Climate chage report

GTWT · December 9, 2018

42 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

In the first passage, figurative language is being used. The Lord is depicted as speaking to angelic beings even though it was the Babylonian army that God used as His agent to destroy Jerusalem. He did not verbally command the army in His word; God used them providentially. There were of course no crimes that God committed--He gave life, and He alone has the right to take it again.

I never said that God did something unintentionally. The point with my "collateral damage" comment, which I tried to point out from the beginning was not worded as well I would like, is that the focus of God's judgment was not on the children. But sometimes children suffer for the sins of their parents. Recall that God was pleased when Nineveh's repentance allowed innocent children likewise to be spared: "And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?" (Jonah 4:11).

God, being omnipotent & omniscient, was responsible for the children killed by His agents. In my universe the killing of innocent children is a moral crime, thus God a criminal. Of course, that only holds if you think the OT is the inerrant Word of God. If you view it as a collection of sayings & myths of an emergent culture in a chaotic time & place then you judge the culture and not the deity.

MeanGreenTexan · December 9, 2018

4 hours ago, GTWT said:

God, being omnipotent & omniscient, was responsible for the children killed by His agents. In my universe the killing of innocent children is a moral crime, thus God a criminal. Of course, that only holds if you think the OT is the inerrant Word of God. If you view it as a collection of sayings & myths of an emergent culture in a chaotic time & place then you judge the culture and not the deity.

It’s difficult for us to understand for sure.

What you judge as “innocent”, God sees as guilty. Unfortunately, man’s desire to be like God (Re: judge guilt/innocence by our own understanding), is what got us where we are in the 1st place.

And you’re right, it’s not up to me to expect all others to agree with me, but it is my hope. And I, as a steward of the Good News, must share it accordingly.

Mean Green 93-98 · December 9, 2018

5 hours ago, GTWT said:

God, being omnipotent & omniscient, was responsible for the children killed by His agents. In my universe the killing of innocent children is a moral crime, thus God a criminal. Of course, that only holds if you think the OT is the inerrant Word of God. If you view it as a collection of sayings & myths of an emergent culture in a chaotic time & place then you judge the culture and not the deity.

With all due respect, you don't have a universe. That belongs to Someone Else. And He knows best how to deal with a fallen world.

No greater moral crime was ever committed than the killing of His own innocent Son, and He permitted that to take place to rectify all the moral crimes that you and I and the rest of us have perpetrated on His universe.

GTWT · December 10, 2018

5 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

With all due respect, you don't have a universe. That belongs to Someone Else. And He knows best how to deal with a fallen world.

No greater moral crime was ever committed than the killing of His own innocent Son, and He permitted that to take place to rectify all the moral crimes that you and I and the rest of us have perpetrated on His universe.

God participated in the murder of His Son. He did so to redeem us for all the evil we commit. Evil He knew we would do when He created us. He could have made us better. Instead He created a breed He knew was flawed. He knew from the beginning every petty, mean, evil thing we would do. That makes Him responsible for all the evil we do. That makes Him responsible for the torture & death of the good man Jesus, His son.

Being omniscient & omnipotent has its price.

By the way, I have a 'universe', in the same sense as I have a home town or a country.

Edited December 10, 2018 by GTWT

GTWT · December 10, 2018

5 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

What you judge as “innocent”, God sees as guilty. Unfortunately, man’s desire to be like God (Re: judge guilt/innocence by our own understanding), is what got us where we are in the 1st place.

Who created us with the knowledge that we would have this would have this characteristic?

MeanGreenTexan · December 10, 2018

3 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Who created us with the knowledge that we would have this would have this characteristic?

Well, we didn’t originally.

But I’m happy, as you should be, that we’re not heartless/mindless robots!

Mean Green 93-98 · December 10, 2018

14 minutes ago, GTWT said:

He could have made us better. Instead He created a breed He knew was flawed.

No sir. He created a "breed" that He knew was "very good" at its creation (Gen. 1:31).

But to create man with the capacity to love, He had to create man with free will, and thus, He created man with the capacity to choose to do wrong, to hate, and all that goes with that.

22 minutes ago, GTWT said:

He knew from the beginning every petty, mean, evil thing we would do. That makes Him responsible for all the evil we do.

So He should destroy us as soon as we do something petty, mean, or evil?

GTWT · December 10, 2018

56 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Well, we didn’t originally.

But I’m happy, as you should be, that we’re not heartless/mindless robots!

Perhaps not robots, but we are constrained to do what our omniscient Creator knows we will do.

GTWT · December 10, 2018

47 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

No sir. He created a "breed" that He knew was "very good" at its creation (Gen. 1:31).

But to create man with the capacity to love, He had to create man with free will, and thus, He created man with the capacity to choose to do wrong, to hate, and all that goes with that.

So He should destroy us as soon as we do something petty, mean, or evil?

So you see "free will" as compatible with an omniscient God?

