DEFUNDING THE POLICE

[untbowler]

5 hours ago, Coffee and TV said:

Here's the Buffalo PD all lined up outside the courtroom to applaud the elder abusers. Ya know those "few bad apples" 

 

and if you were being honest and telling the truth, the 75 y.o. was an agitator who went there to have fun, that was his helmet, not a PD helmet and he progressed towards them, this is not some frail 75 y.o. he was agitator who loved posting on social media "douchebag the Police" Yeah feel real bad for him. 

[CMJ]

The 75 year old protester probably was a peaceful guy, I don't know.  I have watched that video at least two dozen times and he wasn't pushed that hard.  He stumbled and hit his head in a freak way, and since he's elderly it definitely LOOKS awful.  And the cops that did it should be reprimanded somehow because how bad it looks to push an elderly guy to the ground, but in no way was that what I'd call an assault.  It was an accident. 

 

Also the idea that no one really stopped to call it in (which I've also seen said) is obviously false.  There were guys immediately doing so.

[Censored by Laurie]

parse it out however...age, intent, severity of shove...I don't understand how anyone can watch that video and feel that's an acceptable example of what policing should look like in this country. 

[NT93]

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883

An opinion piece, but backed up by factual statistical data.

[Coffee and TV]

3 hours ago, untbowler said:

and if you were being honest and telling the truth, the 75 y.o. was an agitator who went there to have fun, that was his helmet, not a PD helmet and he progressed towards them, this is not some frail 75 y.o. he was agitator who loved posting on social media "douchebag the Police" Yeah feel real bad for him. 

Yeah sure, dude totally deserved to end up in the hospital because he didn't like cops, and cops never lie to make themselves the innocent victims. Just like Seattle PD saying they got "explosive devises" thrown at them. Aka CANDLES. 

Or how about Austin PD tweeting about all the nice thank yous and well-wishes they've received in the mail, which were clearly fakes because all the handwriting is exactly the same? 

 

Why do you people fall for this obvious garbage you're being sold? You wanna proudly brag about how you can see right through crooked politicians, but think their police forces are unimpeachable in all of this? Come on man. 

[UNTLifer]

On 6/6/2020 at 11:30 PM, Coffee and TV said:

Why do you people fall for this obvious garbage you're being sold? You wanna proudly brag about how you can see right through crooked politicians, but think their police forces are unimpeachable in all of this? Come on man. 

You fall for the typical liberal bullshit, so what's the difference?  Nobody said police forces are unimpeachable, but you group them all together and blame the full lot for the actions of a few.

I just observed a situation in the town where I live.  From the initial video provided, it didn't look good for the police.  "Victim" calls in big-time civil rights lawyer from Dallas and causes an uproar in the city.  Complete videos are released and all goes silent because the "victim" was in the wrong all along.  Point?  These things go both ways.  There are bad actors on both sides of this situation, but stereotyping the entire lot over the actions of a few, like you are doing, is not productive.

[El Paso Eagle]

12 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

You fall for the typical liberal bullshit, so what's the difference?  Nobody said police forces are unimpeachable, but you group them all together and blame the full lot for the actions of a few.

I just observed a situation in the town where I live.  From the initial video provided, it didn't look good for the police.  "Victim" calls in big-time civil rights lawyer from Dallas and causes an uproar in the city.  Complete videos are released and all goes silent because the "victim" was in the wrong all along.  Point?  These things go both ways.  There are bad actors on both sides of this situation, but stereotyping the entire lot over the actions of a few, like you are doing, is not productive.

 

[97and03]

This kind of thing isn’t helping 

I am taking this with a grain of salt bc I don’t know the source very well but doesn’t look good on the surface 

Edited June 9, 2020 by 97and03

[El Paso Eagle]

 

NAACP president declines to endorse ‘defund police’ movement

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/naacp-president-declines-to-endorse-defund-police-movement

 

[MGNation92]

ITT:

The state has a monopoly on violence. Always has.

Nothing will change. Statists gonna statist

Edit: Buy a gun. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by MGNation92

[southsideguy]

Here is  an idea, before defunding police why not have them not work for a month and then have a city council meeting about defunding the department?   

[Quoner]

From a retired Baltimore police officer: https://gen.medium.com/trust-me-minneapolis-is-right-to-defund-its-police-force-8a1a515449ad

Quote

Police departments should be defunded and have their budgets redistributed into social services in the communities. When I was a cop, I was asked to do so much that I wasn’t qualified to do. I had to respond to calls for people suffering extreme mental health issues, to try to mediate disputes between neighbors that shouldn’t have required police involvement. It shouldn’t have been a cop answering those calls; it should have been a social worker, maybe a mental health counselor.

