UT Athletes demand removal of racist song

[Aldo]

On 6/13/2020 at 4:42 PM, THOR said:

didn't have a problem then, why now?  maybe this is the white guy in me, but if something offends me, it has always offended me.  i don't understand waking up one day and thinking that something that i have been totally okay with for years is suddenly offensive. 

Yes! Thank you!

This is a fantastic question and I think our discussion needs to be focused here moving forward.

As someone who is ethnically ambiguous, and who some people couldn't figure out which slur to throw at me, I can give a little perspective here. Other people of color please chime in.

I was afraid to. I wanted to fit in to middle-class, white culture. Laugh off the stereotypes and the slurs so I could exist in that lifestyle.

Why is it different now? Well, I'm no longer a kid, we're all comparing notes and saying, hey that happened to me too! We are coming together and saying, enough. This America shouldn't be glorifying the homogenous of old, violently grasping at the ways things were.

We just want representation, and a voice, and not just in sports. We are tired of getting dismissed. "It's just a joke! If you don't like it, just leave!" No, you leave, hombre. I can have my taco and eat it too.

[Aldo]

And enough with the "color blind" stupidity.

I'm brown and I will take you on a damn taco tour. Embrace that I love my culture, and it could potentially be different than yours.

[MeanGreenTexan]

27 minutes ago, Aldo said:

And enough with the "color blind" stupidity.

I'm brown and I will take you on a damn taco tour. Embrace that I love my culture, and it could potentially be different than yours.

This is very important.  You're absolutely right.
I cringe when I hear people say that.  Because for some, they're trying to be sincere, but not coming across the right way.  And for some, it's a forcefield to remain ignorant of others. 

To me, there are 2 layers of the "color blind" ideal.

1. Personally/Spiritually - in this sense, when trying to relate to someone individually, heart-to-heart, you want to remove a boundary as thin as simply someone's skin color.   I think this is where those who are truly being sincere are when they say this are.  It's a deeper level of human-ness.  We're all God's favorite creation, in His image, even if some folks look different on the surface.   However, it ignores...

2. Culturally/Traditionally - in this sense, trying to be "color blind" washes out the important things that form who a person is through their life experiences.  And often times, more/less melanin in someone's skin brings a different culture, as you're saying.  Those differences need to be celebrated, not washed away in "blindness".

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

And now Syrup! When will this whitewashing of racism stop!?? 

Why can't we enjoy our breakfast with a healthy dose of racism? 

Interesting that the Senate approved a statue for southern "Slave Mammies" in 1923. What a crazy country - that we nearly had a monument to the "faithful slave" and not the ones that struggled to get free. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/the-mammy-washington-almost-had/276431/

[MeanGreenTexan]

39 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

And now Syrup! When will this whitewashing of racism stop!?? 

Why can't we enjoy our breakfast with a healthy dose of racism? 

Interesting that the Senate approved a statue for southern "Slave Mammies" in 1923. What a crazy country - that we nearly had a monument to the "faithful slave" and not the ones that struggled to get free. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/the-mammy-washington-almost-had/276431/

I have to admit, I was shocked on this one and forced to do some digging as to why.   Of course, I'm too young to remember or never paid attention to very old advertisements that are popping up on social media now.  I've only ever recognized this Aunt Jemima:

...who just looks like a nice older black lady to me.  There doesn't seem to be anything racist about her at all.


However, she is not the original: 

 

The rebranding from the original to what we see today definitely needed to happen because the above is clearly a reduced caricature (complete with written dialect).   But since the original one existed, the rebranded one needs to go as well?

Uncle Ben is most certainly next.  I did not know this before, but "aunt" & "uncle" were terms used for house slaves?
I assume if old caricatures of the Cream of Wheat chef, or any other friendly old black person as the brand, pop up, they'll be gone as well.

[UNTLifer]

2 hours ago, Aldo said:

And enough with the "color blind" stupidity.

I'm brown and I will take you on a damn taco tour. Embrace that I love my culture, and it could potentially be different than yours.

Where do I sign up for the tour?

 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

But since the original one existed, the rebranded one needs to go as well?

I think it boils down to name and intention. VW was used by Germany's army and had very bad image. But "VW" itself wasn't setup as a name to mock, whitewash or ridicule Jews. Hugo Boss made the Nazi uniforms - but "Hugo Boss" isn't named like "Dumb Jew" or something like that. 

"Aunt Jemima" and "Uncle Ben" were setup for that whole purpose. Mrs. Buttersworth is not as clear cut IMO.  

But really - this was not that long ago. My grandmother is still alive. I definitely grew up with old mammy syrup bottles in my house as a kid. The 'working on the railroad' song STILL is sung with very racist lyrics in certain portions of this country.. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

2 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

I think it boils down to name and intention. VW was used by Germany's army and had very bad image. But "VW" itself wasn't setup as a name to mock, whitewash or ridicule Jews. Hugo Boss made the Nazi uniforms - but "Hugo Boss" isn't named like "Dumb Jew" or something like that. 

