Is 8 Wins/Year Littrell's Ceiling Here?

MGNation92 · October 25, 2018

1 hour ago, MGNation92 said:

I would never do such a thing. Are my expectations realistic? Probably not. Am I disappointed when we don't do what we're capable of? Absolutely. Am I going to apologize for wanting the absolute best? Absolutely not.

If we went 7-6 every year, I'd be happy about winning bowl games, but disappointed we didn't do more.

If we went 10-4(8-0 in conference) every year, I'd be happy about winning a conference championship and a bowl game, but disappointed be didn't do more.

If we went 14-0(or more) every year, I'd be happy about going undefeated, winning a conference championship, and winning a bowl game.

My expectation is one or more of those things happen every year. Seth Littrell has done none, and while we may be "trending up", my expectations remain the same if we were 0-12 or 12-0.

53 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

This makes zero sense. I think maybe you're confusing "expectations" with "hopes".
You mean to tell me that if I dug up an old thread from 2016, the year Littrell arrived after a disasterous 1-11 year, I'd see you expected the team to win 12 games?

EDIT:
Heck, here is your expectation for THIS SEASON:

Damn well right I expect to win a bowl game after a 1-11 season. You bring a new coach in to win.

And my expectation for this season is to win a bowl game, one that I would be very happy with, but still, as I said before, disappointed, because we can do so much better.

So far Littrell is 0-2 in Bowl Games, and 0-1 in conference championship games.

Hell at least Skip Holtz wins his bowl game every year. All Littrell has done is "trend up" while wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 25, 2018

2 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Damn well right I expect to win a bowl game after a 1-11 season. You bring a new coach in to win.

And my expectation for this season is to win a bowl game, one that I would be very happy with, but still, as I said before, disappointed, because we can do so much better.

So far Littrell is 0-2 in Bowl Games, and 0-1 in conference championship games.

Hell at least Skip Holtz wins his bowl game every year. All Littrell has done is "trend up" while wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT.

don't be a fact teller. They'll come after your character like they know you. Not mgtexan, but a lot of these other cats will.

NT93 · October 25, 2018

26 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

All Littrell has done is "trend up" while wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT.

22 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

don't be a fact teller.

You do realize that his statement is an opinion?

meangreenlax · October 25, 2018

29 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

So far Littrell is 0-2 in Bowl Games, and 0-1 in conference championship games.

He gets a pass for the first one, but last year Troy just bum rushed us in the most unflattering way possible.

MGNation92 · October 25, 2018

4 minutes ago, meangreenlax said:

He gets a pass for the first one, but last year Troy just bum rushed us in the most unflattering way possible.

He gets a pass for losing to an Army team that we beat in the regular season?

MeanGreenTexan · October 25, 2018

19 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Damn well right I expect to win a bowl game after a 1-11 season. You bring a new coach in to win.

And my expectation for this season is to win a bowl game, one that I would be very happy with, but still, as I said before, disappointed, because we can do so much better.

So far Littrell is 0-2 in Bowl Games, and 0-1 in conference championship games.

Hell at least Skip Holtz wins his bowl game every year. All Littrell has done is "trend up" while wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT.

As already stated: An 11-win season is still in the cards (including your pre-requisite bowl win)... especially if the bowl is against a friggin middling-MAC team like Miami, OH as some are predicting.

Would an 11-win season be "wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT"? That would be the greatest season we've ever had, EVER.
Was a 9-win team that played for the Conference championship during Fine's SOPHOMORE YEAR be "wasting" his talent?
And who the heck knows what's going to happen next year?

And to be clear:
Are you saying we could drop the rest of our regular-season games this year, but win our bowl game VS Miami, OH for a 7-6 record (since we've already lost the ability to go 12-0 : strike 1, & lost the ability to play for the Conference championship : strike 2), and you'd be happier with that result than last year's results simply because we won the bowl game & didn't go 0-for-3 in your expectation-measuring triumvirate? Instead of, say 10-3 with a bowl loss to Boise St. in the New Mexico Bowl?

meangreen2016 · October 25, 2018

39 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

ll Littrell has done is "trend up" while wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT.

Littrell was the one who found Fine and took a chance on him..

NorthTexasWeLove · October 25, 2018

1 minute ago, meangreen2016 said:

Littrell was the one who found Fine and took a chance on him..

Is that what happened? It's been stated Littrell was tipped off to go grab him while you can. Littrell still undoubtedly gets the credit. But I think there's more to it than Littrell watching tape until his eyes were bloodshot and ran across his tape in the dying hours of the night. I think I recall someone close to that situation posting that Fine sort of fell in Littrells lap. I have no idea.

MGNation92 · October 25, 2018

4 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

As already stated: An 11-win season is still in the cards (including your pre-requisite bowl win)... especially if the bowl is against a friggin middling-MAC team like Miami, OH as some are predicting.

Would an 11-win season be "wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT"? That would be the greatest season we've ever had, EVER.
Was a 9-win team that played for the Conference championship during Fine's SOPHOMORE YEAR be "wasting" his talent?
And who the heck knows what's going to happen next year?

