Oregon Gov cancels sportz thru Sept

Hunter Green · May 12, 2020

1 hour ago, greenminer said:

Difference is, we're in a pandemic. Knowingly exposing your employees or fans with this extra risk (whether you believe "extra' at all doesn't matter) presents humongous legal implications.

THEN DON"T GO!!

Hunter Green · May 12, 2020

On 5/7/2020 at 4:19 PM, Coach Andy Mac said:

Then let them forfeit those games.

Let's play ball!

TheColonyEagle · May 12, 2020

1 hour ago, greenminer said:

Is that my plot in life? The second I become financially at peace, that people will automatically assume I can't empathize?

I don't want him to empathize, I want him to be a scientist (which he's quick to tell us he is) and use the data.

For example, Rand Paul was absolutely right today....there's no data that would suggest that we should not have school in the fall.

Death rates in New York, the hot spot of the country, the worst hit by a mile, and evidently a state we have to use as the example for the rest of the country, has a death rate of people aged 0-18 of virtually ZERO...death rate of aged 18-49 (maybe 18-59...going on memory here) of 10 deaths per 100,000.

Why in the hell would we close schools for those numbers? Why would we close anything based on that data?

He doesn't have to have empathy....just read numbers. But I have to wonder....if his pay check was on the line...would he have the same conclusions?

Use data...not emotions

Edited May 12, 2020 by TheColonyEagle

THOR · May 12, 2020

8 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I don't know why this is so difficult....

one thing i learned in another thread is that it's basically an emotional v logical argument (based upon a users description of each side)

one side that wants to shut everything down and stay home is using emotion

one side that wants to open up and let people have choices in their lives are using logic

i'm sure i'm wrong to the experts here (i'm no expert) and just making a generalization, but it's a thought

Edited May 12, 2020 by THOR

TheColonyEagle · May 12, 2020

1 minute ago, THOR said:

one thing i learned in another thread is that it's basically an emotional v logical argument (based upon a users description of each side)

one side that wants to shut everything down and stay home is using emotion

one side that wants to open up and let people have choices in their lives are using logic

i'm sure i'm wrong and just making a generalization, but it's a thought

I think you're absolutely correct

FirefightnRick · May 13, 2020

2 hours ago, NM Green said:

This...Lectured by people still landing paychecks into their accounts monthly or bimonthly. One thing I have loved about hustling with Uber this past week is that I’m actually connecting with others who are hustling themselves or heading to work to save and protect lives. People heading to the doctor for preventative maintenance procedures, getting an elderly high risk patient home from his weekly dialysis appointment. Even picked up happy UNT or TWU students celebrating the end of finals.

Yeah, there is great need out there, all kinds. I don’t judge people for wanting to stay home and re-emerge at their pace. I don’t judge those students for celebrating and probably not social distancing at a party, they just somehow stayed focused and made it through one of the most ridiculous semesters ever. Celebrate on friends you earned it. Purpose rocks.

GMG

This is why your one of my favorite people. A working man doing what he has to do.

God bless you sir!

Rick

greenminer · May 13, 2020

2 hours ago, THOR said:

one of the beauties of the USA is that if you don't want to work/play/attend at a specific event, you don't have too. we are all free to make our own decisions and do what we want.

2 hours ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I don't know why this is so difficult....

It's not difficult to understand, but a difficult reality that politicians face (and teachers, in my experience) is that we live in a culture that wants complete control but zero responsibility.

It basically amounts to everyone wanting the rights to do what they want, but blaming (i.e. SUEING) other folks when things go wrong. In the classroom, I see families that want complete control of their kids education, but zero responsibility when they aren't succeeding within it.

We also, as I've stated before, don't have a history of making smart decisions. While COVID19 cases were doubling in March, Florida allowed citizens the very rights that we are craving right now. So what happened? Thousands congregated in FL for spring break, exercising their right to travel/move, and then went home and seeded their communities with the new(ish) virus.

greenminer · May 13, 2020

2 hours ago, THOR said:

one thing i learned in another thread is that it's basically an emotional v logical argument (based upon a users description of each side)

one side that wants to shut everything down and stay home is using emotion

one side that wants to open up and let people have choices in their lives are using logic

i'm sure i'm wrong to the experts here (i'm no expert) and just making a generalization, but it's a thought

Some people want to minimize deaths as much as possible.
Some people want to pay rent.

how's that for logic?