Mean Green 93-98 · December 10, 2018

11 minutes ago, GTWT said:

So you see "free will" as compatible with an omniscient God?

Yes.

Censored by Laurie · December 10, 2018

what's y'alls stance on whether or not the 40 days and nights of rain in an otherwise Mediterranean-semi-arid climate was simply an anomaly or the results on non-eco-friendly farming practices in the Euphrates River Valley?

GTWT · December 10, 2018

11 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

Yes.

If God absolutely knows what you're going to do, how can you do anything different?

MeanGreenTexan · December 10, 2018

15 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

what's y'alls stance on whether or not the 40 days and nights of rain in an otherwise Mediterranean-semi-arid climate was simply an anomaly or the results on non-eco-friendly farming practices in the Euphrates River Valley?

😂

Gen. 6:11-12 - "Now the Earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the Earth was filled with Greenhouse gasses. God looked on the Earth and behold, it was corrupt; for all diesel engines & coal-burning power plants had corrupted the Earth."

Mean Green 93-98 · December 10, 2018

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

If God absolutely knows what you're going to do, how can you do anything different?

That's unrelated. If I make a choice, I make a choice. Especially if God in no way compels me to make that choice.

greenminer · December 10, 2018

3 hours ago, GTWT said:

If God absolutely knows what you're going to do, how can you do anything different?

Knowledge, by itself, is not causal.

GTWT · December 10, 2018

5 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

That's unrelated. If I make a choice, I make a choice. Especially if God in no way compels me to make that choice.

You are compelled to make the choice that the omniscient God knows you will make. If you make any other then that God was mistaken & not omniscient.

Quote

Knowledge, by itself, is not causal.

Not causal, but if God is wrong about what you will do, then She's not omniscient.

Edited December 10, 2018 by GTWT

Mean Green 93-98 · December 10, 2018

40 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Not causal

Good, then we're agreed.

40 minutes ago, GTWT said:

. . . but if God is wrong about what you will do, then [He]'s not omniscient.

Who said He was wrong?

As you acknowledge, the choice is one's own ["not causal"], thus free will is true and in harmony with His omniscience.

greenminer · December 11, 2018

2 hours ago, GTWT said:

Not causal, but if God is wrong about what you will do, then She's not omniscient.

"if God is so powerful, can She create a boulder that even She can't move?"

These are both man-made logical traps that I remember hearing in school.

I would spend some time reading up on God's timelessness and His relationship to our concept(s) of time. It will help one understand how the future can be fixed because God knows all that will happen, but that does not mean He causally fixes/decides the future himself. Our actions feed His foreknowledge, not the other way around.

The Only Wise God, William Lane Craig
Boethius
Thomas Aquinus
Eleanor Stump
Brian Leftow

Edited December 11, 2018 by greenminer

GTWT · December 11, 2018

I appreciate the discussion. You've all been polite & courteous. Rather than simply repeating the same argument ad nauseum I want to simply recap my position & then be done with it:

You can have an omniscient god. You can have free will. You cannot have both. It's illogical.

Obviously, it's also possible that neither the omniscient God nor free will exist. But that's another can of worms.

Tight lines!

Censored by Laurie · December 11, 2018

https://twitter.com/TheTweetOfGod/status/1066946668858241024

Edited December 11, 2018 by Censored by Laurie

Quoner · December 11, 2018

If only Jesus and the Devil could have passive aggressively downvoted each other in secret during the temptation in the desert. Probably could have cut it down to like 10 days tops.

Censored by Laurie · December 11, 2018

15 minutes ago, Quoner said:

If only Jesus and the Devil could have passive aggressively downvoted each other in secret during the temptation in the desert. Probably could have cut it down to like 10 days tops.

ahh yes...Scott Hall 32 yard TD pass to George Marshall to beat NMSU in 2001.

Quoner · December 11, 2018

5 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

ahh yes...Scott Hall 32 yard TD pass to George Marshall to beat NMSU in 2001.

Tthere was only enough talent for one conference win but we kept the lamps burning for 5.

UNTLifer · December 11, 2018

18 hours ago, GTWT said:

I appreciate the discussion. You've all been polite & courteous. Rather than simply repeating the same argument ad nauseum I want to simply recap my position & then be done with it:

You can have an omniscient god. You can have free will. You cannot have both. It's illogical.

Obviously, it's also possible that neither the omniscient God nor free will exist. But that's another can of worms.

Tight lines!

I too appreciate your points in the discussion. I think my sticking point is your second paragraph above, "You can have an omniscient god. You can have free will. You cannot have both. It's illogical."

Being omniscient, or all knowing, doesn't mean all controlling.

GTWT · December 12, 2018

5 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Being omniscient, or all knowing, doesn't mean all controlling.

One last post on this subject then I really am stopping.

I haven't said that omniscience equates control. Omniscience equates knowledge, 100% certainty. If God knows I'm going to choose Dr. Pepper, then I will choose Dr. Pepper. If I choose Coke then God wasn't omniscient.

You're welcome to the last word.