UT Athletes demand removal of racist song

[Rudy]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

While we are changing things, I would like Mother F’ing removed from our fight song. 

No, you're not offended enough. 

[Milo]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

While we are changing things, I would like Mother F’ing removed from our fight song. 

No thank you, that's the best part.

[UNTLifer]

2 hours ago, Rudy said:

No, you're not offended enough. 

Should I burn or steal something?

[UNTLifer]

2 hours ago, Milo said:

No thank you, that's the best part.

Some day, when you are sitting there with your 6 or 7 year old child, you may change your tune. 

[RiseUNT]

16 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Should I burn or steal something?

Are the UT players burning or stealing something?

[eulessismore]

On the one hand, why should we care about whether UT athletes are giving their own school a well deserved dressing down?

More to the point, why should I be surprised when members of a forum of UNT alums don't really seem to appreciate the evolving perception of music genres (not to mention the UNT involvement in such)? In the 2010 New York Times obit for Leon Breeden, director of the UNT Jazz Studies program from 1959 to 1981, mentions that when he arrived, North Texas already had the oldest degree granting "jazz" program in the nation, but that could only be whispered, not boasted about, at a time when jazz was seen as barely suitable for night clubs. And I know many of y'all don't think much of the New York Times lately, but you'd be honored if they did your obituary. Here's a link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/arts/music/14breeden.html

 

[letsgiveacheer]

23 minutes ago, eulessismore said:

On the one hand, why should we care about whether UT athletes are giving their own school a well deserved dressing down?

More to the point, why should I be surprised when members of a forum of UNT alums don't really seem to appreciate the evolving perception of music genres (not to mention the UNT involvement in such)? In the 2010 New York Times obit for Leon Breeden, director of the UNT Jazz Studies program from 1959 to 1981, mentions that when he arrived, North Texas already had the oldest degree granting "jazz" program in the nation, but that could only be whispered, not boasted about, at a time when jazz was seen as barely suitable for night clubs. And I know many of y'all don't think much of the New York Times lately, but you'd be honored if they did your obituary. Here's a link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/arts/music/14breeden.html

 

I'm not certain where the author received her information about North Texas' jazz program "being in the closet". The forerunner, The Aces of Collegeland, had a nationally broadcast radio program as early as the 2O's. In the early 60's, the 1 0'Clock jazz band was broadcast over the Voice of America as well as touring. There may be something to her claim that jazz was not considered a proper major in those early days, but almost every music school of any size now offers a degree in jazz, including Juilliard.

[MeanGreenTeeth]

The problem with all of this is if you take it to it's logical ends, then almost everything has to be cancelled/torn down/renamed.   Austin itself would need to be renamed because SFA was a slaveowner.  One of the most cherished Christian Hymns, "Amazing Grace", was written by a slaver.  Disney probably needs to be renamed and many works expunged as racist and anti-Semitic themes are found in Walt's work.  Statues of Washington and Jefferson would need to be toppled.  LBJ, despite shepherding  in the civil rights act, was quite racist on a personal level, so the LBJ library would need to be closed.   As pretty much everyone was pretty dang racist by today's standards, almost anything that pays tribute to a white person before 1950 would need to be removed as, no doubt, they did not see blacks as true equals.  This process would literally never end, because there is a plausible argument that so many things had racist roots or were created by people who were themselves racist.

Edited June 15, 2020 by MeanGreenTeeth

[THOR]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTeeth said:

The problem with all of this is if you take it to it's logical ends, then almost everything has to be cancelled/torn down/renamed.   Austin itself would need to be renamed because SFA was a slaveowner.  One of the most cherished Christian Hymns, "Amazing Grace", was written by a slaver.  Disney probably needs to be renamed and many works expunged as racist and anti-Semitic themes are found in Walt's work.  Statues of Washington and Jefferson would need to be toppled.  LBJ, despite shepherding  in the civil rights right, was quite racist on a personal level, so the LBJ library would need to be closed.   As pretty much everyone was pretty dang racist by today's standards, almost anything that pays tribute to a white person before 1950 would need to be removed as, no doubt, they did not see blacks as true equals.  This process would literally never end, because there is a plausible argument that so many things had racist roots or were created by people who were themselves racist.

people aren't using logic today, so it should all be good.  