And to be clear:
Are you saying we could drop the rest of our regular-season games this year, but win our bowl game VS Miami, OH for a 7-6 record (since we've already lost the ability to go 12-0 : strike 1, & lost the ability to play for the Conference championship : strike 2), and you'd be happier with that result than last year's results simply because we won the bowl game & didn't go 0-for-3 in your expectation-measuring triumvirate? Instead of, say 10-3 with a bowl loss to Boise St. in the New Mexico Bowl?

Win the games that matter.I'm going to preface this by saying they all matter, but, conference games matter more, Bowl Games matter more, conference championships matter more.

So to answer your question yes. I'd take 7-6 with a bowl win, because at this point, due to conference losses(games that matter more), all we're playing for is a bowl game(game that matters more). If you go 10-3, you're 10-3 with nothing to show for it outside of some meaningless statistics. And as a great coach once said: "Stats are for losers". Win the games that matter.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 25, 2018

9 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

As already stated: An 11-win season is still in the cards (including your pre-requisite bowl win)... especially if the bowl is against a friggin middling-MAC team like Miami, OH as some are predicting.

Would an 11-win season be "wasting the greatest talent at QB to ever play for UNT"? That would be the greatest season we've ever had, EVER.
Was a 9-win team that played for the Conference championship during Fine's SOPHOMORE YEAR be "wasting" his talent?
And who the heck knows what's going to happen next year?

And to be clear:
Are you saying we could drop the rest of our regular-season games this year, but win our bowl game VS Miami, OH for a 7-6 record (since we've already lost the ability to go 12-0 : strike 1, & lost the ability to play for the Conference championship : strike 2), and you'd be happier with that result than last year's results simply because we won the bowl game & didn't go 0-for-3 in your expectation-measuring triumvirate? Instead of, say 10-3 with a bowl loss to Boise St. in the New Mexico Bowl?

UCF, in comparison, has taken advantage of the best QB they have ever had and ripped off 20 straight under two coaching staffs. And yes, Milton is better than Bortles as far as college goes.

meangreen2016 · October 25, 2018

10 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Is that what happened? It's been stated Littrell was tipped off to go grab him while you can. Littrell still undoubtedly gets the credit. But I think there's more to it than Littrell watching tape until his eyes were bloodshot and ran across his tape in the dying hours of the night. I think I recall someone close to that situation posting that Fine sort of fell in Littrells lap. I have no idea.

I think he "found him" with his close ties to the Oklahoma area coaches or something, nonetheless he still found him like every other coach finds a player. Took a chance on him when nobody else did. Following that logic, Littrell is the reason we have the greatest QB in program history.

Edited October 25, 2018 by meangreen2016

MeanGreenTexan · October 25, 2018

1 minute ago, MGNation92 said:

Win the games that matter.I'm going to preface this by saying they all matter, but, conference games matter more, Bowl Games matter more, conference championships matter more.

So to answer your question yes. I'd take 7-6 with a bowl win, because at this point, due to conference losses(games that matter more), all we're playing for is a bowl game(game that matters more). If you go 10-3, you're 10-3 with nothing to show for it outside of some meaningless statistics. And as a great coach once said: "Stats are for losers". Win the games that matter.

OK. I understand. You have some wild, arbitrary requirements for the definition of success (meeting "expectations"), but you're staying consistent, so that's good!
I think you'd have a hard time finding many in the Mean Green locker room who agree 7-6, with bowl win, > 10-3 with no bowl win. Something about "maximizing abilities".

2 minutes ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

UCF, in comparison, has taken advantage of the best QB they have ever had and ripped off 20 straight under two coaching staffs. And yes, Milton is better than Bortles as far as college goes.

I think that speaks more to the players than either coach. Especially with what we're seeing at Nebraska.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 25, 2018

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

OK. I understand. You have some wild, arbitrary requirements for the definition of success (meeting "expectations"), but you're staying consistent, so that's good!
I think you'd have a hard time finding many in the Mean Green locker room who agree 7-6, with bowl win, > 10-3 with no bowl win. Something about "maximizing abilities".

I think that speaks more to the players than either coach. Especially with what we're seeing at Nebraska.

I agree. It speaks volumes about their QB. He's an absolute gamer in the highest regard. But my point to that is that multiple staffs can take a stud QB, which is eerily similar to Fine, and keep reeling off the W's after coming off a similar 2015 season as UNT.

MGNation92 · October 25, 2018

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

OK. I understand. You have some wild, arbitrary requirements for the definition of success (meeting "expectations"), but you're staying consistent, so that's good!
I think you'd have a hard time finding many in the Mean Green locker room who agree 7-6, with bowl win, > 10-3 with no bowl win. Something about "maximizing abilities".

I think that speaks more to the players than either coach. Especially with what we're seeing at Nebraska.

