Is 8 Wins/Year Littrell's Ceiling Here?

GrandGreen · October 26, 2018

4 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

So, in short, we're wandering the desolate desert of college football irrelevance with no map or compass. Macro picture, nothing we do matters. Greed rules supreme.

Not sure how you get that out of my post. Winning games is what matters, that what a team controls. After a few loses, what bowl game you play in is mostly up to others.

I remember all the bellyaching after NT accepting the NO Bowl. A close game, that most could travel to and in a destination city; against a good opponent. It was just not good enough for the 9-3 NT. This was NT's fifth NO Bowl and easily the least attended.

Even the HOD bowl is not acceptable to some of NT's delusional fans.

MeanGreenTexan · October 26, 2018

9 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

Absolutely. At least that's what I believe, but hitting at least one would still be more preferable than hitting none.

What do you believe? What are your expectations?

Same question to you @MeanGreenTexan

As a Mean Green fanatic, I prefer the eyeball test and discernment. No magical measurements.
If we finished the year at 7-6 with a Bowl win, or if we finished the season at 10-3 with no bowl win, I'm willing to bet I'd think the 10-3 season is more successful based on the team's play this year & last year, and the year prior & any/all extenuating circumstances factored in.

I'm on the record this year as predicting (re: expecting) we go 13-1. We're going to miss that. Doesn't mean I think a possible 11-2 record would be a failure of a season.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 26, 2018

7 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Not sure how you get that out of my post. Winning games is what matters, that what a team controls. After a few loses, what bowl game you play in is mostly up to others.

I remember all the bellyaching after NT accepting the NO Bowl. A close game, that most could travel to and in a destination city; against a good opponent. It was just not good enough for the 9-3 NT. This was NT's fifth NO Bowl and easily the least attended.

Even the HOD bowl is not acceptable to some of NT's delusional fans.

We're playing for bowl games. But what do bowl games really mean? If not much, what does a CUSA championship really mean? If not much, why are in CUSA? Last season FAU's end all took a lot out of my sail. Very solid team with 10 straight wins with a CUSA 🏆 = bowl game vs Akron which leads to a 50-3 rout if I remember correctly. Then watching the success of UCF, which is a dream scenario for any program in the country, and the utter disrespect they receive takes more wind out of my sail. We, media propelled 'G5' schools, are just wandering around in CFB irrelevance. The apparent glass ceiling for us all is to be #10 in the country and play a 2 loss big time program just to self proclaim as national champions. I know it's a debbie downer mentality, but until it's fixed it's our reality. And I don't like that reality. I hate it in fact.

MeanGreenHoops · October 26, 2018

15 hours ago, 97and03 said:

I am pissed that we wasted the early season momentum and didn't capitalize on the hype. But in regard to when it would have been better to lose some game, I was kind of thinking I would have preferred to drop one or two early and then go on a long streak during conference. But...

The publicity we gained from the Arkansas win (coupled with "the fake out") might end up bringing more money and recognition to the university than a conference championship. For example, I would guess that nationally we received more press in the 2000s for the hype about Thomas and Cobbs than the four SBC titles.

So to back up my argument, I present the following:

PS. I can't believe that I jumped into this shit-show of a discussion...

Surprised this post hasn't gotten more comments (or maybe I shouldn't be).

Many of the arguments are black and white, but the real nuance is missed. This post hits on it as well as what @Harry said on the latest pod.

This season has done more for our football profile than McCarneys one season or any of those Dickey seasons. There has been so much good pub and then as Harry said people look at the record and think wow UNT is having a great season. Must be something good going on there. Couple that with the rest of the university support and the future looks different (potentially) than all those other successes.

Again, credit to Harry when saying the real urgency I feel is that we have a once in a lifetime QB in Fine, so each missed opportunity hurts more.

Winning conference championships and bowl games matter to the die hards but, for the program to have real growth, this season has already planted those seeds no matter what happens from here on out.

MGNation92 · October 26, 2018

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

As a Mean Green fanatic, I prefer the eyeball test and discernment. No magical measurements.
If we finished the year at 7-6 with a Bowl win, or if we finished the season at 10-3 with no bowl win, I'm willing to bet I'd think the 10-3 season is more successful based on the team's play this year & last year, and the year prior & any/all extenuating circumstances factored in.

