Enough is enough, gun control is needed now

[Skipper]

“America, why won’t you protect us?” This was, quite literally, the billion-dollar question so many people asked after we allowed students to sit and wait to be slaughtered. Not just

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[LongJim]

Most people want to find a "solution" to violence.  Some believe "gun control" (whatever that is) is the answer.

Another interesting article with more specific information about how passing more legislation would be ineffective--because politicians don't really do any research, and simply parrot and "DO SOMETHING", which turns out to be the passing of more worthless laws.

http://reason.com/blog/2018/10/31/neither-capacity-nor-power-distinguishes

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by LongJim

[NorthTexan95]

11 hours ago, Skipper said:

“America, why won’t you protect us?” This was, quite literally, the billion-dollar question so many people asked after we allowed students to sit and wait to be slaughtered. Not just

View Full Article

This is such a poorly written article with weak argument and so supporting facts.  I would expect more from a college student writing for a college newspaper.  

 

[GTWT]

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 9:46 AM, LongJim said:

Most people want to find a "solution" to violence.  Some believe "gun control" (whatever that is) is the answer.

Another interesting article with more specific information about how passing more legislation would be ineffective--because politicians don't really do any research, and simply parrot and "DO SOMETHING", which turns out to be the passing of more worthless laws.

http://reason.com/blog/2018/10/31/neither-capacity-nor-power-distinguishes

 

So, let's discuss specific proposals. 

How do you feel about limits on clip capacity for semi-automatic weapons?  For the sake of discussions lets say maximum capacity should be 8 or less in both rifles & handguns.

How about banning private sales?  Make it where every sale has to go through a licensed dealer.

How about banning programs for 3D production of guns?

 

[LongJim]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

So, let's discuss specific proposals. 

How do you feel about limits on clip capacity for semi-automatic weapons?  For the sake of discussions lets say maximum capacity should be 8 or less in both rifles & handguns.

How about banning private sales?  Make it where every sale has to go through a licensed dealer.

How about banning programs for 3D production of guns?

 

I think all of those things would be ineffective at stopping an issue that at it's root has been caused by changes in our society and culture that have taken place within the last 30-35 years.  Especially the "normalization" of gun violence depicted and glorified in media and entertainment, and parents' and the public's reluctance to deal with bad actors at an early age, and in a manner that makes future behavior of this type impossible. 

These incidents don't happen because guns.  They happen because there are some mental defectives in our world who want to kill a lot of people at once.  It's insulting to me that the legislation proposed above is even under consideration, because IMO it's pointless.

[LongJim]

Very interesting article below, and some of us of a certain age remember a time when much of this was commonplace. 

The question that needs to be answered is--"What has changed?"

https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/01/gun-clubs-school-charles-c-w-cooke/

[GTWT]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:13 PM, LongJim said:

I think all of those things would be ineffective at stopping an issue that at it's root has been caused by changes in our society and culture that have taken place within the last 30-35 years.  Especially the "normalization" of gun violence depicted and glorified in media and entertainment, and parents' and the public's reluctance to deal with bad actors at an early age, and in a manner that makes future behavior of this type impossible. 

These incidents don't happen because guns.  They happen because there are some mental defectives in our world who want to kill a lot of people at once.  It's insulting to me that the legislation proposed above is even under consideration, because IMO it's pointless.

So what will you support?  Aside, that is, from banning "mental defectives".

[LongJim]

16 hours ago, GTWT said:

So what will you support?  Aside, that is, from banning "mental defectives".

No way to ban mental defectives, nor did I suggest that.  We have to recognize their existence, and determine why they are increasingly acting in a way that was not widespread in the past. 

I'm afraid it will take a couple of generations to correct much of the damage that has been done culturally.  Essentially, we have stopped caring about each other in meaningful ways, and there is no respect or consideration for each other or authority.

But a few things that would hopefully be more effective than worthless, ill-advised legislation like that mentioned above:

• Stop demonizing police, and increase their presence in high-crime areas.
• Allow teacher/administrator concealed carry on campuses nationwide.
• Eliminate cell-phone use in public schools completely.
• Increase incentives for fathers to stay in the home with the kids they father, instead of incentives for them to leave.
• Stop glorifying and pushing video games, music and entertainment that encourages killings, executions, assassination, mutilation, drug sales, cannibalism, rewarding extra points for blowing someones head off, etc.

