Denton Confederate soldiers monument being removed

[Coach Andy Mac]

 

[97and03]

[Censored by Laurie]

surrendered almost as easily as Lee

[GrandGreen]

1 hour ago, Censored by Laurie said:

surrendered almost as easily as Lee

Well since there were over 750,000 deaths in the Civil War after 4 years of war, I would hate to contemplate what you consider hard.  

[wardly]

Wonder what that number was as a percentage of population.

[LongJim]

11 minutes ago, wardly said:

Wonder what that number was as a percentage of population.

2%.  

[97and03]

Can someone explain the rationale for keeping such statues?

[Censored by Laurie]

11 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Well since there were over 750,000 deaths in the Civil War after 4 years of war, I would hate to contemplate what you consider hard.  

Is that counting everyone as a whole person? 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Censored by Laurie

[Quoner]

5 hours ago, 97and03 said:

Can someone explain the rationale for keeping such statues?

Imagine being pissed Derek Thompson is in the Hall of Fame but mad this statue came down. Participation trophy culture can't even find homeostasis anymore...

[CMJ]

6 hours ago, 97and03 said:

Can someone explain the rationale for keeping such statues?

Note: I agree taking down ones for Lee, Davis, etc since they were leaders of the rebellion.

 

Ones put up for common soldiers are a bit tougher of a call (for me).  Despite what's often said, even Germany has monuments for regular soldiers from WWII (many are repurposed WWI and even Franco-Prussian War memorials, but not all of them are), so regular troops are memorialized overseas, even if their cause was unjust.

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/memorials.htm

 

And I certainly don't agree with taking down ones for people like US Grant, George Washington, or Francis Scott Key.

[UNTLifer]

My question is why do we allow people to deface, vandalize or tear down monuments they don't agree with?  There is a right way and a wrong way to do things and the means in which many of these statues and monuments are being treated is criminal.

The Confederate Monument in Denton is neither here nor there for me.  I never paid it much attention, but I can see where it would be hurtful to some.  This movement, or these protests that are leading to the removal of many or these monuments, is now targeting statues memoralizing abolitionist, Lincoln, and others that had nothing to do with slavery or the marginalization of a certain race.  These are just people tearing things up for the sake of being destructive.  Why don't we put the removal of said monuments to a vote of all the people instead of letting a rowdy minority tear things up?

[GrandGreen]

5 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

Is that counting everyone as a whole person? 

I assume you think you have a point there, but I have no idea what it is.

The 3/5 person clause for the counting of slaves in the constitution was enacted to restrict the power of Southern States by reducing their representation pre Civil War.   

As shameful as that was, it obviously had nothing to do with counting deaths that did include slaves.  Of course you know that, but why let history get in the way of a good one liner.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Censored by Laurie]

16 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

why let history get in the way of a good one liner.   

: checks his UNT history degree and unfinished masters work on slave insurrections and violent abolitionism :

right?!? exactly.

 

[ColoradoEagle]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Why don't we put the removal of said monuments to a vote of all the people instead of letting a rowdy minority tear things up?

Quote

I never paid it much attention, but I can see where it would be hurtful to some.

Answered your own question.

Regarding Lincoln, pretty sure that's just a small contingent in Madison, WI who wants that done and they're very alone on that one.

[eulessismore]

When I moved from Wichita Falls to Denton to attend North Texas back in 1973 I remember being shocked to see that statue on the grounds of the Denton County Courthouse, never having been aware of any "Confederate Statues" in Wichita Falls, and instead being accustomed to the World War 1 statue "Spirit of the American Doughboy" on the grounds of the Wichita Falls Memorial Auditorium:

https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM7GQE_The_Spirit_of_the_American_Doughboy_Wichita_Falls_TX

I suppose the "shocked" part was due to having been raised by a Bible believing mother who interpreted the Exodus story in the Old Testament as a testimony against the enslavement or state mandated segregation of any race or nation. She told me once how great a sin those institutions were, and that we would eventually "pay a great price" for them. I have no doubt in the truth of what she said.

However, I now realize that, although apparently not a "statue", there is a Confederate monument in Wichita Falls, which is now the subject of a petition for removal (and according to the Wichita Falls Times and Record News site, which cannot be linked to at this time, a counter petition). Here's a link to the local TV station feature about said removal petition.

https://www.newschannel6now.com/2020/06/15/wf-resident-starts-petition-remove-confederate-monument/

Honestly, I'll never cry about the "Confederate Statue removals", as  such things have been moved around at different times anyway, and it strikes me as odd to have memorials to the former enemies of a nation displayed in public places within the territory of the victorious nation, especially with a near universal condemnation of the obvious cause of the defeated enemy, preservation of slavery.