I'm on the record this year as predicting (re: expecting) we go 13-1. We're going to miss that. Doesn't mean I think a possible 11-2 record would be a failure of a season.

I'm honestly curious how you consider my expectations as "Arbitrary" and "Magical Measurements"

If you went up to your every day CFB fan, and asked them "What would a successful season for your team look like?" I can almost guarantee every answer would include either a bowl game, an undefeated season, or a conference championship.

Are my expectations really that wild? A lot people measure success by championships.

NT93 · October 26, 2018

2 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

I'm honestly curious how you consider my expectations as "Arbitrary" and "Magical Measurements"

If you went up to your every day CFB fan, and asked them "What would a successful season for your team look like?" I can almost guarantee every answer would include either a bowl game, an undefeated season, or a conference championship.

Are my expectations really that wild? A lot people measure success by championships.

I actually think you have very measurable metrics that you use to determine success. Nothing wrong with that.

Not to speak for MGT, but I think our determination of success is more arbitrary.

This season is a perfect example. If we win the rest of our games and lose our bowl game we will be 10-3. I will consider that a successful season and you will not because we went 0-3 based on your metrics.

MeanGreenTexan · October 26, 2018

1 minute ago, MGNation92 said:

I'm honestly curious how you consider my expectations as "Arbitrary" and "Magical Measurements"

If you went up to your every day CFB fan, and asked them "What would a successful season for your team look like?" I can almost guarantee every answer would include either a bowl game, an undefeated season, or a conference championship.

Are my expectations really that wild? A lot people measure success by championships.

We've already established that you would believe a 7-6 season with a Bowl win is more successful than a 10-3 season with a bowl loss. We disagree there. That's fine.

You must have at least 1 of 3 personally-defined checkmarks ticked in order to measure success.
For me, I see past an arbitrary checklist to discern a successful season for the Mean Green.

Now, if I'm looking at some other program that I don't follow anywhere near as close, then yeah, I'd look at conference standings and bowl results & whatnot to determine their success... I have no idea what kind of expectations to have for other teams though other than preseason prognostications by sports writers & polls.

Look, if the season ended today, I'd be disappointed & call the season "failure to meet expectations". But we still have 4 more games & a bowl. My mind can change. I anticipate it will because of my expectations. I hope yours can too, even if we drop the bowl game.

untjim1995 · October 26, 2018

12 hours ago, Rudy said:

I really hope some of you are doing a bit.

Its beyond embarrassing to supposedly share our alma mater with some of these people, especially if they got actual degrees from UNT.

We finally have a great start to a season, better than anything we have seen around here in 40 years, and we have idiots bitching about how sad and disappointing it is to not go undefeated. This, three years after the worst loss in modern college football HISTORY, with a team full of quitters and not a lick of FBS talent at the most important position on the field and finishing the season as the WORST FBS program in America.

Side Show Joe · October 26, 2018

7 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

We've already established that you would believe a 7-6 season with a Bowl win is more successful than a 10-3 season with a bowl loss. We disagree there. That's fine.

You must have at least 1 of 3 personally-defined checkmarks ticked in order to measure success.
For me, I see past an arbitrary checklist to discern a successful season for the Mean Green.

Now, if I'm looking at some other program that I don't follow anywhere near as close, then yeah, I'd look at conference standings and bowl results & whatnot to determine their success... I have no idea what kind of expectations to have for other teams though other than preseason prognostications by sports writers & polls.

Look, if the season ended today, I'd be disappointed & call the season "failure to meet expectations". But we still have 4 more games & a bowl. My mind can change. I anticipate it will because of my expectations. I hope yours can too, even if we drop the bowl game.

I'm adjusting my expectations as we go. Right now, a 10 win season with a bowl victory looks about as good as we can hope for. Which in a usual season that would be outstanding.

See you tomorrow night. Go Mean Green!!!

MGNation92 · October 26, 2018

15 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

We've already established that you would believe a 7-6 season with a Bowl win is more successful than a 10-3 season with a bowl loss. We disagree there. That's fine.

You must have at least 1 of 3 personally-defined checkmarks ticked in order to measure success.
For me, I see past an arbitrary checklist to discern a successful season for the Mean Green.