There are a few for you off the top of my head. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by LongJim

[GTWT]

That's a start:

 

• Stop demonizing police, and increase their presence in high-crime areas.
• I agree with both.  It will help if we make sure our police are well-trained and well-adjusted.  Too often the rare bad cop deso things that taint the whole profession.  Screen prospective cops wisely, hold the police to high standards, and reward the good cops with high pay & high status.
• Allow teacher/administrator concealed carry on campuses nationwide.
• I can live with this too.  Providing that again you heavily screen those teachers who desire to be licensed, and you provide adequate training (much better than what you or I would get in a concealed carry class).  
• Eliminate cell-phone use in public schools completely.
• I can see how this would hinder team shooters (such as Columbine) but it might also make reporting of suspicious activity more difficult.  
• Increase incentives for fathers to stay in the home with the kids they father, instead of incentives for them to leave.
• Okay.  Seems like a societal benefit but I suspect the immediate effect on gun violence might be limited.
• Stop glorifying and pushing video games, music and entertainment that encourages killings, executions, assassination, mutilation, drug sales, cannibalism, rewarding extra points for blowing someones head off, etc.
• Again, it would benefit society to reduce this kind of garbage but I don't think this is the real problem.

Now, why do you think it would be "worthless" and "ill-advised" to reduce clip capacity, ban private sales, & getting 3-D blue prints off the web?

[LongJim]

3 hours ago, GTWT said:

That's a start:

 

• Stop demonizing police, and increase their presence in high-crime areas.
• I agree with both.  It will help if we make sure our police are well-trained and well-adjusted.  Too often the rare bad cop deso things that taint the whole profession.  Screen prospective cops wisely, hold the police to high standards, and reward the good cops with high pay & high status.
• Allow teacher/administrator concealed carry on campuses nationwide.
• I can live with this too.  Providing that again you heavily screen those teachers who desire to be licensed, and you provide adequate training (much better than what you or I would get in a concealed carry class).  
• Eliminate cell-phone use in public schools completely.
• I can see how this would hinder team shooters (such as Columbine) but it might also make reporting of suspicious activity more difficult.  
• Increase incentives for fathers to stay in the home with the kids they father, instead of incentives for them to leave.
• Okay.  Seems like a societal benefit but I suspect the immediate effect on gun violence might be limited.
• Stop glorifying and pushing video games, music and entertainment that encourages killings, executions, assassination, mutilation, drug sales, cannibalism, rewarding extra points for blowing someones head off, etc.
• Again, it would benefit society to reduce this kind of garbage but I don't think this is the real problem.

Now, why do you think it would be "worthless" and "ill-advised" to reduce clip capacity, ban private sales, & getting 3-D blue prints off the web?

Thanks for the reply.  I respect your opinion.  The last three items are ideas to begin changes culturally.  Frankly, I believe those do begin to address the real problem.  They speak to personal responsibility and respect for authority and others.  

And again--I'm referring to current proposed legislation, which I believe is worthless and ill-advised.  To capacity/sales/3D points, I believe they would be so ineffective as to be essentially worthless as well.  All we would have is another law that does virtually nothing to prevent these types of events.

It's pointless to ban a gun that looks scary, and then specifically exempt an essentially identical gun because it doesn't have a pistol grip--which is exactly what the bill does.  How does banning the Mini-14 Tactical and exempting the Mini-14 Ranch help?

What exactly will banning private sales solve?  And how will this be enforced?  Undercover folks, I'm assuming.  How will a sale between two brothers, or two good friends go down?  Why would that be any of the government's business?  Unenforceable.

How does one ban tens of millions of already-legal clips and guns which are being used legally?  Does possession of these items now become a crime?  If so, how does that stop a bad actor from using one he already owns?  What stops him from purchasing 3 8 shot clips legally instead of 2 10's, and then using them in the gun he purchased legally due to the exemptions within the above bill?  And then when the next shooting occurs, and about the same number of casualties occur, do we reduce the clip limit to 5?  4?  Are we trying to reduce the number of fatalities, or stop them altogether?  It just seems to me to be worthless legislation.  

Regarding 3D printing--Pandora's box is already open.  Regardless, I don't personally believe most mass shooters are going to bother with them.  But ok, for the sake of argument, let's ban them.  It's not going to stop the info from circulating the web for those that want to waste their time with it.