Edited May 13, 2020 by greenminer

TheColonyEagle · May 13, 2020

1 hour ago, greenminer said:

While COVID19 cases were doubling in March, Florida allowed citizens the very rights that we are craving right now. So what happened? Thousands congregated in FL for spring break, exercising their right to travel/move, and then went home and seeded their communities with the new(ish) virus.

I thought they were dumb too. But this is May and we have more data now. I get putting things on hold in March. For 2-3 weeks. Not 2-3 months. That was 8+ weeks ago.

greenminer · May 13, 2020

47 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I thought they were dumb too. But this is May and we have more data now. I get putting things on hold in March. For 2-3 weeks. Not 2-3 months. That was 8+ weeks ago.

We def have more data. I still have concerns (prob just me) that we aren't equipped much better than the first round, the second wave will hit, followed by more SIP guidelines, and this whole thing will carry on even longer.

I forget who said it, but back in March some health official said - sort of in passing - that if we all huddled together in strict shelter-in-place guidelines 100%, this thing would vanish in 2 weeks.

But we can't. Because we don't have convincing, complete data to get everyone on board. So we continue as a divided population, hoping for the best.

97and03 · May 13, 2020

11 hours ago, greenminer said:

Difference is, we're in a pandemic. Knowingly exposing your employees or fans with this extra risk (whether you believe "extra' at all doesn't matter) presents humongous legal implications.

And moral obligations. But some of our fans don’t understand that.

97and03 · May 13, 2020

6 hours ago, greenminer said:

We def have more data. I still have concerns (prob just me) that we aren't equipped much better than the first round, the second wave will hit, followed by more SIP guidelines, and this whole thing will carry on even longer.

I forget who said it, but back in March some health official said - sort of in passing - that if we all huddled together in strict shelter-in-place guidelines 100%, this thing would vanish in 2 weeks.

But we can't. Because we don't have convincing, complete data to get everyone on board. So we continue as a divided population, hoping for the best.

We have more data but the problem is that people are viewing the US as a monolithic entity. It isn’t bc each state has its own policies, level of health care capabilities, economic development, and population density.
So it was logic that NYC would burn first and burn hot bc of how people life there in close proximity. It is also informative to look at the data based on income levels. People with lower levels of income were generally affected more bc they often worked in jobs deemed essential. NYC cases are on the decline but cases in some rural areas - OK and ARK for example- started to rise sharply in April. These areas are less equipped to deal with this situation due to hospital closures and lack of medical care. Similarly, inland cities are seeing spikes. A recent White House report identified several locations with case surges in early May including Nashville, Amarillo, and Des Moines. Dallas County was under areas of concern due to its 7-day cases increase.
Nationally we are still around 20,000 new cases DAILY, although thankfully in decline.
But the reason we are in decline is bc of physical distancing and staying home. This decline didn’t happen naturally. And we didn’t do (and still are not doing) testing sufficiently to effectively track this thing. So many people caught this virus and didn’t know it (asymptomatic) and passed it to others who either got sick or passed it to someone else. People also spread the virus before symptoms are evident (presymptomatic).
As an example, in Ghana one factory worker infected 533 co-workers. So after the country lifted its 21 day lockdown, they went back to work only to quickly get infected. I am sure they needed to get back and earn again, but they now won’t be working any time soon and might lose their life or long-term health.
One final point (I could make several more) is that we are still learning more about the non-fatal effects of this virus. It’s a nasty bastard. The research is still emerging on this but some early indication are that a small percentage of the recovered may experience lung damage and will require long-term care. Another surprise in Europe was the number of patients that needed dialysis - strange for a respiratory disease. In this country we know how expensive healthcare is and that is another economic impact that has to be taken into account.

/Rant ended

TL;DR version: COVID is nasty so stay home if you can and be smart. You can’t earn if you are sick or dead and you can easily infect others even if seemingly healthy.

Wag Tag · May 13, 2020

It is not effecting me. When it does it is to late. Stay safe.

C Rod · May 13, 2020

2 hours ago, 97and03 said:

We have more data but the problem is that people are viewing the US as a monolithic entity. It isn’t bc each state has its own policies, level of health care capabilities, economic development, and population density.
So it was logic that NYC would burn first and burn hot bc of how people life there in close proximity. It is also informative to look at the data based on income levels. People with lower levels of income were generally affected more bc they often worked in jobs deemed essential. NYC cases are on the decline but cases in some rural areas - OK and ARK for example- started to rise sharply in April. These areas are less equipped to deal with this situation due to hospital closures and lack of medical care. Similarly, inland cities are seeing spikes. A recent White House report identified several locations with case surges in early May including Nashville, Amarillo, and Des Moines. Dallas County was under areas of concern due to its 7-day cases increase.
Nationally we are still around 20,000 new cases DAILY, although thankfully in decline.
But the reason we are in decline is bc of physical distancing and staying home. This decline didn’t happen naturally. And we didn’t do (and still are not doing) testing sufficiently to effectively track this thing. So many people caught this virus and didn’t know it (asymptomatic) and passed it to others who either got sick or passed it to someone else. People also spread the virus before symptoms are evident (presymptomatic).
As an example, in Ghana one factory worker infected 533 co-workers. So after the country lifted its 21 day lockdown, they went back to work only to quickly get infected. I am sure they needed to get back and earn again, but they now won’t be working any time soon and might lose their life or long-term health.
One final point (I could make several more) is that we are still learning more about the non-fatal effects of this virus. It’s a nasty bastard. The research is still emerging on this but some early indication are that a small percentage of the recovered may experience lung damage and will require long-term care. Another surprise in Europe was the number of patients that needed dialysis - strange for a respiratory disease. In this country we know how expensive healthcare is and that is another economic impact that has to be taken into account.

/Rant ended

TL;DR version: COVID is nasty so stay home if you can and be smart. You can’t earn if you are sick or dead and you can easily infect others even if seemingly healthy.

Exactly. Well said.

I’m going to trust the scientists, doctors, and experts during this pandemic before I ever trust the politicians.

TheColonyEagle · May 13, 2020

27 minutes ago, C Rod said:

Exactly. Well said.

I’m going to trust the scientists, doctors, and experts during this pandemic before I ever trust the politicians.

I don't know how we can trust the "experts" when their models have been overwhelmingly wrong. And before you say "yeah it's because we locked down" Then explain 2 things to me: Sweden and New York. Sweden didn't lock down and they're no worse off than any other country and NY has discovered that a majority of new cases are coming from people that are home. The point being....destroying our country is not necessarily stopping this virus.

While data shows the coronavirus is on the decline in New York, the new survey results appear to clash with Cuomo’s prior assurances that isolation can reliably prevent transmission.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuomo-says-its-shocking-most-new-coronavirus-hospitalizations-are-people-staying-home.html

One reason why the models failed is that they – just like most countries’ politicians – underestimated how millions of people spontaneously adapt to new circumstances. They only thought in terms of lockdowns vs business as usual, but failed to consider a third option: that people engage in social distancing voluntarily when they realise lives are at stake and when authorities recommend them to do so.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-we-trust-covid-modelling-more-evidence-from-sweden

If you're going to use anecdotal evidence from Ghana as a way to convince people we need to continue to shut down our country you have to use anecdotal evidence from Sweden as well.

I'm not saying we don't take the virus seriously....I'm saying the degree in which we are is excessive. My mom has pre existing conditions....I would take precautions before I went to her house and she would do the same. But let me decide how best to take care of my family.

CMJ · May 13, 2020

5 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I don't know how we can trust the "experts" when their models have been overwhelmingly wrong. And before you say "yeah it's because we locked down" Then explain 2 things to me: Sweden and New York. Sweden didn't lock down and they're no worse off than any other country and NY has discovered that a majority of new cases are coming from people that are home. The point being....destroying our country is not necessarily stopping this virus.

While data shows the coronavirus is on the decline in New York, the new survey results appear to clash with Cuomo’s prior assurances that isolation can reliably prevent transmission.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuomo-says-its-shocking-most-new-coronavirus-hospitalizations-are-people-staying-home.html

One reason why the models failed is that they – just like most countries’ politicians – underestimated how millions of people spontaneously adapt to new circumstances. They only thought in terms of lockdowns vs business as usual, but failed to consider a third option: that people engage in social distancing voluntarily when they realise lives are at stake and when authorities recommend them to do so.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-we-trust-covid-modelling-more-evidence-from-sweden

If you're going to use anecdotal evidence from Ghana as a way to convince people we need to continue to shut down our country you have to use anecdotal evidence from Sweden as well.

I'm not saying we don't take the virus seriously....I'm saying the degree in which we are is excessive. My mom has pre existing conditions....I would take precautions before I went to her house and she would do the same. But let me decide how best to take care of my family.

Sweden actually is worse off if you adjust for population. They are a very small country, so their death toll doesn't seem extreme. However, if you account that they are a nation of just over 10.2 million people, and we are one of nearly 330 million...their death toll would be roughly 111K here.

