Where have we heard this before...

97and03 · May 7, 2019

I am going to just leave this here:

outoftown · May 7, 2019

9 hours ago, 97and03 said:

I am going to just leave this here:

Sam Ehlinger. Seriously?

UNTLifer · May 7, 2019

45 minutes ago, outoftown said:

Sam Ehlinger. Seriously?

My thoughts exactly. Plus, Justin Fields hasn't proven a thing and I have a hard time with Hurts at #5. Riley will probably work wonders with him, but the last time we saw him play significant minutes he was struggling.

SilverEagle · May 7, 2019

3 hours ago, outoftown said:

Sam Ehlinger. Seriously?

I really dislike Texas and I don't care about Ehlinger either. However.....

This is how Ehlinger finished his season. He didn't put up any video game numbers, although he did throw a 70% game, but his team won the Bowl game against Georgia...….and he did personally score three TD's

	Time	Team	Description	TEX	UGA
4	11:49	TEX	Sam Ehlinger 1 yard run (Collin Johnson 2-point pass)	28	7
2	14:53	TEX	Sam Ehlinger 9 yard run (Cameron Dicker kick)	17	0
1	10:35	TEX	Sam Ehlinger 2 yard run (Cameron Dicker kick)	7	0
	6:05	TEX	Cameron Dicker 37 yard field goal	10	0
	9:03	UGA	Brian Herrien 17 yard pass from Jake Fromm (Rodrigo Blankenship kick)	17	7
	4:37	TEX	Cameron Dicker 30 yard field goal	20	7
	10:25	UGA	Mecole Hardman 3 yard pass from Jake Fromm (Rodrigo Blankenship kick)	28	14
	0:14	UGA	D'Andre Swift 5 yard pass from Jake Fromm (Rodrigo Blankenship kick)	28	21

Edited May 7, 2019 by SilverEagle

97and03 · May 7, 2019

UNTLifer · May 8, 2019

On 5/5/2019 at 11:33 AM, SilverEagle said:

It is my humble opinion that Mason Fine was part of a once in a lifetime situation and/or system here at NT.....mainly the right coaching staff.

Mason Fine is an exceptional QB. He has a good arm. He is mobile, and he throws almost as well on the run as he does in the pocket. He is without a doubt one of the most outwardly confident QB's I've ever seen play at NT....well...besides Scott Davis. But he benefits from a system that almost looks as if it was made just for him, rather than a system that he, (like most QB's in college) had to make adjustments to function in. From my observations of him from the very beginning, his main adjustment was getting used to the speed of the college game, and then the habits/abilities of his receivers.

Mason Fine has benefited (like a lot of very successful QB's) from some exceptional receivers. Bussy and Lawrence were as much responsible for that famous "drive" against UTSA as Mason Fine. One is an exceptional athlete and the other is an exceptional overachiever.

Here are the top ten QB's as far as total passing yards as of the end of the 2017 season. I've watched every one of them, and (FWIW) if they had been put out there in the same system (the coaching and receiver corps) as Mason Fine they would have done just as well...…..especially Mitch Maher and/or Scott Davis.

Stats at the end of 2017 season.

1. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

2. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

3. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

4. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

5. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,975

6. Mason Fine, 2016-present 5,624

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3

Why at the end of the 2017 season? Fine is up to 9,417 through the end of last year.

NT93 · May 8, 2019

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 11:33 AM, SilverEagle said:

Here are the top ten QB's as far as total passing yards as of the end of the 2017 season. I've watched every one of them, and (FWIW) if they had been put out there in the same system (the coaching and receiver corps) as Mason Fine they would have done just as well...…..especially Mitch Maher and/or Scott Davis.

Stats at the end of 2017 season.

1. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

2. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

3. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

4. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

5. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,975

6. Mason Fine, 2016-present 5,624

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3

Maher and Davis were playing in what is now FCS. I have a hard time believing they are anywhere near the QB that Mason Fine is. No disrespect to either of them because they were great during their time at UNT, but they simply were not facing the same level of competition on a weekly basis.

That being said, I generally respect your opinion, so maybe you're right and I'm wrong as I didn't watch Davis or Maher very much.

SilverEagle · May 8, 2019

2 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Why at the end of the 2017 season? Fine is up to 9,417 through the end of last year.

I couldn't find the official 2018 stats.

GrandGreen · May 9, 2019

Stats at the end of 2018 season.

1. Mason Fine, 2016-present 9,757

2. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

3. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

4. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

5. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

6. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,917

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3,187

To argue that passing statistics are largely a function ot the type of offense is obviously true. However, I don't see the same issue expressed with all of Dickey's national rushing champions which were just as much a function of the offensive scheme.