"Aunt Jemima" and "Uncle Ben" were setup for that whole purpose. Mrs. Buttersworth is not as clear cut IMO.  

But really - this was not that long ago. My grandmother is still alive. I definitely grew up with old mammy syrup bottles in my house as a kid. The 'working on the railroad' song STILL is sung with very racist lyrics in certain portions of this country.. 

So be it.  If indeed the entire history is to be taken into account, I can certainly see how it's offensive & can be discarded, even if the newer version of her is more innocuous.

The bolded point is an interesting dynamic as well. 
Obviously your grandmother's (and likely mine since we're likely around the same age?) generation is not going to be quite as active on social media and getting out in the thick of protests, but she was likely impacted first-hand by Jim Crow laws.  Whereas our parents' and our generation saw/sees the residuals of that era still very much in existence.  I wish we could hear more from that generation, generally speaking, but on this topic specifically.

Like in your grandmother's instance, how did those old syrup bottles affect her then, in her youth, VS how Aunt Jemima or Uncle Ben affects her now?

[wardly]

23 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

So be it.  If indeed the entire history is to be taken into account, I can certainly see how it's offensive & can be discarded, even if the newer version of her is more innocuous.

The bolded point is an interesting dynamic as well. 
Obviously your grandmother's (and likely mine since we're likely around the same age?) generation is not going to be quite as active on social media and getting out in the thick of protests, but she was likely impacted first-hand by Jim Crow laws.  Whereas our parents' and our generation saw/sees the residuals of that era still very much in existence.  I wish we could hear more from that generation, generally speaking, but on this topic specifically.

Like in your grandmother's instance, how did those old syrup bottles affect her then, in her youth, VS how Aunt Jemima or Uncle Ben affects her now?

As I have posted before, I am male,white,77, and grew up in segregation . Separate public schools,  bathrooms, drinking fountains, and Blacks and Mexicans to the back of the bus. I was from a lower middle class family in Ft. Worth, and never went to school with a person of color until 1961,my freshman year at NTSU. There was only one men's dorm, West Hall, where I lived one semester. I don't recall anyone of color residing there. I majored in business, and again don't remember anyone of color in my classes. I took a "Coaching in Football" class, and sat next to A.D. Whitfield, an African American running back who I think went on to play a few years for the Redskins. One day the coach on staff starting talking about making sling shots as a kid, but that's not what he called them. For the first time in my life I felt shame. Denton was segregated. Movie theaters, dinning , you name it. J.C. Mathews was our school president at the time, and he was not going to rock the boat. During the summer of 1963[ either 63' or 64'] Mathews and the Mayor of Denton got together and removed all racial barriers , at least on paper. What surprised me is that it has taken so long to remove the downtown Confederate Memorial . These men and their generals were traitors to our nation who fought for one reason, and that was to keep the institution of slavery. Call me old fashion, but I don't see any statues of Benedict Arnold in city parks. In summary, I will never know what it is like to be a person of color in America, nor will any whites. What I would ask my pale skinned friends is to try to envision what it would be like to be black or brown, to go to a school or live on a street named for someone who fought to keep you enslaved. What would it be like to be a soldier of color at Ft. Hood, to play with your kids at Robert E. Lee Park. I know we can't rewrite history, but we can eliminate the glorification of "The Lost Cause", which is an embarrassment to our nation. Just an old man's opinion.

 

[UNTexas]

Now people want the Rangers to change their name. I'm sorry, this is getting absurd.

[DeepGreen]

Yet.....

A friend of mine who was attached to the SE Texas Refinery and Petrochemical business, sent me a photo last year of a large, German made pipeline valve still in use at a Texaco Refinery (now Shell Motiva, I believe) down there.  The German Swastika emblem was clearly visible.  I couldn't believe my eyes.

[MCMLXXX]

1 hour ago, UNTexas said:

Now people want the Rangers to change their name. I'm sorry, this is getting absurd.

Astros is taken and I would not change the name to a Native American people group, or ethnic group. 

[UNTFan23]

2 hours ago, UNTexas said:

Now people want the Rangers to change their name. I'm sorry, this is getting absurd.

First I have heard of this. Why?

[RiseUNT]

2 hours ago, UNTexas said:

Now people want the Rangers to change their name. I'm sorry, this is getting absurd.

Not the first time.

14 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

First I have heard of this. Why?

Let’s just say Rangers back in the day did some bad things to black, brown, and red people.

 

[MeanGreenTeeth]

23 hours ago, wardly said:

These men and their generals were traitors to our nation who fought for one reason, and that was to keep the institution of slavery.

I respect most of what you said, but that portion can't stand.  That's just factually incorrect.  The overarching cause of the Civil War may have been slavery, but that's not what drove the vast majority to fight (hell.. many were conscripts).   The civil war only occurred a little over 70 years after the adoption of the Constitution.  Folks were much more loyal to their states in those days and many still considered themselves citizens of separate little countries within a federal system.  Calling them traitors isn't fair and frankly is counterproductive.  Lincoln fully recognized this. Badmouthing people's ancestors isn't going to get people on your side and frankly helps poison the well of civil discussion.