Derek Chauvin began his career around the same time I did. While we worked for different departments in different cities, I know he experienced the same style of “police reform” that I did in 2015. I knew then it wasn’t working, and he’s the proof. Policing can’t get unlimited attempts at reform. It’s time for a new, more radical approach. Minneapolis is finally taking that step. Hopefully, others do, too.

I've heard these thoughts from a few police friends and yes, the defund label is extreme sounding when it is a really a reallocation/rethinking, but we also all heard David Brown tell us the same thing almost exactly four years ago and mostly ignored him. It wasn't an ask for more punisher flags or people to stand during anthems, it was an ask for a fundamental change to the system. 

Quote

 

“We’re asking cops to do too much in this country” said Brown.

“Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve” said Brown. He listed mental health, drug addiction, loose dogs, failing schools as problems the public expects ‘cops to solve.’

 

 

[CMJ]

On the counter of that, when my wife was a beat cop (back before we met) she said she was called countless times by social service workers who wanted a police officer to be there because they couldn't get a situation under control.  This was especially true in domestic violence situations.

[Quoner]

2 hours ago, CMJ said:

On the counter of that, when my wife was a beat cop (back before we met) she said she was called countless times by social service workers who wanted a police officer to be there because they couldn't get a situation under control.  This was especially true in domestic violence situations.

And in a new paradigm, they could figure out how to train specific roles to assist and reinforce her. I don't think any reasonable person is advocating for leaving social services on their own or arming them. There's a lot of nuance and discussion needed around what it looks like, but the aggressive language has the same people who brought you "lock her/him up," "show us the birth certificate," and "build the wall" chaffing their adult diapers because it sounds "too harsh and out there."

[THOR]

3 hours ago, Quoner said:

From a retired Baltimore police officer: https://gen.medium.com/trust-me-minneapolis-is-right-to-defund-its-police-force-8a1a515449ad

I've heard these thoughts from a few police friends and yes, the defund label is extreme sounding when it is a really a reallocation/rethinking, but we also all heard David Brown tell us the same thing almost exactly four years ago and mostly ignored him. It wasn't an ask for more punisher flags or people to stand during anthems, it was an ask for a fundamental change to the system. 

 

then go ahead and defund teachers....they do so much more shit than they are qualified/educated for but it's part of their job and you do the best you can. 

 

no job will ever fully prepare each person to be an expert in all situations

Edited June 9, 2020 by THOR

[Quoner]

12 minutes ago, THOR said:

then go ahead and defund teachers....they do so much more shit than they are qualified/educated for but it's part of their job and you do the best you can. 

 

no job will ever fully prepare each person to be an expert in all situations

Well yeah.... but almost every proposal or explanation of what this includes some of the funding - especially the funds currently used to repurchase decommisioned and new military or over-priced weapons - invested back in education. You're acting like the major city police budgets are going directly into the pockets of those who serve. You're also talking over direct quotes from two police officers that have said we are doing too much to just say, well yeah, that's life, better do your best. Would you say that to an HR leader who suddenly had to do a systems engineering role or would you try to find a systems engineer so they could do what they do best?

 

[Quoner]

24 minutes ago, THOR said:

then go ahead and defund teachers....

Buddy...I have terrible news. 

[ColoradoEagle]

4 hours ago, CMJ said:

On the counter of that, when my wife was a beat cop (back before we met) she said she was called countless times by social service workers who wanted a police officer to be there because they couldn't get a situation under control.  This was especially true in domestic violence situations.

I've known social workers, and yes, this definitely happens. The term "defund the police" is pretty bad from a political standpoint, especially after "defund Planned Parenthood" has been used for decades to basically say "ban abortion."

That said, ideally what this movement would be about and address is what Quoner has been talking about, and what Brown was talking about. To borrow a PSA argument, we shut down asylums and didn't do anything with people with mental health issues: let the police take care of it. Instead of more local programs to help/serve the homeless population: let the police take care of it. Instead of more local programs to help and address drug addictions from 'legal' drugs like opioids all the way to meth: let the police take care of it.

We need to begin shifting to a way of local government that addresses issues at their core instead of shifting that responsibility to the police. In the end, that's better for both the community and for the police.

[El Paso Eagle]

7 hours ago, 97and03 said:

This kind of thing isn’t helping 

I am taking this with a grain of salt bc I don’t know the source very well but doesn’t look good on the surface 

From the same article - Updated

Update, 6/8/20: The Star Tribune has identified the officers puncturing tires as state troopers and deputies from the Anoka County Sheriff’s Office. The officers strategically deflated the tires to “stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement,” said Minnesota Department of Public Safety spokesperson Bruce Gordon. The troopers reportedly targeted cars that “contained items used to cause harm during violent protests” such as rocks and concrete. The Anoka County Sheriff’s Lt. Andy Knotz said deputies were following directions from the state-led Multiagency Command Center.

[Censored by Laurie]

51 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

From the same article - Updated

Update, 6/8/20: The Star Tribune has identified the officers puncturing tires as state troopers and deputies from the Anoka County Sheriff’s Office. The officers strategically deflated the tires to “stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement,” said Minnesota Department of Public Safety spokesperson Bruce Gordon. The troopers reportedly targeted cars that “contained items used to cause harm during violent protests” such as rocks and concrete. The Anoka County Sheriff’s Lt. Andy Knotz said deputies were following directions from the state-led Multiagency Command Center.

oh my. 

[El Paso Eagle]

On 6/6/2020 at 10:47 AM, Coffee and TV said:

DeBlasio sucks, what's that got to do with abusive police? 

From your favorite mayor 😈  - This will make it better

De Blasio: NYC will paint 'Black Lives Matter' on major streets in all 5 boroughs

[LongJim]

20 hours ago, Quoner said:

And in a new paradigm, they could figure out how to train specific roles to assist and reinforce her. I don't think any reasonable person is advocating for leaving social services on their own or arming them. There's a lot of nuance and discussion needed around what it looks like, but the aggressive language has the same people who brought you "lock her/him up," "show us the birth certificate," and "build the wall" chaffing their adult diapers because it sounds "too harsh and out there."

Good post.  I think that obviously there needs to be more definition of what this would look like.  I think that--as usual--there's a lot of knee-jerking that is hampering constructive/objective examination of how a better paradigm could be constructed.  Any new paradigm will obviously have limits as far as practicality, as well.

But as I think you are alluding--some kind of change needs to happen in the system such that cops aren't charged with fixing problems they are not trained and equipped to solve.  A big piece of that fix that must be understood and overcome is that in the heat of moment, split-second decisions do not always allow for mediation, kindness, or empathy, but rather self-preservation, and the preservation of those they are called to serve.  Will be an interesting process, for sure.

[Censored by Laurie]

15 hours ago, El Paso Eagle said:

This will make it better

did this make anything "better"?

 

[untbowler]

On 6/9/2020 at 9:07 AM, 97and03 said:

This kind of thing isn’t helping 

I am taking this with a grain of salt bc I don’t know the source very well but doesn’t look good on the surface 

ask the Mayor or Governor, someone on their staff was obviously ok with it.

 

[MeanGreenTexan]

I'm not sure I understand how this would be implemented.

Police departments have finite budgets.  If money will be taken from them to fund other programs, will current officers be terminated in order to backfill their position with a Mental Health specialist, Social Work specialist, other specialists?    Will it be a one-for-one?   If so, will these specialists be on-call 24/7?  Who would take that position?  What happens when these specialists go on a vacation & some crisis happens?  In this case, you're also taking beat cops out of a rotation, which will make the job tougher for the remaining officers.   This will likely put a ton of stress on 911 agents as well to have to quickly diagnose a situation and identify the proper people to engage.

Are we sure we don't want to just ramp-up education programs around mental health, social work, de-escalation strategies, etc... for current police officers?   

Also, the hard part for police departments is that their lowest-paid, most unqualified officers are oftentimes the ones on the beats responding to these events.  Obviously, you promote your better officers to higher-paid positions which usually takes them off the front lines. 
In the George Floyd case, 2 of the 4 arrested officers were on the force for less than a year (I believe one of them was on his 3rd beat shift).  Their worlds are likely rocked right now.  Their 18-year veteran "training supervisor" is the one doing this in front of them.  I cant imagine either one of them wanted to speak up against him and tell him to 'get off' out of fear of retribution from their superior... though their hearts may have bled at the time.

I truly believe most police officers are trying their hardest to do the right thing, and are doing an overall great job.  But like any other profession, there are definitely officers that underperform.  And unfortunately in their line of work, that can lead to needless deaths.  I don't think defunding police is going to rid all departments of the "bad apples".

There just needs to be a lot of thought going into how it gets implemented.  This type of decision cannot be made out of emotion (however justified that emotion is).