Now, if I'm looking at some other program that I don't follow anywhere near as close, then yeah, I'd look at conference standings and bowl results & whatnot to determine their success... I have no idea what kind of expectations to have for other teams though other than preseason prognostications by sports writers & polls.

Look, if the season ended today, I'd be disappointed & call the season "failure to meet expectations". But we still have 4 more games & a bowl. My mind can change. I anticipate it will because of my expectations. I hope yours can too, even if we drop the bowl game.

Honestly, if we won 10 games this year, I'd consider it successful, but only because of our history. With that being said if you can win 10 games in a season, I still expect you to be able to win a freaking bowl game. Especially if it's one against a middle of the road MWC or MAC team.

MGNation92 · October 26, 2018

10 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Its beyond embarrassing to supposedly share our alma mater with some of these people, especially if they got actual degrees from UNT.

We finally have a great start to a season, better than anything we have seen around here in 40 years, and we have idiots bitching about how sad and disappointing it is to not go undefeated. This, three years after the worst loss in modern college football HISTORY, with a team full of quitters and not a lick of FBS talent at the most important position on the field and finishing the season as the WORST FBS program in America.

This thread isn't about the past failures of Rick Villarreal and our being barred from the SWC or our drop to 1-AA in 1982 so why are you even commenting?

MeanGreenTexan · October 26, 2018

Just now, MGNation92 said:

Honestly, if we won 10 games this year, I'd consider it successful, but only because of our history. With that being said if you can win 10 games in a season, I still expect you to be able to win a freaking bowl game. Especially if it's one against a middle of the road MWC or MAC team.

I suppose it boils down to who we would play. Boise St in New Mexico would be very tough & I would not consider a loss to that team a failure. Miami OH in Dallas would be very easy & I would be floored if we lost there.
Let's revisit at the end of the year to see.
It would be wild if we wound up something like 8-5 or 9-4 & our 2 viewpoints flip-flopped.

untjim1995 · October 26, 2018

Just now, MGNation92 said:

This thread isn't about the past failures of Rick Villarreal and our being barred from the SWC or our drop to 1-AA in 1982 so why are you even commenting?

Because your idiotic posts acting like this season and the progress we've made in three years isn't astronomical...

Your "expectations" you've listed above are not reasonable, no matter how much Ben Gooding thinks they are. Think about that for a minute--that is the one poster you have on your side...

MGNation92 · October 26, 2018

19 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Because your idiotic posts acting like this season and the progress we've made in three years isn't astronomical...

Your "expectations" you've listed above are not reasonable, no matter how much Ben Gooding thinks they are. Think about that for a minute--that is the one poster you have on your side...

What's that? Is that the ghost of the Southland conference I hear calling? oooo ahhhh, so scary.

I talk about expectations and the future and you bitch about the past.

What are your expectations Jim? To resurrect Hayden Fry and re-unite the SWC with new lifelong member, North Texas State University? Finally, we'll be in the same conference as the mighty SMU ponies!

Edited October 26, 2018 by MGNation92

NT93 · October 26, 2018

If we get to 10 wins it's the most successful season in the HISTORY of the program. We have NEVER won 10 games. Ever. So for me, if we get to 10 wins and lose the bowl game, I'll be disappointed in the loss, but I'll still know this team did something that's never been done at North Texas.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 26, 2018

20 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

This thread isn't about the past failures of Rick Villarreal and our being barred from the SWC or our drop to 1-AA in 1982 so why are you even commenting?

Because he's basic. He has token phrases he slings around ad nauseam. Either way, we have to be better fans and be happy damnit about our 6-0 record vs 16-26 competition and concede to the mighty Blazers of UAB.

Let's disregard what our peers are doing after shitty seasons. Not relevant, because we're lil ole UNT. Let's not mention last years 2-10 Georgia freaking Southern now being 7-1 and probably soon to be ranked under a new coaching staff. And the endless other references I could pull. We're UNT and we have to maintain futile expectations. It's who we apparently are.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 26, 2018

25 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Because your idiotic posts acting like this season and the progress we've made in three years isn't astronomical...

Your "expectations" you've listed above are not reasonable, no matter how much Ben Gooding thinks they are. Think about that for a minute--that is the one poster you have on your side...