I have watched all these QB's except Carlin, and I disagree strongly with the assessment that Davis or Maher could have put up Fine numbers in the current offense. That is not a knock on them, but they had neither the arm strength or close to the accuracy of Fine. They as noted also played against a lower level of competition.

SilverEagle · May 9, 2019

9 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Stats at the end of 2018 season.

1. Mason Fine, 2016-present 9,757

2. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

3. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

4. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

5. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

6. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,917

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3,187

To argue that passing statistics are largely a function ot the type of offense is obviously true. However, I don't see the same issue expressed with all of Dickey's national rushing champions which were just as much a function of the offensive scheme.

I have watched all these QB's except Carlin, and I disagree strongly with the assessment that Davis or Maher could have put up Fine numbers in the current offense. That is not a knock on them, but they had neither the arm strength or close to the accuracy of Fine. They as noted also played against a lower level of competition.

Some of the comments about our previous QB's just make me smile and shake my head. I know that there is always going to be a difference in perception when two (or more) people witness an event, but sometimes I wonder if some people were mostly distracted by visiting with friends etc when they viewed the same game and players as me.

Soott Davis (6'2' X 190lbs) was basically a fullback who could throw the ball??? I think whoever made that observation was thinking of the guy that Scott Davis beat out......Bron Beal. Bron Beal played QB in the run-every-down Lewisville football program of the 80's. He had been a walk on and had punted for the team that year. So out of frustration with how the offense was doing in 1986 Corkey suddenly sprung him and the wishbone on TCU. This caught TCU totally by surprise and we ended up winning the game. Bron Beal was an excellent wishbone QB, but Scott Davis could run the offense just as well, PLUS he had an arm like a cannon, he was very accurate, and he was supremely confident. He beat out Bron Beal by the next year...…. 1987. Scott Davis had a (to me) noticeably stronger arm than MF. He could make throws flat footed that MF has to wind up his whole body to make. In the 1990 season, Davis injured his throwing arm and was less effective throwing the ball than he had been the previous three years. He had to depend more on his running ability, which showed up in his performance against SMU, which was mostly a running game for him.

Other QB's that had a stronger arm than MF are Scott Hall, Mitch Maher, Giovanni Vizza, Steve Ramsey, Jordan Case, Joe Stevenson, Derek Thompson and Daniel Maeger.

I view Mason Fine as a very accurate and very confident/competitive QB who is operating in the ideal system for him. I think the AD/Coaching/facilities and administrative support are (for North Texas) pretty much a once in a lifetime situation that many of the aforementioned QB's could have learned to operate in.....and been just as successful. And because most of them were better runners than MF, they could have been more successful.

97and03 · May 9, 2019

Your evaluation of Fine’s arm strength is way off. He is pretty consistently praised for his arm strength. He can flat out sling the ball. Saying Thompson, Vizza, and Meager has better arms is nearly laughable.

RBP79 · May 9, 2019

All this is personal opinion. Bottom line whose on top of the stat sheet..............

MASON FINE.

All the above mentioned QB's contributed to the success of they're teams. The only concrete tangible is their numbers..IMO

Edited May 9, 2019 by RBP79
Sp

MeanGreenTexan · May 9, 2019

13 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

Your evaluation of Fine’s arm strength is way off. He is pretty consistently praised for his arm strength. He can flat out sling the ball. Saying Thompson, Vizza, and Meager has better arms is nearly laughable.

Right. How 'bout dropping a dime into Lawrence's breadbasket from over 1/2 a football field (55yds) away?

GrandGreen · May 9, 2019

9 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

Some of the comments about our previous QB's just make me smile and shake my head. I know that there is always going to be a difference in perception when two (or more) people witness an event, but sometimes I wonder if some people were mostly distracted by visiting with friends etc when they viewed the same game and players as me.

Soott Davis (6'2' X 190lbs) was basically a fullback who could throw the ball??? I think whoever made that observation was thinking of the guy that Scott Davis beat out......Bron Beal. Bron Beal played QB in the run-every-down Lewisville football program of the 80's. He had been a walk on and had punted for the team that year. So out of frustration with how the offense was doing in 1986 Corkey suddenly sprung him and the wishbone on TCU. This caught TCU totally by surprise and we ended up winning the game. Bron Beal was an excellent wishbone QB, but Scott Davis could run the offense just as well, PLUS he had an arm like a cannon, he was very accurate, and he was supremely confident. He beat out Bron Beal by the next year...…. 1987. Scott Davis had a (to me) noticeably stronger arm than MF. He could make throws flat footed that MF has to wind up his whole body to make. In the 1990 season, Davis injured his throwing arm and was less effective throwing the ball than he had been the previous three years. He had to depend more on his running ability, which showed up in his performance against SMU, which was mostly a running game for him.