[DeepGreen]

The United States of America needs a reboot.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

43 minutes ago, MeanGreenTeeth said:

 This process would literally never end, because there is a plausible argument that so many things had racist roots or were created by people who were themselves racist.

I am sure you can differentiate between flawed people doing good things and flawed people doing hateful things, yes?

A racist can design a couch and sell that couch and anyone can sit on that couch - no big deal, right? That racist can have their personal opinion and be hateful and live their hateful life as long as they aren't breaking laws.

Or a racist can design a couch that is only for whites and if a black person wants to sit on that couch they are beaten - that is a big deal, right?

There are NO good wholesome minstrel shows. They were and are racist and harmful. They are not good ole fun. 

It is not a slippery slope. I don't get why you snowflakes are so upset by these athletes trying to not sing along to minstrel music. 

[MeanGreenTeeth]

Yeah

30 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

I am sure you can differentiate between flawed people doing good things and flawed people doing hateful things, yes?

A racist can design a couch and sell that couch and anyone can sit on that couch - no big deal, right? That racist can have their personal opinion and be hateful and live their hateful life as long as they aren't breaking laws.

1.  So.. to have a more apt example..  should we bring down statues of Washington, rename Washington DC (and state), and close down Mt Vernon?  Surely slaveholding is much more offending than a rather innocuous song on its face that was first sung by a minstrel group (which no doubt is despicable) .

2.  Let's have another thought experiment.  If we were to find a lost cartoon of Mickey Mouse.  Let's say it was the first one and it was forgotten to time.  Then let's say it was super-racist and Mickey was portrayed as a black person in the most disparaging way.   To your way of thinking, should all Mickey Mouse merchandise, cartoons, etc., be eliminated in the present day or would it be more rational to say that for the last 90 years Mickey has had no racial connotation and the discovery of some original sin in his production shouldn't invalidate everything that came afterwards?   

3.  Snowflakes are terms for people who are easily offended.  As if offends me in no way for the song to be taken down, I can't see how that applies to me.   I'm not saying that the people who want it taking down are snowflakes either, I'm just saying that this sort of puritanical stance will in fact lead to a slippery slope.  It may not "cancel" sofas and bridges, but it surely will a lot.  It's important to keep in mind that this song is just a very small piece of the grievances being raised.

4. I have no problem with the athletes not being forced to sing it, or anything for that matter. 

[97and03]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:15 AM, Censored by Laurie said:

proposed new name for the Pie forum.

CBL wins the internet today 

[DeepGreen]

I didn’t know this but UTEP uses the same Eyes of Texas song.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

20 hours ago, MeanGreenTeeth said:

1.  Washington Statue -
2.  Blackface Mickey -
3.  Snowflakes -
4. OK

1. Again - you are projecting your slippery slope argument and saying that we will lead to horses wearing people clothes. Did Washington start a war to protect slavery? Was he a traitor to his country? To my knowledge he did not.. So... I assume you are trying to draw a line to people removing confederate statues during protests? Or Christoper Columbus (which in itself is an odd thing to have a statue of - he was not a good person at all and his whole US history is nearly a lie )? I don't see the see slope of those arguments. 

But if a black community decides rename their elementary school from Washington Elementary to Langston Hughes Elementary - that does not offend me. I couldn't care less. If they think it represents the goals and values of their school - perfect - the should do it. 

Renaming Washington DC? Sure. I don't care. I don't live there. I don't have skin in that game. But you are using this a slippery slope strawman line of of thinking.  

Like people arguing against gays marrying because it will lead to people marrying animals. That is just bananas. 