Beating UAB and La Tech (with a record crowd on hand) in year 3 with the best team SL will probably have while at UNT are not reasonable expectations to you. Got it.

untjim1995 · October 26, 2018

54 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Beating UAB and La Tech (with a record crowd on hand) in year 3 with the best team SL will probably have while at UNT are not reasonable expectations to you. Got it.

How in the hell could anyone know if this will be his best team at UNT? If he leaves, then yes, but next year he gets another year of his players, with his QB as a senior, while adding in the best recruiting class currently in CUSA.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 26, 2018

8 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

How in the hell could anyone know if this will be his best team at UNT? If he leaves, then yes, but next year he gets another year of his players, with his QB as a senior, while adding in the best recruiting class currently in CUSA.

Becuase the schedule stiffens (@Cal, @SMU, vs Houston) and our defense next year will be closer to 2017 than 2018. Hope not, but it's looking that way.

In 2020 the schedule (@ATM, @Houston, vsSMU) will be even more difficult than 2019, and we'll be throwing out an inexperienced QB with minimal game experience.

The schedule this season with our team experience set up very well.

untjim1995 · October 26, 2018

13 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Becuase the schedule stiffens (@Cal, @SMU, vs Houston) and our defense next year will be closer to 2017 than 2018. Hope not, but it's looking that way.

In 2020 the schedule (@ATM, @Houston, vsSMU) will be even more difficult than 2019, and we'll be throwing out an inexperienced QB with minimal game experience.

The schedule this season with our team experience set up very well.

A game at SMU is basically a neutral site game for us. We should be ok for that one assuming all key parts come back healthy. At Cal will be tough because its a P5 road game two time zones away, probably at night. UH is the toss-up since its here.

Its like you basically think we cannot possibly be any better than we are right now. Talk about lowering your expectations...

NorthTexasWeLove · October 26, 2018

5 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

A game at SMU is basically a neutral site game for us. We should be ok for that one assuming all key parts come back healthy. At Cal will be tough because its a P5 road game two time zones away, probably at night. UH is the toss-up since its here.

Its like you basically think we cannot possibly be any better than we are right now. Talk about lowering your expectations...

We won't be 4-0 in OOC play under SL again. And we may be a better team next year, but our record in OOC games won't indicate that. I have high expectations, but I have realistic viewpoint of our opponents as well. I will take a loss to the bruising Blazers a lot harder than @ an improving Cal team. They are good and improving quickly. We haven't beaten SMU in Dallas since when? And Houston has better personnel than UNT. I will say it now, I'd be thrilled to get out of OOC with a 3-1 record. But 2-2 is likely. And 1-3 is not out of question. We are losing studs on defense. And we are not by any means a plug and play team, not close. So when I look at what could happen next year and in 2020 it makes this years losses that much more difficult to stomach.

FirefightnRick · October 26, 2018

Cal doesn’t scare me. They are 4-3, 1-3 in Conference and let Idaho St put 23 points on them.

They lose 11 seniors from their starting 22,....7 Of which are on offense including 3 of their starting 5 O linemen.

They’ll be led by a RS sophomore. We’ll have a senior.

It’s a long time till we get there but we have just as good a chance against them as anyone else at this point.

Rick

Edited October 26, 2018 by FirefightnRick

Censored by Laurie · October 26, 2018

southsideguy · October 26, 2018

For all of you with a short memory I invite you to vist the UTEP and UTSA boards. That was us four years ago. It all sounds so familar.

VideoEagle · October 26, 2018

49 minutes ago, southsideguy said:

For all of you with a short memory I invite you to vist the UTEP and UTSA boards. That was us four years ago. It all sounds so familar.

I don't need to visit as I still remember. I don't want to go back there anytime soon.

I wish we were 8-0, but I don't think it's terrible that we're not. First, we have a very reasonable shot at a true 10 win regular season - something we've never done before. Secondly, our win at Arkansas combined with the punt saw 'round the world, is getting us more notice than being undefeated would. We don't have to go back to 1975 to point to a signature win again. I don't care if the pigs are having a down year as NEXT year we'll still be talking about humiliating them in Fayetteville and only the people at Arkansas will know it was in a down year. As long as we aren't waiting decades for our next signature win, we'll be in great shape.

It's still green and good, just not green and perfect!