Other QB's that had a stronger arm than MF are Scott Hall, Mitch Maher, Giovanni Vizza, Steve Ramsey, Jordan Case, Joe Stevenson, Derek Thompson and Daniel Maeger.

I view Mason Fine as a very accurate and very confident/competitive QB who is operating in the ideal system for him. I think the AD/Coaching/facilities and administrative support are (for North Texas) pretty much a once in a lifetime situation that many of the aforementioned QB's could have learned to operate in.....and been just as successful. And because most of them were better runners than MF, they could have been more successful.

I am not sure we watched the same games by the wide diversion in our perceptions. I really don't know how you can come up with Hall, Maher, Vizza, Case, Stevenson or Maeger having stronger arms. Not an one of them could make the sideline throws like Fine does.

Our definition of strong arms might be different. There are a lot of QB's that can throw for distance, but don't have the zip on the ball to get it into a tight spot in a game.

I also make the observation partly in jest that Davis was a fullback playing the QB position. He IMO was a much better runner than passer, but a great leader. He also was tremendous in the games against the bigs such as NT's non-declared win against the Longhorns

Believing that Fine's numbers are merely a reflection of NT's offensive schemes, and almost any QB could duplicate those numbers if given the opportunity, is very questionable. Fine has been most valuable offensive players twice before his senior year and playing in a much stronger conference, than any of the QB's you mentioned.

NorthTexasWeLove · May 9, 2019

6 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Right. How 'bout dropping a dime into Lawrence's breadbasket from over 1/2 a football field (55yds) away?

This is actually a good example of his arm strength. He didn't body throw it, used good form and threw it from a good grounded base. There are throws similar to this one where he does pat the ball and body throw it though. I think his arm strength, for his size, is outstanding. The problem with his arm strength for his size is that the NFL doesn't get a f about that. I have seen Fine throw mallards from hash to numbers in game situations before. And those are the very drills that NFL teams will have him do. If he gets in front of some scouts and throws some wobblers their notebooks will be slapped shut. I think he needs to continue to bulk up, continue to tune his skills and I truly believe he will get his shot. He needs to make a point of finding his windows from within the pocket throughout the 2019 season, much like the very next play in your posted sequence. If NFL scouts see a smaller QB consistently spinning it through designed and/or manipulated windows they will be able to look pass his height.

NorthTexasWeLove · May 9, 2019

10 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I am not sure we watched the same games by the wide diversion in our perceptions. I really don't know how you can come up with Hall, Maher, Vizza, Case, Stevenson or Maeger having stronger arms. Not an one of them could make the sideline throws like Fine does.

Our definition of strong arms might be different. There are a lot of QB's that can throw for distance, but don't have the zip on the ball to get it into a tight spot in a game.

I also make the observation partly in jest that Davis was a fullback playing the QB position. He IMO was a much better runner than passer, but a great leader. He also was tremendous in the games against the bigs such as NT's non-declared win against the Longhorns

Believing that Fine's numbers are merely a reflection of NT's offensive schemes, and almost any QB could duplicate those numbers if given the opportunity, is very questionable. Fine has been most valuable offensive players twice before his senior year and playing in a much stronger conference, than any of the QB's you mentioned.

I don't believe anyone is saying that ANY QB can come in here and duplicate. But there is a very long list of air raid QB's who had tremendous success in college and were nobodies in the NFL. Look no further than our former OC. History tells us that QBs CAN consistently have success in this system if they have the IQ and accuracy to fit the mold. Another QB might not be able to duplicate per say, but they can come in and keep providing consistency to the point of not seeing a monumental drop off. And some of that has to be attributed to the system.

SilverEagle · May 9, 2019

14 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Right. How 'bout dropping a dime into Lawrence's breadbasket from over 1/2 a football field (55yds) away?

He "chunked" it into a group of players and he hoped that Lawrence would come up with it......which he did. That was more great concentration/great catch than great throw. Shanbour made the same throw against Iowa......also to Lawrence. But he wasn't chunking it and hoping for the best.

SilverEagle · May 9, 2019

16 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

This is actually a good example of his arm strength. He didn't body throw it, used good form and threw it from a good grounded base. There are throws similar to this one where he does pat the ball and body throw it though. I think his arm strength, for his size, is outstanding. The problem with his arm strength for his size is that the NFL doesn't get a f about that. I have seen Fine throw mallards from hash to numbers in game situations before. And those are the very drills that NFL teams will have him do. If he gets in front of some scouts and throws some wobblers their notebooks will be slapped shut. I think he needs to continue to bulk up, continue to tune his skills and I truly believe he will get his shot. He needs to make a point of finding his windows from within the pocket throughout the 2019 season, much like the very next play in your posted sequence. If NFL scouts see a smaller QB consistently spinning it through designed and/or manipulated windows they will be able to look pass his height.

