New York Sub Hub Not Giving In

Cerebus · July 1, 2019

On 6/30/2019 at 10:29 AM, FirefightnRick said:

State Club

The Tomato

The Texas Pickup,

Who else?

University had nothing to do with any of those closing. Fires and inability to survive when someone bought the building they were leasing is what did them in. People like to wail and moan about losing them, but at least one of them did re-open in a new location and guess what, everyone wailing and moaning about them closing down didn't go support the business and they closed.

Opening shop near a large university has a lot of positives, and some major threats. It's like buying a house near a huge undeveloped green space. You can enjoy that green space, but the risk is any developer could come in, tear down that green space you like looking at, and throw up things you don't want to be near. If you open up a business next to a university, you get the incredible benefit of having all the traffic from that university, but you run the risk of eminent domain.

The law in Texas is clear. There is no other possible outcome except selling, you can try and public pressure them into giving you more, but you run the risk of them deciding to low ball the initial offer. And the case law is clear, those places are going to get bought by the university under eminent domain. I am not a huge fan of Eminent Domain, but you don't get any more "public good" than public education. That business got to enjoy the positive side of being near a major university for decades, now they are having to experience the negative side.

This might have been delayed because the University asked the State to allow them to bond out several more buildings this last session. NT is desperately short of classroom space and of lab space for research and to teach classes in. For whatever reason, the State Leg. decided to turn them down.

If you haven't seen the old Sack n Save building it was completely remolded. Several departments were moved in, and their old space is being used for classroom space and other spaces needs the university has. I assume that is what will happen here, new space will be cleared up so that space in the center of the institution can be used to teach and research.

Travis · July 1, 2019

6 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Sucks for Subhub.

They were alright, but far from any kind of ‘institution’ (I spent way more $ at Cool Beans & Tomato while I was there), but in the end, our degrees say North Texas on them, so we need to root for what’s best for our Alma Mater because it should ideally add more value (be it big or small) to our diplomas.

I love UNT as much as the next guy and will always identify with the university. But, having my family work at that place (grandfather, grandmother, aunts, sister, spouse, and myself), a father who was one of the Assistant Vice Presidents, I worked there for 5 years, I have two degrees from there, my family has a combined 9 degrees from there... I can say confidently that I will not always root for our Alma Mater because our Alma Mater has done and will do some shady shit. The things they will do for what they think is best for the university is not always right. I will like to go with my conscious and back the things I think are right despite it being a part of my identity. Unfortunately, my inside knowledge of some haven't always made me the happiest. Politics, image, and protectionism can sometimes be too important than doing the right thing.

CaribbeanGreen · July 1, 2019

Agree with @Cerebus, and while I dug all those places FFR mentioned (I hit the Pickup at least twice a week), every time I'm up on campus these days I'm amazed at all the cool new food options all over the place. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like there are waaaaaay more options today and an infinitely better food scene than there was when I was kicking around in the late 90s.... I feel like maybe it's not that "Denton has gone corporate and soulless and i have to go to the other side of town to eat," and more "I miss MY specific slice of nostalgia" here.... which is understandable, I just feel like it's a pretty solid scene up there with a ton of character. Like, more places than I have the time to try.

Edited July 1, 2019 by CaribbeanGreen

Matt from A700 · July 1, 2019

7 hours ago, MrStrange18 said:

Yeah... I think its time for them to let it go and move on. It sucks and all, but lets root for the University here. I trust that the expansion planned will be better for UNT and Denton in the long run

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UNTLifer · July 1, 2019

My issue is that NY Sub has known this was coming for years and years and just sat there. This will be good, free publicity for them and they will eventually move and be fine if everyone that is whining about this goes and supports the new location. Honestly, I would rather see UNT give NY Sub the spot that the stand alone Starbuck's is slated for.

Matt from A700 · July 1, 2019

1 hour ago, Cerebus said:

University had nothing to do with any of those closing. Fires and inability to survive when someone bought the building they were leasing is what did them in.   People like to wail and moan about losing them, but at least one of them did re-open in a new location and guess what, everyone wailing and moaning about them closing down didn't go support the business and they closed.

Opening shop near a large university has a lot of positives, and some major threats. It's like buying a house near a huge undeveloped green space. You can enjoy that green space, but the risk is any developer could come in, tear down that green space you like looking at, and throw up things you don't want to be near. If you open up a business next to a university, you get the incredible benefit of having all the traffic from that university, but you run the risk of eminent domain.

The law in Texas is clear. There is no other possible outcome except selling, you can try and public pressure them into giving you more, but you run the risk of them deciding to low ball the initial offer. And the case law is clear, those places are going to get bought by the university under eminent domain.   I am not a huge fan of Eminent Domain, but you don't get any more "public good" than public education. That business got to enjoy the positive side of being near a major university for decades, now they are having to experience the negative side.

This might have been delayed because the University asked the State to allow them to bond out several more buildings this last session. NT is desperately short of classroom space and of lab space for research and to teach classes in. For whatever reason, the State Leg. decided to turn them down.

If you haven't seen the old Sack n Save building it was completely remolded.   Several departments were moved in, and their old space is being used for classroom space and other spaces needs the university has. I assume that is what will happen here, new space will be cleared up so that space in the center of the institution can be used to teach and research.

What is going in at former shopping center on Avenue C?

Cerebus · July 1, 2019

1 hour ago, Matt from A700 said:

What is going in at former shopping center on Avenue C?

Honestly I am not 100% sure. I think the university wanted to buy that property, but the developer wanted more than it could afford. It is also a very large piece of property and it seems the school decided it could not afford the price that would likely come out of eminent domain process.

I have been told that the developer wanted to build space that the school could lease from them on a long term deal, but that they also wanted to lease to businesses that the school didn't want to be associated with, such as bars. If you haven't seen that area in a while, it's a huge empty bull dozed lot. It's not making anyone money right now.

FirefightnRick · July 1, 2019

3 hours ago, Cerebus said:

University had nothing to do with any of those closing.

And I never claimed it did.

I’m simply stating it sucks every time we lose another local traditional college eatery. Most college towns have them and embrace them. There’s even a show on the Big 10 Network dedicated to them.

But in Denton every one of my favs are gone...and it sucks.

Rick

Christopher Walker · July 2, 2019

On 7/1/2019 at 9:56 AM, Harry said:

I am certain UNT Gabe them this option.

Why would you be certain of that? All of the eateries within the Union are operated by UNT Dining Services, even the chain spots like the Jamba Juice, Whichwich, Chik-fil-A, Burger King, Taco Bueno, Fuzzy's, and Starbucks.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Christopher Walker

peanuts104 · July 2, 2019

20 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Honestly I am not 100% sure. I think the university wanted to buy that property, but the developer wanted more than it could afford. It is also a very large piece of property and it seems the school decided it could not afford the price that would likely come out of eminent domain process.

I have been told that the developer wanted to build space that the school could lease from them on a long term deal, but that they also wanted to lease to businesses that the school didn't want to be associated with, such as bars. If you haven't seen that area in a while, it's a huge empty bull dozed lot. It's not making anyone money right now.

They'll make it back once they put a new trendier strip center in there, though if they want to add in bars they'll have to get city approval. I can't envision anything else going there unless they rezone it for multifamily use. Either way, the cost to hold that land right now is worth it. The smart investment is to lock UNT into long term leases on a newly built property but if UNT doesn't like how they're going to develop it then there are plenty of other people interested in that location.

meangreenlax · July 2, 2019

I’m not falling for the sob story presented by the owner/family and the SubHub faithful. All of the properties in this area were complete eyesores, and it looks like they haven’t spent a dime on maintenance or improvements in at least 20 years. The same went for Sack and Save, and the adjacent shopping center. The North Texas Blvd/I-35 junction is the front porch for the university, and it will be greatly improved with the removal of SubHub, IHOP, etc.

meangreenlax · July 2, 2019

3 hours ago, peanuts104 said:

They'll make it back once they put a new trendier strip center in there, though if they want to add in bars they'll have to get city approval. I can't envision anything else going there unless they rezone it for multifamily use. Either way, the cost to hold that land right now is worth it. The smart investment is to lock UNT into long term leases on a newly built property but if UNT doesn't like how they're going to develop it then there are plenty of other people interested in that location.

Odds are it’ll be a cookie cutter post-2010 mixed use, retail on the bottom, apartments on top type development. That’s my guess to where the highest price per square foot yield is in this development context.

peanuts104 · July 3, 2019

17 minutes ago, meangreenlax said:

Odds are it’ll be a cookie cutter post-2010 mixed use, retail on the bottom, apartments on top type development. That’s my guess to where the highest price per square foot yield is in this development context.

Maybe, not sure how many college students would pay rent high enough to justify that and I'm not sure how many not college students would want to rent that close to campus. If the zoning allows it apartments would probably do well there but mixed use retail and apartments are going to have higher rent in general just because of the added costs to build mixed use.

GreenN'walinsVet · July 3, 2019

18 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

Maybe, not sure how many college students would pay rent high enough to justify that and I'm not sure how many not college students would want to rent that close to campus. If the zoning allows it apartments would probably do well there but mixed use retail and apartments are going to have higher rent in general just because of the added costs to build mixed use.

doesn't seem to be hurting the same type of buidings on Fry Street.

peanuts104 · July 3, 2019

4 minutes ago, GreenN'walinsVet said:

doesn't seem to be hurting the same type of buidings on Fry Street.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't been on Fry Street since the early 2010s when that was all pretty new, but I thought there was only one mixed use (1st floor retail, upper stories apartments) development, which I'm pretty sure is partially subsidized as student housing. I think it's considered quasi student housing because you have to be a student in order to rent there. They have individual leases if I'm not mistaken (as in you rent your room individually, even if it's a 2 bed 2 bath apartment). I don't know if they need university permission or not to call it student housing. The apartment I lived in was the same way when I was going to school, but there were definitely students that lived there that didn't go to UNT.

meangreenlax · July 3, 2019

3 hours ago, peanuts104 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't been on Fry Street since the early 2010s when that was all pretty new, but I thought there was only one mixed use (1st floor retail, upper stories apartments) development, which I'm pretty sure is partially subsidized as student housing. I think it's considered quasi student housing because you have to be a student in order to rent there. They have individual leases if I'm not mistaken (as in you rent your room individually, even if it's a 2 bed 2 bath apartment). I don't know if they need university permission or not to call it student housing. The apartment I lived in was the same way when I was going to school, but there were definitely students that lived there that didn't go to UNT.

That complex seems to be at full occupancy. The lease spaces have some trouble outside of Chipotle and Potbelly, but they’re full up. Not subsidized at all, in fact are more expensive that comparable apartments elsewhere. None of these “student” housing complexes are actually restricted to only students. Will you be out of place if you rent there as a non student? Yes. But I know 20-somethings who have done it.

97and03 · July 3, 2019

13 minutes ago, meangreenlax said:

That complex seems to be at full occupancy. The lease spaces have some trouble outside of Chipotle and Potbelly, but they’re full up. Not subsidized at all, in fact are more expensive that comparable apartments elsewhere. None of these “student” housing complexes are actually restricted to only students. Will you be out of place if you rent there as a non student? Yes. But I know 20-somethings who have done it.

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peanuts104 · July 3, 2019

Chipotle

2 minutes ago, meangreenlax said:

That complex seems to be at full occupancy. The lease spaces have some trouble outside of Chipotle and Potbelly, but they’re full up. Not subsidized at all, in fact are more expensive that comparable apartments elsewhere. None of these “student” housing complexes are actually restricted to only students. Will you be out of place if you rent there as a non student? Yes. But I know 20-somethings who have done it.

Yeah it's a killer multifamily location so that's not surprising. If they have trouble leasing the retail long term though that indicates to me that they probably should have just done 100% apartments. Which the site across from Sub Hub would be killer multifamily land.

Pavlovs Eagle · July 4, 2019

On 7/2/2019 at 7:14 PM, peanuts104 said:

Maybe, not sure how many college students would pay rent high enough to justify that

Student Loans mon frère... They tell these kids to max out the "living expenses" portion of the loan on top of the tuition portion. Easily accessible rent money available to kids who otherwise couldn't get a 15% interest rate loan on a Ford Fiesta at the car lot, means rents are going to be unnaturally high.

GMG24 · July 6, 2019

On 7/1/2019 at 6:01 PM, Cerebus said:

Honestly I am not 100% sure. I think the university wanted to buy that property, but the developer wanted more than it could afford. It is also a very large piece of property and it seems the school decided it could not afford the price that would likely come out of eminent domain process.

I have been told that the developer wanted to build space that the school could lease from them on a long term deal, but that they also wanted to lease to businesses that the school didn't want to be associated with, such as bars. If you haven't seen that area in a while, it's a huge empty bull dozed lot. It's not making anyone money right now.

I was under the impression this whole area was going to be a new "Grand Entrance" of sorts that was a true ok I'm not on UNT's campus. Did I miss something?

Cerebus · July 7, 2019

On 7/6/2019 at 3:44 PM, GMG24 said:

I was under the impression this whole area was going to be a new "Grand Entrance" of sorts that was a true ok I'm not on UNT's campus. Did I miss something?

You're thinking of the area off the North Texas boulevard exit. Carriage Square was the very large property bordered by Ave C, Eagle, I35, and Collier.

emmitt01 · July 8, 2019

My only heartburn about what has been done to the NY Sub Hub area is the closing of Sack-n-Save.

Not that the store was ever first rate, far from it, but is was an affordable place for groceries that students in the dorms could walk to. Now where do they get a loaf of bread and peanut butter? Albertson’s 3 miles away?