Let me know what you think.  I'd specifically like to know how you think those points would have stopped shootings like Pittsburgh.  I don't see where they would have had any effect at all, nor do I see that they would have any effect on any similar event in the future.

[GTWT]

29 minutes ago, LongJim said:

Thanks for the reply.  I respect your opinion.  The last three items are ideas to begin changes culturally.  Frankly, I believe those do begin to address the real problem.  They speak to personal responsibility and respect for authority and others.  

And again--I'm referring to current proposed legislation, which I believe is worthless and ill-advised.  To capacity/sales/3D points, I believe they would be so ineffective as to be essentially worthless as well.  All we would have is another law that does virtually nothing to prevent these types of events.

It's pointless to ban a gun that looks scary, and then specifically exempt an essentially identical gun because it doesn't have a pistol grip--which is exactly what the bill does.  How does banning the Mini-14 Tactical and exempting the Mini-14 Ranch help?

What exactly will banning private sales solve?  And how will this be enforced?  Undercover folks, I'm assuming.  How will a sale between two brothers, or two good friends go down?  Why would that be any of the government's business?  Unenforceable.

How does one ban tens of millions of already-legal clips and guns which are being used legally?  Does possession of these items now become a crime?  If so, how does that stop a bad actor from using one he already owns?  What stops him from purchasing 3 8 shot clips legally instead of 2 10's, and then using them in the gun he purchased legally due to the exemptions within the above bill?  And then when the next shooting occurs, and about the same number of casualties occur, do we reduce the clip limit to 5?  4?  Are we trying to reduce the number of fatalities, or stop them altogether?  It just seems to me to be worthless legislation.  

Regarding 3D printing--Pandora's box is already open.  Regardless, I don't personally believe most mass shooters are going to bother with them.  But ok, for the sake of argument, let's ban them.  It's not going to stop the info from circulating the web for those that want to waste their time with it.

Let me know what you think.  I'd specifically like to know how you think those points would have stopped shootings like Pittsburgh.  I don't see where they would have had any effect at all, nor do I see that they would have any effect on any similar event in the future.

I agree with much of what you've said.  There is already such a culture of violence in our country and so many weapons circulating that anything we do legally or culturally will have little short-term effect.  What I want to do is change our mind-set.  Change the idea that anything having to do with guns is sacrosanct.  Pass rational laws.  Enforce them as well as we can.  Given enough time our attitudes will change.  I do think clip limits are reasonable.  You don't need maxi clips to protect your home or to hunt deer.  I do think banning private sales is reasonable.  If a dealer can't sell to someone on the 'no-buy' list you shouldn't either.  As for 3D programs that's a no-brainer.

I want our country to get beyond the idea that the occasional Sandy Hook is a reasonable price to pay for unfettered gun rights.

[UNTLifer]

22 hours ago, GTWT said:

That's a start:

 

• Stop demonizing police, and increase their presence in high-crime areas.
• I agree with both.  It will help if we make sure our police are well-trained and well-adjusted.  Too often the rare bad cop deso things that taint the whole profession.  Screen prospective cops wisely, hold the police to high standards, and reward the good cops with high pay & high status.
• Allow teacher/administrator concealed carry on campuses nationwide.
• I can live with this too.  Providing that again you heavily screen those teachers who desire to be licensed, and you provide adequate training (much better than what you or I would get in a concealed carry class).  
• Eliminate cell-phone use in public schools completely.
• I can see how this would hinder team shooters (such as Columbine) but it might also make reporting of suspicious activity more difficult.  
• Increase incentives for fathers to stay in the home with the kids they father, instead of incentives for them to leave.
• Okay.  Seems like a societal benefit but I suspect the immediate effect on gun violence might be limited.
• Stop glorifying and pushing video games, music and entertainment that encourages killings, executions, assassination, mutilation, drug sales, cannibalism, rewarding extra points for blowing someones head off, etc.
• Again, it would benefit society to reduce this kind of garbage but I don't think this is the real problem.

Now, why do you think it would be "worthless" and "ill-advised" to reduce clip capacity, ban private sales, & getting 3-D blue prints off the web?

So, what do you think is the real problem?

Edited November 5, 2018 by UNTLifer

[FirefightnRick]

OMG...one more time for “those” who don’t know or have forgotten....

