Everything on the Table

[TheColonyEagle]

1 minute ago, 97and03 said:

“What difference is it if you die from a virus or a car wreck....you're still dead. However we seem to want to put in place sweeping changes to society for one cause and not the other. ”

Why do you have seat belts, turn signals, air bags, headlights, traffic lights, speed limits, a license, and law enforcement all involved when you get behind the wheel?  Do you think the first cars had all that? Or do you think all those restrictions and measures were put into place for public safety? 
I will answer for you: it’s all to try to keep you from dying. 

But they didn't force people to stop driving.

the "sweeping changes" aren't putting on seat belts....they're telling you to not get in your car.

I'm not saying don't wear seat belts....I'm saying let me drive and I'll wear my seat belt.

 

[97and03]

5 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

But they didn't force people to stop driving.

the "sweeping changes" aren't putting on seat belts....they're telling you to not get in your car.

I'm not saying don't wear seat belts....I'm saying let me drive and I'll wear my seat belt.

 

Yet you can’t drive if you don’t have all those things I listed. You have a choice if you comply with all the rules and regs. Otherwise you are punished. There are strict laws in place to protect public safety. Eventually you lose that privilege if you can’t follow the rules. People die because others speed, they don’t wear seatbelts, they drive drunk. And some of those people that die are the ones following all the rules. Those who chose to drive sensibly. 
And to continue your analogy, in times of emergency they do stop people from driving. They shut down entire major highways due to spills, fires, or other disaster conditions until it is safe to travel that road. 

[TheColonyEagle]

1 minute ago, 97and03 said:

Yet you can’t drive if you don’t have all those things I listed. You have a choice if you comply with all the rules and regs. Otherwise you are punished. There are strict laws in place to protect public safety. Eventually you lose that privilege if you can’t follow the rules. People die because others speed, they don’t wear seatbelts, they drive drunk. And some of those people that die are the ones following all the rules. Those who chose to drive sensibly. 
And to continue your analogy, in times of emergency they do stop people from driving. They shut down entire major highways due to spills, fires, or other disaster conditions until it is safe to travel that road. 

who defines "safe"? Fires aren't the only danger and we can't prevent every danger that's on the highway. To continue your analogy...if we know there are deer close to a highway up ahead, we should close the highway down until we can be sure that there are no deer anywhere near that highway. No one's allowed on it until we're sure.

This could go on forever....

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[97and03]

9 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

who defines "safe"? Fires aren't the only danger and we can't prevent every danger that's on the highway. To continue your analogy...if we know there are deer close to a highway up ahead, we should close the highway down until we can be sure that there are no deer anywhere near that highway. No one's allowed on it until we're sure.

This could go on forever....

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

Yes it is clear you are set in your view and nothing will change that. 
Hopefully you don’t get hit by a deer but don’t realize you were hit by a deer and then that deer hits someone you know three days later at your favorite restaurant.

Try to stay safe. Everyone else’s life depends upon it. 

[TheColonyEagle]

4 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

Yes it is clear you are set in your view and nothing will change that. 
Hopefully you don’t get hit by a deer but don’t realize you were hit by a deer and then that deer hits someone you know three days later at your favorite restaurant.

Try to stay safe. Everyone else’s life depends upon it. 

How would I infect someone at my favorite restaurant? All the guidelines from the experts were followed. Seems like I tried "to stay safe."

But to be sure....I guess I should've stayed home. That's really the only way to be sure. (at least that's what we thought...data suggests otherwise)

 

 

 

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, 97and03 said:

I will answer for you: it’s all to try to keep you from dying. 

Guess what, you will fail 100% of the time.  We are all going to die.

[C Rod]

[TheColonyEagle]

24 minutes ago, C Rod said:

exactly

[greenminer]

This data showing that NYC people who stayed at home are the ones now being treated the most.

I don't doubt the numbers, but it raises tons of questions IMO.  Were these people coming straight from home, after 2+ weeks of 100% isolation? Or was there a grocery/gas trip some where in there? Did anyone visit their house? Do they live with anyone?

I've seen surge in sentiment that these results are supposed to mean shelter-in-place is totally pointless. That's a logical leap I'm not ready to make.

I need to read more about it.

Edited May 13, 2020 by greenminer

[CMJ]

17 minutes ago, greenminer said:

This data showing that NYC people who stayed at home are the ones now being treated the most.

I don't doubt the numbers, but it raises tons of questions IMO.  Were these people coming straight from home, after 2+ weeks of 100% isolation? Or was there a grocery/gas trip some where in there? Did anyone visit their house? Do they live with anyone?

I've seen surge in sentiment that these results are supposed to mean shelter-in-place is totally pointless. That's a logical leap I'm not ready to make.

I need to read more about it.

I suspect grocery stores, other folks who live with them, etc are mixed in there.  All you need is a few situations where one person in a grocery store spreads it to a handful for that to spread to many others.

 

 

[El Paso Eagle]

20 hours ago, Aquila_Viridis said:

It seems like for the vast majority of people who get it, it’s no more than a cold. I am wondering how many people who die from it would have died from something else pretty soon. We should probably go on and build our societal immunity to it. 

Legitimate question. I would hope that everyone agree that anyone passing is not good. But I would like to see a breakdown that shows people who had no health problems, or very minor, compared to those who had more serious issues. On a recent local newscast they commented about four deaths to lead the story. At the very end they said how all four had a history of serious illnesses. Does it make it better or worse? NO! But it would be nice to have unbiased facts.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

3 hours ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Legitimate question. I would hope that everyone agree that anyone passing is not good. But I would like to see a breakdown that shows people who had no health problems, or very minor, compared to those who had more serious issues. On a recent local newscast they commented about four deaths to lead the story. At the very end they said how all four had a history of serious illnesses. Does it make it better or worse? NO! But it would be nice to have unbiased facts.

Unbiased facts are out there. What you consider serious health issues are not what covid considers serious. High blood pressure? Diabetes? Recovering from a prior normal cold? That's all it takes to be a 'high risk' pre-existing condition. You probably think it's only cancer, lupus, or more serious things.. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e6.htm

Just a mere 2.5 hour practice, with shared food environment, chair stacking and aerosol spraying from singing (cheering) and 3.7% of the choir ended up dead. 87% ended up catching it. And if it spread that easily 87%!! imagined how those people can then go to the grocery store and touch fruit and carts, or touch the tithe bowl... And it spreads so readily. 

On the hub club level, it's filled with gray hair, oxygen tanks and walkers. I swear it's a time bomb ready to go off with an outbreak. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin
..

[FirefightnRick]

2 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Unbiased facts are out there. What you consider serious health issues are not what covid considers serious. High blood pressure? Diabetes? Recovering from a prior normal cold? That's all it takes to be a 'high risk' pre-existing condition. You probably think it's only cancer, lupus, or more serious things.. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e6.htm

Just a mere 2.5 hour practice, with shared food environment, chair stacking and aerosol spraying from singing (cheering) and 3.7% of the choir ended up dead. 87% ended up catching it. And if it spread that easily 87%!! imagined how those people can then go to the grocery store and touch fruit and carts, or touch the tithe bowl... And it spreads so readily. 

On the hub club level, it's filled with gray hair, oxygen tanks and walkers. I swear it's a time bomb ready to go off with an outbreak. 

Average age of all those attending the March 10th choir practice was 69 years of age.  And the three that were hospitalized had 2 or more underlying conditions.

Considering what we know today and your bolded statement above it’s pretty obvious which highest risk  group we need to protect the most and which ones that don’t.

 

Rick

Edited May 14, 2020 by FirefightnRick

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

14 minutes ago, FirefightnRick said:

Average age of all those attending the March 10th choir practice was 69 years of age.  And the three that were hospitalized had 2 or more underlying conditions.

Considering what we know today and your bolded statement above it’s pretty obvious which highest risk  group we need to protect the most and which ones that don’t.

 

Rick

Cool - "everything on the table" mean to not let the elderly attend (maybe we can be lucky enough for them to show up and protest with AR-15s!). Age is what you consider the tale tell of people who will die. Age is the 'pre-existing condition.' That's a fine take - you can have that. It isn't accurate though. 

Another note (not that it seems to matter) - the largest hospital chain here in Dallas is doing serology on all operative patients in advance of surgery. So far the non-symptomatic infection rate is 1.4%! That is a huge number. If you have 500 on the hub club, you may have 7 spreaders on the floor that have no idea they have it at all -- or they are not showing any signs yet. They will potentially spreading to 300+ people on a given game. That's a pretty hot take to not care. It transmits from non-symptomatic carriers - which is why different that a flu or cold. 
 

Edited May 14, 2020 by SteaminWillieBeamin
..

[FirefightnRick]

10 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Age is what you consider the tale tell of people who will die. Age is the 'pre-existing condition.' That's a fine take - you can have that. It isn't accurate though. . 
 

Yup, age and a compromised immune system due to an underlying health condition.

 

Rick

[C Rod]

Sports Illustrated article hot off the press:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/college/2020/05/14/college-football-2020-season-ncaa-future

 

[UNTLifer]

14 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Cool - "everything on the table" mean to not let the elderly attend (maybe we can be lucky enough for them to show up and protest with AR-15s!). Age is what you consider the tale tell of people who will die. Age is the 'pre-existing condition.' That's a fine take - you can have that. It isn't accurate though. 

Another note (not that it seems to matter) - the largest hospital chain here in Dallas is doing serology on all operative patients in advance of surgery. So far the non-symptomatic infection rate is 1.4%! That is a huge number. If you have 500 on the hub club, you may have 7 spreaders on the floor that have no idea they have it at all -- or they are not showing any signs yet. They will potentially spreading to 300+ people on a given game. That's a pretty hot take to not care. It transmits from non-symptomatic carriers - which is why different that a flu or cold. 
 

Good to see you back on here.  Thought you would be interested to know what has been happening at our little country hospital.

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/appalachian-emergency-room-ferret-bite/n36904

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

 UNTLifer, MD. 

[UNTLifer]

6 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

 UNTLifer, MD. 

That's me.  Thanks for recognizing that.  Do you also work in the medical field?

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

45 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

That's me.  Thanks for recognizing that.  Do you also work in the medical field?

I am a Miami Shark QB. 

[Arkstfan]

On 5/11/2020 at 7:08 PM, SlimSlamSlum said:

As a school teacher, I am sure that the place I am most likely to be exposed to any illness is in my classroom, and I will gladly go back there five days a week next year. Going into Apogee six times will be an easy call.

As far as vaccines go, I get a flu shot every year and will continue to despite the fact that it is usually about 25% effective it seems. A few years after the corona vaccine is available, if no one has grown an third nipple or anything, I'll consider it. 

On another note, in my twenty two years teaching the only lock down we ever had was because someone let a dog into the building.

Never had to close for the flu? Every year several Arkansas districts will close for a few days or a week because so many kids and teachers are getting sick. 

[Arkstfan]

All the shutdown stuff, masks, etc., aren’t to prevent anyone from ever getting it just trying to spread it out to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. The only deaths it’s designed to prevent is deaths caused by lack of treatment resources. Otherwise it’s just spreading out the inevitable deaths. 
 

The problem for athletics is that it seems to rip through communal living spaces. The time spent in dorms, cafeterias, weight rooms, locker rooms on busses or airplanes is problematic. 
 

Five of the sailors on the aircraft carrier have had second infections. If antibodies are only partially effective in preventing reinfection this could be a real bear. 

[97and03]

5 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

All the shutdown stuff, masks, etc., aren’t to prevent anyone from ever getting it just trying to spread it out to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. The only deaths it’s designed to prevent is deaths caused by lack of treatment resources. Otherwise it’s just spreading out the inevitable deaths. 
 

The problem for athletics is that it seems to rip through communal living spaces. The time spent in dorms, cafeterias, weight rooms, locker rooms on busses or airplanes is problematic. 
 

Five of the sailors on the aircraft carrier have had second infections. If antibodies are only partially effective in preventing reinfection this could be a real bear. 

College dorms are like cruise ships and are excellent disease spreaders. As are college kids. 
The reinfection stats are still such an unknown and China would be our best source of info but it just isn’t reliable. I do think it is telling that Wuhan has a new (small) outbreak cluster after not having any cases for a month. Points to possible reinfection or that the virus has been making the rounds through asymptomatic people. I have not had a chance to fully read up on that yet. 
I will disagree slightly with one thing you mention about the purpose of lockdowns is to spread out inevitable deaths. I think that is true when you have already lost control like in northern Italy or some parts of the US. On the other hand, Vietnam acted early and still doesn’t have a death and only a few hundred cases despite sharing a border with China and having early cases because they acted decisively before it was a crisis. Singapore has early success with this also. 

[FirefightnRick]

8 hours ago, 97and03 said:

College dorms are like cruise ships and are excellent disease spreaders. As are college kids. 
The reinfection stats are still such an unknown and China would be our best source of info but it just isn’t reliable. I do think it is telling that Wuhan has a new (small) outbreak cluster after not having any cases for a month. Points to possible reinfection or that the virus has been making the rounds through asymptomatic people. I have not had a chance to fully read up on that yet. 
I will disagree slightly with one thing you mention about the purpose of lockdowns is to spread out inevitable deaths. I think that is true when you have already lost control like in northern Italy or some parts of the US. On the other hand, Vietnam acted early and still doesn’t have a death and only a few hundred cases despite sharing a border with China and having early cases because they acted decisively before it was a crisis. Singapore has early success with this also. 

College Age kids are among the least at risk group to fall ill.  

[97and03]

49 minutes ago, FirefightnRick said:

College Age kids are among the least at risk group to fall ill.  

And what that have to do with spreading the virus? Do you really not understand that these are separate issues? 
They can easily transmit it to their less resistant family members or friends without ever developing any symptoms. 
 

Edited May 16, 2020 by 97and03