TheColonyEagle · May 13, 2020

7 minutes ago, CMJ said:

Sweden actually is worse off if you adjust for population. They are a very small country, so their death toll doesn't seem extreme. However, if you account that they are a nation of just over 10.2 million people, and we are one of nearly 330 million...their death toll would be roughly 111K here.

So then compare them to 2 countries closer to them. UK and Italy. Both have higher death rates and they totally locked down.

France, Spain, Belgium

all higher rates per capita

Edited May 13, 2020 by TheColonyEagle

CMJ · May 13, 2020

21 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

So then compare them to 2 countries closer to them. UK and Italy. Both have higher death rates and they totally locked down.

Sure, but there are a variety of reasons for that so far. First off Sweden is a fairly "empty" country in comparison to the other two...Swedes practice social distance as a normal way of life. They also aren't acting like everything is just hunky dory (despite some news reports to the contrary). I've posted before on the thread in the off topic forum, but another messageboard I frequent has a guy from Sweden he paints a picture of people there largely trying to keep separate from each other. Their economy isn't doing markedly better than ours either.

https://www.ft.com/content/93105160-dcb4-4721-9e58-a7b262cd4b6e

Not to mention, Sweden's numbers are still going up. at a decent rate while Italy and Great Britain's numbers have stabilized for now. Sweden is getting hit later. They lost 147 people today. That would be roughly 4700 here. On a single day. The US hasn't had a day anywhere close to that yet.

That also goes for Spain and Belgium. Belgium has probably been the nation with the most accurate counting for coronavirus deaths so far (practically all excess deaths are being listed as Covid-19 deaths, which they really aren't here despite claims otherwise), but if the US was counting the same way people would be losing their freaking minds.

Edited May 13, 2020 by CMJ

TheColonyEagle · May 13, 2020

We went to dinner Saturday night at a favorite restaurant of ours.

They had hand sanitizer at the door....wore masks, took us to a booth. empty booth next to us. Tables spaced out. Moved tables they weren't using inside, outside. Had a card on the table to scan on our phone for the menu. We had drinks, dinner....it was great. They were also preparing food for curbside pickup.

As we're walking out, my wife says to me: "why couldn't we just do that all along? Why force everyone to totally close?" That's a good question.

There's no science to forcing that restaurant to close. We as healthy individuals made the choice to go into a business that is taking it seriously.

I'm not saying don't take precautions...I'm saying don't make sweeping rules based on (so far) horribly flawed models. To the point of @CMJ's article....the economy is going to be hit anyway because people are worried. But being down 30% is better than 90%. And there's still no data that shows we should totally close schools in the fall. Yet our leaders are out telling everyone "get ready for home school next year!" And they have no information to base that on.

At some point you have to ask yourself is the motivation really to save lives? Because we were perfectly safe to go into that place of business based on the science and data we have from this virus.

Edited May 13, 2020 by TheColonyEagle

97and03 · May 13, 2020

2 minutes ago, CMJ said:

Sweden actually is worse off if you adjust for population. They are a very small country, so their death toll doesn't seem extreme. However, if you account that they are a nation of just over 10.2 million people, and we are one of nearly 330 million...their death toll would be roughly 111K here.

Sweden’s story is a mixed bag. They had some success with their approach but also some regrets. They did just completely open up. They did close schools for those over 16 and large gatherings are not allowed. They also took measures and tested early, something other EU counties and the US did not do.
Also Swedes largely followed government guidelines. The article excerpts below quotes the Swedes saying that the reason they took that approach is bc of their citizens’ high faith and trust in government. Does that sound applicable to the United States?

They are also getting hit economically but have a very strong social welfare system - and we do not.
————————————

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/05/12/swedens-coronavirus-strategy-is-not-what-it-seems/

Sweden’s coronavirus death rate per million citizens is higher than that of the United States, and its coronavirus death toll is considerably higher than its Nordic neighbors, which all enforced measures that were stricter than what Sweden imposed.

“Our biggest failure has been for our elderly population,” Olofsdotter acknowledged.

But there are apparent successes, too. In a Friday briefing with journalists, Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, said the country has been “very much alert and saw cases very early on,” enabling a degree of control over transmissions. Countries to Sweden’s south suffered, he said, “partly because they didn’t see the slow beginning of the epidemic” and started “testing too late.”
A key distinction for Sweden is that its government believed it didn’t need to enforce guidelines regarding social distancing on a population that would heed the advice of the country’s independent public agencies. According to polling data, Swedes have a high level of trust in the country’s public institutions.

