and not wearing different types of masks in different contexts);
• continue gathering scientific data and evidence on the effectiveness of mask use (including different types and makes as well as other face covers such as scarves) in non-health care settings;
• evaluate the impact (positive, neutral or negative) of using masks in the general population (including behavioral and social sciences).
WHO encourages countries and community adopting policies on masks use in the general public to conduct good quality research to assess the effectiveness of this intervention to prevent and control transmission.

 

GMG

[THOR]

https://texasscorecard.com/local/prosper-schools-to-open-in-person-classes-in-august/

 

prosper had about 70% of students choosing person teaching...they are opening up on time.  a very low economically disadvantaged district, so that may have nothing to do with sending your kids to school or not.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

5 hours ago, untcampbell said:

Clearly, it suggests masks are best but provides practical guidance on why they may be not useful. 

Yet people read between the lines and will say that the WHO advices not to wear masks. But that is clearly not what they are saying. If you are mentally ill, you might have a problem with it, if you have trouble hearing and rely on lip reading to guide you, it may in irritate you so skin if you eczema, etc. It doesn't point to the ineffectiveness of masks, not that is how I keep hearing the verbiage used.

..and particular the part about 'may infect yourself by adjusting masks' is rich, because if you are actively around covid and it is in the air, you will catch it without the mask. Therefore, that line I saying to use it properly, but NOT to bypass its use.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Outwardly, Prosper seems to be low spread. I wonder if they are community testing? Perhaps they meet the criteria for positive rates and can open in person.. that would be great. I don't know Prosper hospital numbers... I know nothing about Prosper.

But I won't find any of that information from the teaparty EmpowerTexan AstroTurf publication... Masquerading as a news organization. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[MeanGreenTexan]

The gigantic elephant in the room is that these numbers are greatly affected by people practicing social distancing & wearing masks.  I realize not everyone is, but these numbers would be WAY higher if  people were just living life as normal.

Remember Italy early on?   Their cases were through the roof, like, the worst in the world.  They traced it back to packed stadiums at a bunch of Serie A games when other sports leagues across the world were shutting down. 
 

We haven’t had the chance to go to sporting events or concerts or other huge gatherings like we do during flu season.  The numbers would be SO MUCH WORSE if no changes were made to our daily lives.  
 

The fact that several hospitals across the nation are opening Covid overflows & requesting extra ventilators (even with all of these safety precautions in place) simply DOES NOT equate this with the flu.   I wish people would stop bringing that up. People need to stop citing life-as-usual flu numbers against these heavily-influenced Covid numbers.  It’s comparing apples & hand grenades.

[UNTBill]

15 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

You are wrong. 100% wrong in every fashion. Please. Ask. A. Doctor.

If I am wrong, please explain the need for annual flu shots.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Just a little Google-fu and the answer is out there. Everywhere.

Definition of vaccine:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm

Explanation why Flu vaccines are seasonal:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/in-depth/flu-shots/art-20048000

"Why do I need to get vaccinated every year?
Because flu viruses evolve so quickly, last year's vaccine may not protect you from this year's viruses. New flu vaccines are released every year to keep up with rapidly adapting flu viruses.

When you get vaccinated, your immune system produces antibodies to protect you from the viruses included in the vaccine. But antibody levels may decline over time — another reason to get a flu shot every year."

Explanation of flu strains and variations and why they are seasonal: 

https://www.sinobiological.com/research/virus/influenza-hemagglutinin-subtypes

"There are 16 different types of HA and 9 different types of NA, therefore, there are potentially 144 different subtypes of influenza A viruses. Among them, two subtypes of influenza A, H1N1 and H3N2, most commonly infect humans"

So. You should be able to see that flu shot is the means for administering the vaccine. Though you can use a nasal must too. Still a vaccine.

[THOR]

my school is not representative of the district.  denton has about 60% wanting online/distance learning, as of now.  

[THOR]

6 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Outwardly, Prosper seems to be low spread. I wonder if they are community testing? Perhaps they meet the criteria for positive rates and can open in person.. that would be great. I don't know Prosper hospital numbers... I know nothing about Prosper.

But I won't find any of that information from the teaparty EmpowerTexan AstroTurf publication... Masquerading as a news organization. 

honestly, i have no idea what you are talking about here.  i assume, which i know is dangerous, this means you didn't like the website i got information from, so you won't believe it.  am i correct with that assumption?

 

then you post 3 links from the cdc, mayoclinic, and sinobilogical....i assume, again dangerous, that you believe everything from those 3 sites?

 

seriously trying to understand why someone may only believe certain things from certain websites.

 

that makes me think that those people only believe things that confirm/go along with their beliefs...close minded people.

 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

20 minutes ago, THOR said:

Then you post 3 links from the cdc, mayoclinic, and sinobilogical....i assume, again dangerous, that you believe everything from those 3 sites?

 

If you think peer reviewed scientists and world renowned medical organizations  that make NO attempts to hide their identity are the same trustworthy category as a Tea Party political organization (EmpowerTexans) and be hides behind news adjacent websites -- I genuinely feel bad for you. 

If you didn't sniff out "Texas scorecard" as not a "real" news outlet and more a press release agent for some other cause - again - that's crazy. They called it the "Chinese coronavirus" FFS!

You seem to pride yourself on seeking out other news sources, but you are only quoting very right wing sites. I don't like reading sites that aren't being honest with who they are.

As for "believing" what is on Texas Scorecard, I have no reason to doubt them reporting that Prosper is going back to school. I can verify that elsewhere. But if it were a "real" news article it would include some testing data, covid related news, hospital data, etc. That's my expectations for a news source.

Edited July 25, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin