North Texas to Mountain West?

[NorthTexasWeLove]

3 minutes ago, greenminer said:

Like I’ve said before, I walk into any sports apparel department and feel like the SWC is still around.  It doesn’t feel like it’s irrelevant at all.

Well, it was a regional conference within this region. Assuming you live in this region, of course you will see SMU, UH, Ark, UT, OU merch sitting in stores. UH and SMU are on a better platform than UNT so it's natural you will see their stuff. It has nothing to do with the SWC, but more to do with the current alignment. And for decades UNT had horrible merchandising licensure, but is improving. 

[greenminer]

19 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Well, it was a regional conference within this region. Assuming you live in this region, of course you will see SMU, UH, Ark, UT, OU merch sitting in stores. UH and SMU are on a better platform than UNT so it's natural you will see their stuff. It has nothing to do with the SWC, but more to do with the current alignment. And for decades UNT had horrible merchandising licensure, but is improving. 

I’ve thought of that.  This is obviously shaped by my personal perception/experience.  SOO much AR stuff, but I’ve never in my life met an AR alumn.

[untjim1995]

1 hour ago, Joshdude182 said:

I don't know how many of you spend time on the C-USA board, but I do, and it's commonly pointed out that C-USA is the worst of the FBS conferences. The days of Houston and UCF are gone. Conference USA is now the Sun Belt 2.0 and the new Sun Belt is actually a higher rated conference by most analyses.

I am happy to play other Texas schools as much as anyone, but when those Texas schools are UT offspring schools (UTSA and UTEP) it just gives off a very small-time vibe and Rice just isn't committed to a winning football program. I'd much rather be in a stronger conference whose name actually commands some respect from causal fans. C-USA is a doormat conference and I know that we haven't even won it yet, which also makes us a doormat, but if we're talking about bettering our athletics programs, the Mountain West is a big step in the right direction. Away attendance is a small factor, in my opinion.

For those advocating C-USA over the Mountain West, is C-USA the conference we want to be associated with? It can be argued whether or not the Orlando Sentinel and other publications are accurate in their predictions and evaluations, but the point is, this is how our conference is perceived, and perception is extremely important. Is this the best we can hope for?

Average Orlando Sentinel Countdown Ratings Per Conference (As of 7/3/2019)

SEC    32.21
PAC-12    42.33
B1G    46.04
BIG-12    47.20
ACC    48.32

AAC    71.09
MWC    79.62
SBC    93.05
MAC    98.33
C-USA    99.64

So, the rub on CUSA west is that the other Texas teams suck ass right now, but they get people to come out because fans know who they are and they bring people to Apogee even if they suck now. This alone makes CUSA waaayyyyy better than the SBC was for us.

But that is no reason to just stay in this league if we even have a chance to move up to the MWC. That’s really the big difference between being content as a lower G5 program or moving up to being an upper G5 program. 

[NorthTexasWeLove]

5 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

So, the rub on CUSA west is that the other Texas teams suck ass right now, but they get people to come out because fans know who they are and they bring people to Apogee even if they suck now. This alone makes CUSA waaayyyyy better than the SBC was for us.

But that is no reason to just stay in this league if we even have a chance to move up to the MWC. That’s really the big difference between being content as a lower G5 program or moving up to being an upper G5 program. 

I mean, I guess. I would rather play ULL over Rice. I would rather play Arkansas State over UTEP. I would honestly rather play ULM than UTSA. Those games are all more appealing to me, the selfish fan. The idea of getting back at UTSA has already worn off right when we beat them a few times in a row. Now, it's just, meh. I mean having those Texas teams in the conference is why everyone is so giddy about CUSA, right? I just don't see it. 

[97and03]

There is no question the MWC is a much better conference, but I also think it is a question of money. Does the increase in revenue make up for the increased travel expenses? 

Edited July 3, 2019 by 97and03

[Got5onIt]

I tell you what, most of the youngsters I’m around at youth sporting events have no flipping clue what the SWC is or was. Mention Big12 or SEC and their eyes light up. The southwest conference died over 20 years ago. It means very little to any relevant current or upcoming athletes. Not trying to poke you in the eye, just giving you my opinion. 

[untjim1995]

3 hours ago, 97and03 said:

There is no question the MWC is a much better conference, but I also think it is a question of money. Does the increase in revenue make up for the increased travel expenses? 

It sure did for TCU...

[Legend500]

Just a few quick points to summarize.

1) Nobody cares about football performance when making conferences. Just ask Tulane. Or UTSA. Or Coastal Carolina. Or SJSU.
2) Academics are a little different, because money, faculty and conference standards are a thing. Just ask Tulane. Or Vandy. Or Rice. The list of top schools which haven't been poached by MWC/AAC is very small - FIU, Rice, SoMiss, UNT and UTEP.
3) Am I missing something because I'm pretty sure SDSU is a credit union?
4) If TV markets drive the next wave of realignment again (which is looking increasingly unlikely), then whosoever holds the MWC's contract at the time has to go North and Northern if they want to expand. 
5) Budgets are beginning to become more problematic for everybody. Idaho and UConn are a beginning, not an end. 
6) I remember the 2000s. After playing in a glorified colander, the number 2 reason given why we didn't have good attendance was because of our conference, and after building Apogee, the number two way of improving it was to play Texas teams. 
7) MWC would double our annual take. At the cost of sending bowling to Honolulu. We'd probably end up spending more than we'd make.

[RBP79]

I've followed NT football along time. The program is really divided by our little stint in 1AA. Before that period we were a commuter school (with an occasional outstanding football or basketball team), and after that period I feel we've moved on from being a commuter school, Thanks UTA. The apathy toward football since our return from Dll is slowly disappearing...it takes for ever and a day to build a fan base. But "Winning" does just that. When DD won all those conference championships it was a shame the AD and administration were not in place to push the programs to the next level.

Looking at what has been accomplished in the last 3 years and it seems we now have the AD and administration to move these athletic programs to the next level. Unfortunately, at the present, our affiliation with CUSA is not going to get us there. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the current CUSA administration or North Texas bales to another conference. I still feel that the potential of NT is has never been found but with the right AD and University Administration...well..maybe we got them in place now.

Just my opinion..

[MeanGreenTexan]

15 hours ago, Legend500 said:

... 
7) MWC would double our annual take. At the cost of sending bowling to Honolulu. We'd probably end up spending more than we'd make.

Oh, I bet football & even basketball would be a wash.   However, the Olympic sports would certainly cost more.

Thats the roll of the dice you gotta shoot.

TCU took the opportunity & it paid off beyond what they imagined.  Granted, they had/have the big$ boosters to cushion the risk a little more than we do. 

We cannot expect the payoff TCU got, but if we played our cards right, we may wind up in the same place as them after the next round of conference shakeups anyway.

Otherwise, we need to start a Boise St-like run in CUSA right now. 

In the eyes of national media & decision-makers, being top-tier competitive(finishing top-4 consistently) in MWC =\= top-tier competitive in CUSA.  We’d have to go beyond, to dominance.  And that’s something we haven’t been able to do, even with a Top5 all-time Mean Green player at the helm.

Its all moot though because there’s no invite.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

4 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Oh, I bet football & even basketball would be a wash.   However, the Olympic sports would certainly cost more.

Thats the roll of the dice you gotta shoot.

TCU took the opportunity & it paid off beyond what they imagined.  Granted, they had/have the big$ boosters to cushion the risk a little more than we do. 

We cannot expect the payoff TCU got, but if we played our cards right, we may wind up in the same place as them after the next round of conference shakeups anyway.

Otherwise, we need to start a Boise St-like run in CUSA right now. 

In the eyes of national media & decision-makers, being top-tier competitive(finishing top-4 consistently) in MWC =\= top-tier competitive in CUSA.  We’d have to go beyond, to dominance.  And that’s something we haven’t been able to do, even with a Top5 all-time Mean Green player at the helm.

Its all moot though because there’s no invite.

I think being in the MWC paints UNT in the same picture as SMU and UH. Being in our current position clearly puts a peg or two under those programs as far as perception goes. To note, it also puts us squarely a peg above the current Texas CUSA members. And given the ebbs and flow of the MWC vs AAC, it could put UNT above all of the G5 Texas programs for recruiting purposes. And if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. 

And there is no valid or verified invitation or even an actual legitimate rumor of one. But that's on UNT's administration to get that rumor buzzing with real conversations with the MWC office. Reach out and test the waters and see if there is some valid mutual interest there. 

[wardly]

Just an old man's opinion, but UNT might find itself in a bit of a pickle should CUSA implode. I just can't any reason why the Louisiana and Alabama schools, plus Arkansas State and So. Miss., would want to go west and join 4 or 5 Texas programs to form a regional conference. At present they are in the West Division with us, and would probably move eastward in a heartbeat. They are Southeastern programs with little in common with Texas.

[MeanMag]

1 hour ago, wardly said:

Just an old man's opinion, but UNT might find itself in a bit of a pickle should CUSA implode. I just can't any reason why the Louisiana and Alabama schools, plus Arkansas State and So. Miss., would want to go west and join 4 or 5 Texas programs to form a regional conference. At present they are in the West Division with us, and would probably move eastward in a heartbeat. They are Southeastern programs with little in common with Texas.

Would that not be recruiting suicide? Texas commands a presence whether those schools and/or fanbases like it or not. Texas schools will always have a seat at the table and likely be able to associate with whomever they want. CUSA implosion would likely occur as a result of BIG XII or some other power conference realignment.

[wardly]

Good question. Arkansas State claims that Alabama is their recruiting pasture. I doubt Southern Mississippi or any of the Alabama schools recruit well in Texas. The only schools that probably would be affected are in Louisiana. If you take existing four CUSA Texas programs, throw in Texas State and New Mexico State just to increase numbers, you are still four programs short of a 10 school conference.If given a choice, I just can't see La. Tech,ULL, Arkansas State, and Southern Mississippi moving West. Forget UL Monroe. La. Tech refuses to even play them let alone share the same conference. A few years ago they turned down invitation to Independence Bowl in Shreveport and stayed at home rather than play UL Monroe. AT 76 I hope to make it to 2023 when T.V. contracts expire and realignment occurs on a national basis. The new T.V. contracts will probably be more about individual programs than conferences.Who wants to see Kansas or Kansas State play when you can have Texas and Oklahoma. Stay tuned .

[untjim1995]

Lets assume the Big XII does not renew its GOR in 2025. If so,  its fairly apparent the Texoma 4 would go west and KU would go north to the B1G. That leaves WVU, KSU, ISU, TCU, and Baylor out to dry. If so, the AAC grabs WVU, KSU, and ISU, while the MWC adds in the Texas private duo. Assuming Temple doesn't bolt, the AAC would then look like this: UH, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, KSU, ISU, Memphis, Cincy, WVU, Temple, Navy, ECU, USF,  and UCF. The MWC would be Hawaii, SDSU, SJSU, Fresno State, Boise State, Nevada, UNLV, Utah State, AFA, Wyoming, Colorado State, UNM, TCU, and Baylor.

What would be nice is to see the SBC and CUSA finally create purely regional conferences. Make it UNT, Texas State, UTSA, UTEP, NMSU, Rice, ULL, Arkansas State, La Tech, ULM, UAB, and Troy for one grouping. Make the other conference look like this:  USA, MUTS, WKU, Ga State, Ga Southern, FIU, FAU, Charlotte, Coastal Carolina, Appy State, ODU, Marshall.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Spoke a few years ago with the creator of GMG & we agreed that LaTech was kicking our butt in recruiting when they were a member of the old WAC.

Why?  Maybe because they were separate from the rest of the conglomeration of schools that comprised the Sun Belt our favorite school was a part of?  

TCU separated itself from SMU with gaining exclusivity from them & all the other Texas schools as one reason.  Seems it paid off.  Of course, TCU having about a $2 billion (give or take) endowment at that time didn’t hurt, either.

GMG!✅

Edited July 5, 2019 by PlummMeanGreen

[UNT Texas Hooligan]

On 7/3/2019 at 12:44 PM, greenminer said:

I’ve thought of that.  This is obviously shaped by my personal perception/experience.  SOO much AR stuff, but I’ve never in my life met an AR alumn.

Come to Kansas. If they aren't KU, K-State, or Mizzou, they are Arkansas. I've never seen so many cars decked out in Arkansas stuff in my life, and that includes a full drive through Arkansas and Fayatteville.  

[Mean Green 93-98]

2 hours ago, wardly said:

Arkansas State claims that Alabama is their recruiting pasture.

That's a silly claim.  In their last class, they had zero commits from Alabama: https://247sports.com/college/arkansas-state/Season/2019-Football/Commits/

They had 5 commits from Texas.

Where did you hear this claim?

[Mean Green 93-98]

27 minutes ago, UNT Texas Hooligan said:

Come to Kansas. If they aren't KU, K-State, or Mizzou, they are Arkansas. I've never seen so many cars decked out in Arkansas stuff in my life, and that includes a full drive through Arkansas and Fayatteville.  

He did say alum.  I used to live in Arkansas, and the whole state is Hog wild, but very few of them actually attended there.

[GrayEagle]

There is no question that the Mountain West is a better conference than CUSA.  But where is the opening?  The MWC has twelve members now, which to me is the perfect amount.  If they were to consider adding us I do not know of any 13 member conferences so I would assume that someone would be leaving or that another would be added along with us.  

The weakest university attendance-wise is San Jose State and I don't really see them leaving.  I know that they would like to be in a large Texas market but only if we could get Rice or UTSA to go along with us would targeting us make any sense.

Then there is travel expenses in football, basketball, and softball that would seem to make the move prohibitive.  Without a Texas companion the nearest conference school would be New Mexico, a 9 1/2 hour drive.  The next closest would be Air Force, two hours further away.  Colorado State, Wyoming and Utah State would be the likely other division members so we're talking about nearly everyone being in the 1,000 mile plus range distance from Denton.

Every other conference with Texas teams has members east...not west.    

The only conference that makes sense at the present time is the AAC.  If we replaced Connecticut then our division would likely be SMU, Houston, Tulsa, Tulane, and Memphis.  Also, we've been in a conference with all of those teams except SMU (some briefly I know) and with Cincinnati from the other division.  I don't know of any great conflicts with the administrations of any of those universities, save SMU, and we were far less solid then than we are now.  That includes our administration, facilities, strength in all sports, academics and budget and fund raising.  I believe that both SMU and us realize that when we play we draw near capacity crowds at each venue.  

I believe that the AAC has a great commissioner with very good members and that division alliance would make even more sense than it does currently.  

 

[kingwoodgreen]

Until my youngest daughter went to arkansas two years ago, I had no idea a lot of Texas kids there. It’s actually a growing trend for many Texas grads to want to go to sec schools. So what kids don’t head to am go to arkansas, Alabama and ole miss. 

[UNT Texas Hooligan]

4 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

He did say alum.  I used to live in Arkansas, and the whole state is Hog wild, but very few of them actually attended there.

And I did say I drove through and have not spent an extended period of time in Arkansas. As I mentioned, I can only speak for Kansas which is also Hog Wild and know quite a few people that attended there. 

[LongJim]

4 hours ago, GrayEagle said:

Then there is travel expenses in football, basketball, and softball that would seem to make the move prohibitive.  Without a Texas companion the nearest conference school would be New Mexico, a 9 1/2 hour drive.  The next closest would be Air Force, two hours further away.  Colorado State, Wyoming and Utah State would be the likely other division members so we're talking about nearly everyone being in the 1,000 mile plus range distance from Denton.

Every other conference with Texas teams has members east...not west.    

The only conference that makes sense at the present time is the AAC. 

 

Testify.

[LongJim]

It seems there is often a rosy retrospective view that TCU benefited from ‘better opponents/name opponents’ in the MWC when they were there.  I maintain that:

They did not,

         The MWC sucks, and

         Nobody in Texas gives a crap about their teams, and that TCU’s time in the MWC may have resulted in a couple of conference championships, but did nothing for the program or its support, nor did it result in TCU drawing better at home. 

In fact, in my opinion, the MWC was a terrible affiliation for home attendance and opposing teams traveling fans, and TCU got the hell out of there as soon as they could. 

TCU was in the MWC from 2005 through 2011.  During that time, Amon Carter was ~45K capacity stadium except for a couple of years they were reconfiguring the stadium.  Below is the home attendance for TCU vs their MWC opponents during that timeframe.  It sucked. 

 

2005

 

Utah—25,220

New Mexico—32,251

Colorado State—36,284 (TCU is ranked #20 and is 8-1)

UNLV—28,035 (TCU is ranked #18 and is 9-1)

 

2006

 

UC Davis—25,272 (TCU is ranked #22)

BYU—32,190 (TCU ranked #17)

Wyoming—31,394

SD State—26,287

Air Force—30,767 (TCU is 9-2)

 

2007

 

Colorado State—32,807

Utah—25,391

New Mexico—28,369

UNLV—26,425

 

2008

 

SD State—30,620

BYU—36,180 (TCU is ranked #24, BYU #8)

Wyoming—30,103 (TCU ranked #15)

Air Force—32,823 (TCU ranked #14)

 

2009

 

Colorado State—31,156 (Ranked #12)

UNLV—33,541 (Ranked #8)

Utah—50,307 (TCU ranked #4.  Utah #16.  GameDay on campus.)

New Mexico—41,738 (Ranked #4.  Undefeated.)

 

2010

 

Wyoming—38,081 (Ranked #5)

BYU—40,416 (Ranked #4)

Air Force—46,085 (Ranked #4)

San Diego State—45,694 (Ranked #3.  Undefeated.)

 

2011

 

New Mexico—33,833

Colorado State—33,650 (Ranked #18)

UNLV—32,012 (Ranked #18)

 

Keep in mind that TCU drew these #’s with some of the best teams they’ve had in their entire history.  With the exception of one year, their MWC opponents drew flies to AC compared to its capacity and TCU’s proximity to the largest metropolitan area in Texas. 

Poll rankings--didn’t matter.  Winning records—didn’t matter.  They got into the B12 for two reasons, in my opinion--the B12 saw that TCU was finally serious about supporting their AD properly, and second--it gave them an entry into DFW for recruiting and alumni support purposes.

I don’t think UNT will go to the MWC if they are invited, and I hope they don’t.  It’s a bad fit.  It would bleed $ from the AD and kill recruiting of every sport in the department.  It would be conference purgatory.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by LongJim

[greenminer]

5 hours ago, GrayEagle said:

Then there is travel expenses in football, basketball, and softball that would seem to make the move prohibitive.  Without a Texas companion the nearest conference school would be New Mexico, a 9 1/2 hour drive.  The next closest would be Air Force, two hours further away.  Colorado State, Wyoming and Utah State would be the likely other division members so we're talking about nearly everyone being in the 1,000 mile plus range distance from Denton.

Every other conference with Texas teams has members east...not west.  

I think anyone that wants the MWC badly is probably arguing the increased revenue/perception would more than offset the travel costs.

I don't want it badly.  I liked it better when there was BYU/Utah/TCU.  But it's better than staying with Judy.

AAC makes more sense to me.