The ammunition storage and feeding device in a repeating firearm is a magezine..NOT a clip.

 

As for the statement below...

I agree with both.  It will help if we make sure our police are well-trained and well-adjusted.  Too often the rare bad cop deso things that taint the whole profession.  Screen prospective cops wisely, hold the police to high standards, and reward the good cops with high pay & high status

What is a ”Too often...rare bad cop”?  LOL!

Our Police are EXTREMELY well trained and adjusted.  The countless tens of thousands of tension-filled contact situations they make with the public every single day that doesn’t become the next knee jerk demand of victimhood on the news proves this.

 

Now carry on...

 

Rick

 

[UNTLifer]

15 minutes ago, FirefightnRick said:

OMG...one more time for “those” who don’t know or have forgotten....

The ammunition storage and feeding device in a repeating firearm is a magezine..NOT a clip.

 

As for the statement below...

 

 

What is a ”Too often...rare bad cop”?  LOL!

Our Police are EXTREMELY well trained and adjusted.  The countless tens of thousands of tension-filled contact situations they make with the public every single day that doesn’t become the next knee jerk demand of victimhood on the news proves this.

 

Now carry on...

 

Rick

 

Amen.  As usual, it is easy to sit on the sidelines and tell those on the front lines how to do their job.  Thank you to you, @emmitt01, @FireFightnJoey and our other first responders for doing what you do every day.

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, FirefightnRick said:

What is a ”Too often...rare bad cop”?  LOL!

 

Roy Oliver
Amber Guyger
Jeronimo Yanez
Timothy Loehmann
Sean Williams
Matt Damon in The Departed

 

[GTWT]

17 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

So, what do you think is the real problem?

As you have suggested, the problem is complex.  We have nearly 300 million people in this country & some of them are nuts.  We also have incredible availability of guns.  That's a dangerous mixture.

We'll never get rid of all the nuts.  That leaves doing what we can to reduce the availability of guns & to make the guns that are out there less deadly.

 

[Green P1]

17 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

So, what do you think is the real problem?

 

The status quo. 

[FirefightnRick]

3 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

Roy Oliver
Amber Guyger
Jeronimo Yanez
Timothy Loehmann
Sean Williams
Matt Damon in The Departed

 

Nah, those are just simply 4 bad cops and two professional liars.

 

Rick

[UNTLifer]

6 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

Roy Oliver
Amber Guyger
Jeronimo Yanez
Timothy Loehmann
Sean Williams
Matt Damon in The Departed

 

5 and 1 make believe.  How many officers are there in the U.S.?  Hmmm, seems like a very small percentage ruin it for the rest.  There is no place for officers taking advantage of their position, but let's not act like this is a widespread problem.

Edited November 6, 2018 by UNTLifer

[UNTLifer]

3 hours ago, GTWT said:

As you have suggested, the problem is complex.  We have nearly 300 million people in this country & some of them are nuts.  We also have incredible availability of guns.  That's a dangerous mixture.

We'll never get rid of all the nuts.  That leaves doing what we can to reduce the availability of guns & to make the guns that are out there less deadly.

 

I would agree.  Background checks have to be expanded.  Well, I don't think we reduce the availability, but we do to the nuts.

[FirefightnRick]

2 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

5 and 1 make believe.  How many officers are there in the U.S.?  Hmmm, seems like a very small percentage ruin it for the rest.  There is no place for officers taking advantage of their position, but let's not act like this is a widespread problem.

It depends on what is counted as law enforcement, sworn peace officer and part time law enforcement employeees,...but best estimates are around 900,000.

 

Rick

[UNTLifer]

12 hours ago, FirefightnRick said:

It depends on what is counted as law enforcement, sworn peace officer and part time law enforcement employeees,...but best estimates are around 900,000.

 

Rick

So, .000005555 are bad and give the rest a bad name.  We should be enraged.

[greenminer]

I know it's a small percentage but let's never get to the point where this is acceptable.

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

So, .000005555 are bad and give the rest a bad name.  We should be enraged.

I mean...there's like a billion muslims in the world...

[FirefightnRick]

2 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I mean...there's like a billion muslims in the world...

Yeah but only 250,000,000 are giving all the others a bad name.  

 

Rick

Edited November 6, 2018 by FirefightnRick