Indeed, Sweden’s strategy was not crafted with economic imperatives in mind. The country’s economy is heavily dependent on now-snarled global supply chains and is projected to suffer somewhere between a 6 to 7 percent hit to its gross domestic product this year — approximately on par with the United States and Germany. Unemployment could reach 10 percent by the summer, a strikingly high figure in Scandinavia.

But Sweden benefits from a robust welfare state that the government has only sought to boost during the pandemic, including an initiative to fast-track sick pay to ensure those with symptoms don’t possibly spread the virus.

“The most important thing is that if people feel sick, they should stay at home,” said Olofsdotter. “It shouldn’t be an economic issue that you go to work no matter what.”

FirefightnRick · May 13, 2020

1 hour ago, C Rod said:

Exactly. Well said.

I’m going to trust the scientists, doctors, and experts during this pandemic before I ever trust the politicians.

Yup...trust the experts like Anthony Fauci-

Newsmax Jan 21

“This is not a major threat for the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States should be worries about”

CBS March 8, ‘20

“Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks” “there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask,....it’s not providing the protection that people think that it is”

May 12th ‘20

“Some sort of mask like facial covering I think for the time being, should be a very regular part of how we prevent the spread of infection”..

After saying it’s fine to have sex with people you meet online..he stated On April 7, 2020 in an interview in the Wall Street Journal

“I don’t think we should ever shake hands ever again, to be honest with you. Not only would it be good to prevent corona virus disease, it probably would decrease instances of influenza dramatically in this country.

THOR · May 13, 2020

although i agree with you about not always trusting the experts, specifically fauci here, at least he seems to have an open mind about adjusting and changing his outlooks. many on here have ZERO desire to change their original thoughts/beliefs or ever admit they were wrong about something. i find that more disturbing.

97and03 · May 13, 2020

Imagine someone constantly evaluating an evolving dangerous situation and adjusting their thinking based upon the facts on the as they appear.

If I need first aid or a fire extinguished I am going to call the fire department not my carpenter.

And the reason the guidelines on mask use changed was because wearing a mask does little to protect a recipient wearing a mask. The point is for infected people to wear the mask to keep the virus from being exhaled. Before the virus was widespread they advised against masks for the general public because there were massive shortages for healthcare practitioners and they didn’t want to exacerbate that problem. Now so many people are unknowing carriers that we need to protect the general public from each other.

Wag Tag · May 13, 2020

1 hour ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I don't know how we can trust the "experts" when their models have been overwhelmingly wrong. And before you say "yeah it's because we locked down" Then explain 2 things to me: Sweden and New York. Sweden didn't lock down and they're no worse off than any other country and NY has discovered that a majority of new cases are coming from people that are home. The point being....destroying our country is not necessarily stopping this virus.

While data shows the coronavirus is on the decline in New York, the new survey results appear to clash with Cuomo’s prior assurances that isolation can reliably prevent transmission.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuomo-says-its-shocking-most-new-coronavirus-hospitalizations-are-people-staying-home.html

One reason why the models failed is that they – just like most countries’ politicians – underestimated how millions of people spontaneously adapt to new circumstances. They only thought in terms of lockdowns vs business as usual, but failed to consider a third option: that people engage in social distancing voluntarily when they realise lives are at stake and when authorities recommend them to do so.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-we-trust-covid-modelling-more-evidence-from-sweden

If you're going to use anecdotal evidence from Ghana as a way to convince people we need to continue to shut down our country you have to use anecdotal evidence from Sweden as well.

I'm not saying we don't take the virus seriously....I'm saying the degree in which we are is excessive. My mom has pre existing conditions....I would take precautions before I went to her house and she would do the same. But let me decide how best to take care of my family.

Because most scientists error on the side of caution. Politicians politic.

FirefightnRick · May 13, 2020

20 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

Imagine someone constantly evaluating an evolving dangerous situation and adjusting their thinking based upon the facts on the as they appear.

If I need first aid or a fire extinguished I am going to call the fire department not my carpenter.

And the reason the guidelines on mask use changed was because wearing a mask does little to protect a recipient wearing a mask. The point is for infected people to wear the mask to keep the virus from being exhaled. Before the virus was widespread they advised against masks for the general public because there were massive shortages for healthcare practitioners and they didn’t want to exacerbate that problem. Now so many people are unknowing carriers that we need to protect the general public from each other.

Nothing wrong with evaluating something dangerous but Fauci’s evaluations are being used to make critical decisions for a nation based on factors that affect a tiny area(New York/New Jersey), and he’s been very wrong many times. He should be dismissed.

Rick