He used ALL of his body to make that throw....leaving the ground at the very end. Even the announcer said "he's going to chunk it down field"....not pass it, not zip it, not laser throw it...…..chunk it.

Edited May 9, 2019 by SilverEagle

MeanGreenTexan · May 9, 2019

3 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

He "chunked" it into a group of players and he hoped that Lawrence would come up with it......which he did. That was more great concentration/great catch than great throw. Shanbour made the same throw against Iowa......also to Lawrence. But he wasn't chunking it and hoping for the best.

If that ball were to have landed, it would have been at the point where the sideline met the field. That is not "chunking it and hoping for the best". That is arm strength & accuracy.

Also, I know you're a huge Shanbour fan, but your recollection is completely clouded by your fanaticism. Shanbour's throw VS Iowa was more like 21 yds (just a mere 34yds shorter than Fine's above). Great throw though!

SilverEagle · May 9, 2019

3 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

If that ball were to have landed, it would have been at the point where the sideline met the field. That is not "chunking it and hoping for the best". That is arm strength & accuracy.

Also, I know you're a huge Shanbour fan, but your recollection is completely clouded by your fanaticism. Shanbour's throw VS Iowa was more like 21 yds (just a mere 34yds shorter than Fine's above). Great throw though!

That's not the throw I'm talking about. I'm talking about the sideline throw just before that TD throw that went to Lawrence. I've tried to leave Shanbour out of this discussion, because I knew I would get pounced upon. But Shanbour is the only QB that has made the same sideline throw that Fine did in the UTSA game.

NorthTexasWeLove · May 9, 2019

17 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

He used ALL of his body to make that throw....leaving the ground at the very end. Even the announcer said "he's going to chunk it down field"....not pass it, not zip it, not laser throw it...…..chunk it.

I have seen him thrust his body forward to the point of almost falling over due to the torque of his throw. His body was upright and he followed through on that throw. It looked more natural than some of his other downfield throws.

MeanGreenTexan · May 9, 2019

8 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

That's not the throw I'm talking about. I'm talking about the sideline throw just before that TD throw that went to Lawrence. I've tried to leave Shanbour out of this discussion, because I knew I would get pounced upon. But Shanbour is the only QB that has made the same sideline throw that Fine did in the UTSA game.

You're maybe thinking of another game or something. There's no mention of any long throw for Shanbour in that game here.

GrandGreen · May 9, 2019

43 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

I don't believe anyone is saying that ANY QB can come in here and duplicate. But there is a very long list of air raid QB's who had tremendous success in college and were nobodies in the NFL. Look no further than our former OC. History tells us that QBs CAN consistently have success in this system if they have the IQ and accuracy to fit the mold. Another QB might not be able to duplicate per say, but they can come in and keep providing consistency to the point of not seeing a monumental drop off. And some of that has to be attributed to the system.

What is pro success to do with anything we are debating?

Likewise, no QB is going to have big numbers passing if he is not part of a team that passes a lot.

Silver is insinuating that Fine's numbers are a product of the system, and a myriad of QB's would have the same success as Fine.

I just think it is ridiculous to assume that just any successful NT QB could play on this team and win two OPOY awards in a 14 team conference.

NorthTexasWeLove · May 9, 2019

7 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

What is pro success to do with anything we are debating?

Likewise, no QB is going to have big numbers passing if he is not part of a team that passes a lot.

Silver is insinuating that Fine's numbers are a product of the system, and a myriad of QB's would have the same success as Fine.

I just think it is ridiculous to assume that just any successful NT QB could play on this team and win two OPOY awards in a 14 team conference.

Pro success means that less than stellar QBs come in and put up numbers, bigger numbers than Fine, and they're just college talented and talented via the system.

A myriad of other QB's HAVE put up big numbers in this system.

No one is saying that Joe Blow QB off the street can come in and win 2 OPOY awards.

But people are saying that given the system, the history of the system, a capable QB can slide in and put up decent, winning football numbers.

SilverEagle · May 9, 2019

48 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

You're maybe thinking of another game or something. There's no mention of any long throw for Shanbour in that game here.

I believe the play that I have in mind is at the 4:46 point of this video

It was a perfect (hit Lawrence right in the chest) and almost effortless throw. No heaving or chunking.

Edited May 9, 2019 by SilverEagle