We can agree as adults that truly offensive characters in history don't deserver to be pillars of history. 

2. Is the soul purpose of Mickey set up to mock and ridicule a race? No? Ok. Great. We can agree on that. 
If I learned that his character was used for that purpose for whole generation of people, but then was white washed into being acceptable for white kids later? I would not accept Mickey. It would not enter my house for my kids. The same way other racist Disney characters have been sidelined and are not sold anymore.  I don't find the logic hard. 

3. Snowflake. Funny. 

4. I am glad you accept the line of reasoning that Texas should change their fight song - since you are not offended by their offense of the minstrel tune.
 

[wardly]

On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 8:37 AM, eulessismore said:

On the one hand, why should we care about whether UT athletes are giving their own school a well deserved dressing down?

More to the point, why should I be surprised when members of a forum of UNT alums don't really seem to appreciate the evolving perception of music genres (not to mention the UNT involvement in such)? In the 2010 New York Times obit for Leon Breeden, director of the UNT Jazz Studies program from 1959 to 1981, mentions that when he arrived, North Texas already had the oldest degree granting "jazz" program in the nation, but that could only be whispered, not boasted about, at a time when jazz was seen as barely suitable for night clubs. And I know many of y'all don't think much of the New York Times lately, but you'd be honored if they did your obituary. Here's a link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/arts/music/14breeden.html

 

As a freshman in 1961 ,the One O'clock Lab Band was well known on campus, and all students were required to take a one hour Music Appreciation Course.

[DeepGreen]

49 minutes ago, wardly said:

Music Appreciation Course

I took that course too.  Required course for all students.  Waste of time for me.

Who could forget the Student Use Of English requirement!

[97and03]

@SteaminWillieBeamin

Technically Washington was a traitor to his country - England. 
But to that point - are there Washington statues in London? Because there is a Jefferson Davis statues in the friggin’ US Capitol building! 

[letsgiveacheer]

3 hours ago, 97and03 said:

@SteaminWillieBeamin

Technically Washington was a traitor to his country - England. 
But to that point - are there Washington statues in London? Because there is a Jefferson Davis statues in the friggin’ US Capitol building! 

As a matter of fact, there is a statue of Washington in London. Right on Trafalgar Square!

 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

34 minutes ago, letsgiveacheer said:

As a matter of fact, there is a statue of Washington in London. Right on Trafalgar Square!

 

Jefferson Davis led the Confederacy to become the richest most powerful country on earth... He should rightfully have a statue. /s

Edited June 16, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin
...

[greenjoe]

Washington was born in Virginia

[El Paso Eagle]

5 minutes ago, greenjoe said:

Washington was born in Virginia

Yes, but as the US was not yet in existence I believe he would have been considered a British Citizen

 

On February 22, 1732, George Washington is born in Westmoreland County, Virginia, the first of six children of Augustine and Mary Ball Washington. (Augustine had three additional children from his first marriage.) An initially loyal British subject, Washington eventually led the Continental Army in the American Revolution and became the new nation's first president. He is often referred to as the father of the United States. Washington rose to eminence on his own merit. His first job at age 17 was as a surveyor in the Shenandoah Valley. In 1752, he joined the British army and served as a lieutenant in the French and Indian War.

[MCMLXXX]

3 minutes ago, greenjoe said:

Washington was born in Virginia

I know a woman named Virginia who was born in Washington. Coincidence? It sure is a small world.

[97and03]

10 hours ago, letsgiveacheer said:

As a matter of fact, there is a statue of Washington in London. Right on Trafalgar Square!

 

And much like most Confederate monuments it wasn’t a contemporary act.

Donated by Virginia in 1921. But kind of cool the British put it there. By then the UK and US had finally been on the same side of a war at least! 

[wardly]

20 hours ago, DeepGreen said:

I took that course too.  Required course for all students.  Waste of time for me.

Who could forget the Student Use Of English requirement!

Actually I had a pledge take the Music Appreciation course for me. Scored an "A".