If there is concern about the loss of "history" associated with these statues, why not simply start a process of moving towards removal from their places of pride and placement within museums or other locations which might provide plaques with explanations or other contextual material. I mean, the one taken down in Richmond was apparently within the right-of-way of a major boulevard.

And yes, we do need to go away from these radical rightists and leftist  viewpoints and try to at least understand what happened during the periods being presumably memorialized and the periods when many of these monuments were placed. An example, is the linked content dealing with the typical "Doughboy" statue, explaining its depiction of a "strong and healthy" returning WW1 soldier as a way of providing a counter narrative to the tragedy of deaths from the War and subsequent 1918 flu epidemic.  

https://www.history.com/news/why-were-americans-who-served-in-world-war-i-called-doughboys

And I would actually hate to see monuments to those who fought to keep our country free removed; just don't see the confederates as having fought for that freedom cause. However, I do think we shouldn't be quick to condemn some who were white and leaders back in those days who may have been constrained by the incredibly convoluted legal machinery put in place to maintain "the peculiar institution". For example, there is one story of Sam Houston having bought a young black man to save him from a mob, and Houston later described himself as always having been opposed to slavery, and was certainly removed as Texas governor as anti secession.

[CMJ]

Note: The Spirit of the American Doughboy was a mass produced statue by E. M. Viquesney, but there were many, many other memorials to The Great War.  It's actually probably the most memorialized war in the nation's history, even though most of them are hidden in plain sight.

 

I found like thirty of them in Los Angeles alone.  Everything from monuments, to libraries, to parks, bridges, to the LA Memorial Coliseum.

Edited June 26, 2020 by CMJ

[UNTLifer]

3 hours ago, ColoradoEagle said:

Answered your own question.

 

How did I answer my own question?  If it were put to a vote it wouldn't matter to me since I don't live in Denton anymore.

[ColoradoEagle]

31 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

How did I answer my own question?  If it were put to a vote it wouldn't matter to me since I don't live in Denton anymore.

I'll say it another way. Was there a vote to add the monument in the first place?

[97and03]

[MCMLXXX]

9 hours ago, 97and03 said:

 

[MCMLXXX]

Couldn’t edit above post. I personally don’t care about confederate monuments. When I first saw the monument on the square at age 11 I wondered why there would be a monument to the confederacy. However, I own a piece of the wall you are picturing and a portion still stands so that history won’t be forgotten. 
 I thought you posted before that you have a History degree. You want the history of the Berlin Wall erased? Seriously? 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by MCMLXXX

[97and03]

40 minutes ago, MCMLXXX said:

Couldn’t edit above post. I personally don’t care about confederate monuments. When I first saw the monument on the square at age 11 I wondered why there would be a monument to the confederacy. However, I own a piece of the wall you are picturing and a portion still stands so that history won’t be forgotten. 
 I thought you posted before that you have a History degree. You want the history of the Berlin Wall erased? Seriously? 

 

It was sarcasm. Civilizations have torn down their past but we still know about it. Invading armies razed cities, statues of Lenin and Stalin toppled - hell we still remember Atlantis and it probably never existed. Confederate monuments are not about heritage. Most were put up during the Jim Crowe era to remind Blacks of “their place” in the South.
And for the sake of the argument let’s accept the idea that they are about Southern heritage for one second. That heritage isn’t worth honoring because that heritage was firmly based on human bondage and racism. 

Tear them down and renamed the Army bases. They were traitors. 

[GrandGreen]

I was born in the West, so no real connection to the Civil War other than I now live in a former slave state.    

However, calling people traitors that served in the Confederacy is so currently socially correct.  

The majority of the rebels were poor and never came close to owning slaves.  The officer class was another story because most were relatively wealthy. 

The Union invaded the South not the other way around.  People were defending their homes more than slavery.

There is nothing more heinous than slavery.  Slavery ended over 150 years ago.  Slavery didn't cause discrimination, it was just part of it. 

Things have improved vastly, but there is still a long way to go to insure everyone gets equal opportunities and treatment. 

If removing confederate statues makes things even slightly better, than remove them.  However, those statues were not erected to scare blacks, but more to honor heroes of the South.   I doubt anyone in the South thought a statue would intimidate anyone, they used more brutal and obscene methods to accomplish that. 

 

[Censored by Laurie]

8 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

However, those statues were not erected to scare blacks, but more to honor heroes of the South.  

 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

8 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

However, those statues were not erected to scare blacks, but more to honor heroes of the South

You are so wrong, it's amazing. Please, do a little tiny research before you have these beliefs.