23 hours ago, wardly said:

Call me old fashion, but I don't see any statues of Benedict Arnold in city parks.

No.  But he was unquestionably the major hero at the battle of Saratoga which was a vital victory for the patriots.  I believe there is a statue of the leg he lost there to honor the part of him that remained a hero. 🙂

Edited June 19, 2020 by MeanGreenTeeth

[Venson]

23 hours ago, wardly said:

What would it be like to be a soldier of color at Ft. Hood

I can answer that. We don't think about it because we don't really care about the name that much. Probably because we are not asked to learn the history of the men the Posts are named for. They want you to know the history of the unit you are assigned to and I have never been in any unit that traces it's lineage back to the Confederacy. All my years in service, I never heard a black Soldier discuss Forts Hood, Benning, Bragg, Lee, Polk, Gordon, etc needing to be renamed. I am sure someone may have discussed it, but honestly most of us don't care about the names. People outside the Army care a hell of a lot more than Soldiers. I knew all those places were named for Confederates, but I kind of looked at it as they are dead and gone so never bothered me. We mainly care about whether the person to our left and right are going to do their job when it counts in combat whether that person is black or white or any shade between.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Venson
More information provided.

[THOR]

3 hours ago, DeepGreen said:

Yet.....

A friend of mine who was attached to the SE Texas Refinery and Petrochemical business, sent me a photo last year of a large, German made pipeline valve still in use at a Texaco Refinery (now Shell Motiva, I believe) down there.  The German Swastika emblem was clearly visible.  I couldn't believe my eyes.

that's some great german engineering if that shit is still in good us after 70 years...impressive

 

the jains (jainism) use a swastika for a symbol of their religion...just another example of the swastika in use.  not many here in the usa, but would they have to change that?  i hope it

Edited June 19, 2020 by THOR

[DeepGreen]

5 minutes ago, THOR said:

that's some great german engineering if that shit is still in good us after 70 years...impressive

You know, I was thinking the same thing when I first saw that picture.  Looked like it was forged yesterday.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

58 minutes ago, MeanGreenTeeth said:

Calling them traitors isn't fair and frankly is counterproductive.

It's entirely fair and factual. They were traitors to the country. 

You are right, during reconstruction it was found to be counter-productive, so the "Lost Cause" narrative was allowed to foster and fester. Fester to allow it to white-wash history and change racist songs into 'folk songs' that children sing.  

The confederacy lasted five years. I wear t-shirts older than that. Hardly ancestral t-shirts.  

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

"The NCAA on Friday expanded its policy banning states with prominent Confederate symbols from hosting its sponsored events, one day after the Southeastern Conference made a similar declaration aimed at the Mississippi state flag." 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/ncaa-no-championships-in-states-with-confederate-symbol/2020/06/19/36f65bfa-b242-11ea-98b5-279a6479a1e4_story.html?utm_source=reddit.com

I am going to be shedding tears for the states that haven't come to their senses over the last 150 years.. 

[NM Green]

Of course you will. It’s easy that wAy. Fight back Mississippi Rebels. UNLV folded like a Seattle folding chair☺️

[Aldo]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTeeth said:

The overarching cause of the Civil War may have been slavery...Folks were much more loyal to their states in those days and many still considered themselves citizens of separate little countries within a federal system.

In Articles of Secession from the states, it says (I am paraphrasing)

"We want to be able to have slaves, and get them back if they escape to anti-slave states. You can't make them free."

The Missouri Compromise and 3/5th Compromise were all devised to keep slaveholding states in power.

After the South lost the war, there were many freedmen that were voted in to seats at various levels of government. In 1868, former slaveholders were no happy, and so they basically went around and started murdering freedmen in the thousands to suppress voter turnout, and to remove them from office (look it up).

Then Jim Crowe. Then the reaction to Brown v Board of Education (that's where all the confederate flags started showing up that weren't even the well-known confederate flags).

This ain't about fighting to preserve state identity. It's a different fight to preserve identity we're talking about.

[Aldo]

2 hours ago, MeanGreenTeeth said:

No.  But he was unquestionably the major hero at the battle of Saratoga which was a vital victory for the patriots.  I believe there is a statue of the leg he lost there to honor the part of him that remained a hero. 🙂

Benedict Arnold couldn't even beat Canada so there's strikes 2 and 3 right there

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

2 hours ago, Venson said:

People outside the Army care a hell of a lot more than Soldiers

I mean, those outside people pay for the Army... and the Army fights to uphold the rights and values of those people.... so...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess their opinion matters on the government matters. 

Certainly no disrespect intended. But I don't think the soldiers feelings on the name of government institution is what matters at the end of the day. Soldiers should be thinking about their job and not what the name of their base represents. That is good that it didn't affect you. 
 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin
..

[Hunter Green]

I'm not sure how eliminating everything is supposed to unite everyone. Unless unity isn't the goal.

Just sayin.