By that logic I'm sure the 17-1 Patriots felt a hell of a lot better than the 14-6 Giants in 2007

MeanGreenTexan · October 25, 2018

1 minute ago, MGNation92 said:

By that logic I'm sure the 17-1 Patriots felt a hell of a lot better than the 14-6 Giants in 2007

No man. That's THE Super Bowl. Only 1, determining the champion. NCAA Bowl are everywhere.

The comparison here would be if last-year's Alabama team lost the National Title Game... and not going 14-0, or winning the SEC Conference either (Auburn won their division last year)... going 0-for-3 in your measurables.

Would that team feel more accomplished than going 10-3 with a win in the Peach Bowl?

MGNation92 · October 25, 2018

3 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

No man. That's THE Super Bowl. Only 1, determining the champion. NCAA Bowl are everywhere.

The comparison here would be if last-year's Alabama team lost the National Title Game... and not going 14-0, or winning the SEC Conference either (Auburn won their division last year)... going 0-for-3 in your measurables.

Would that team feel more accomplished than going 10-3 with a win in the Peach Bowl?

Alabama won THE National championship. Only 1, determining the champion.

Auburn did not win the conference, didn't go undefeated, and didn't win their bowl game.

One season is disappointing, one isn't.

NT93 · October 25, 2018

So everyone except Alabama didn't meet expectations last year? And Alabama didn't completely because they didn't win the division of their conference. Lucky for them their name is ALABAMA so the loss was forgiven and they got a chance at the national title. If conference championships are going to be meaningful, then you need to win yours to be able to make the CFP.

And those 2007 NY Giants were a wild card team. Maybe conference/division championships aren't as important as you're making them out to be. I could provide a long list of teams who didn't win their conference/division/district who went on to capture the ultimate prize...or at least get closer to the ultimate prize than their conference foe who won the conference.

Last year alone, you have Alabama and A&M Commerce. And that's just college football...off the top of my head.

Edited October 25, 2018 by NT93

MGNation92 · October 25, 2018

6 minutes ago, NT93 said:

So everyone except Alabama didn't meet expectations last year?

I guess you haven't read what I said.

Bowl Game. Undefeated. Conference Championship.

If a team did not do at least one of those three things, then yes I would say they didn't meet expectations.

NT93 · October 25, 2018

1 minute ago, MGNation92 said:

I guess you haven't read what I said.

Bowl Game. Undefeated. Conference Championship.

If a team did not do at least one of those three things, then yes I would say they didn't meet expectations.

So a team that hit 2 out of the 3 criteria had a more successful season than a team who only hit 1 out of 3? And hitting all 3 would be the most successful?

97and03 · October 25, 2018

I am pissed that we wasted the early season momentum and didn't capitalize on the hype. But in regard to when it would have been better to lose some game, I was kind of thinking I would have preferred to drop one or two early and then go on a long streak during conference. But...

The publicity we gained from the Arkansas win (coupled with "the fake out") might end up bringing more money and recognition to the university than a conference championship. For example, I would guess that nationally we received more press in the 2000s for the hype about Thomas and Cobbs than the four SBC titles.

So to back up my argument, I present the following:

PS. I can't believe that I jumped into this shit-show of a discussion...

GrandGreen · October 26, 2018

I really don't comprehend all this concern about a bowl win. Over half of the teams go to a bowl and obviously over one fourth of the teams get a bowl win.

I don't put much stock in beating a mediocre at best UNLV team or a loss to a clearly better Troy team. I certainly don't think McCarney was a great coach because he got a bowl win. Neither do I think Littrell's two losses mean much, one a great game despite NT's record against Army and another a thrashing by Troy.

I hope NT gets a bowl win in a good matchup, but that is unlikely. Much more likely is NT will get a game against another 40-60 ranked squad and the outcome will not be a blip on the national scene.

NorthTexasWeLove · October 26, 2018

15 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I really don't comprehend all this concern about a bowl win. Over half of the teams go to a bowl and obviously over one fourth of the teams get a bowl win.

I don't put much stock in beating a mediocre at best UNLV team or a loss to a clearly better Troy team. I certainly don't think McCarney was a great coach because he got a bowl win. Neither do I think Littrell's two losses mean much, one a great game despite NT's record against Army and another a thrashing by Troy.

I hope NT gets a bowl win in a good matchup, but that is unlikely. Much more likely is NT will get a game against another 40-60 ranked squad and the outcome will not be a blip on the national scene.

So, in short, we're wandering the desolate desert of college football irrelevance with no map or compass. Macro picture, nothing we do matters. Greed rules supreme.

Rudy · October 26, 2018

I really hope some of you are doing a bit.

MGNation92 · October 26, 2018

5 hours ago, NT93 said:

So a team that hit 2 out of the 3 criteria had a more successful season than a team who only hit 1 out of 3? And hitting all 3 would be the most successful?

Absolutely. At least that's what I believe, but hitting at least one would still be more preferable than hitting none.

What do you believe? What are your expectations?

Same question to you @MeanGreenTexan

NT93 · October 26, 2018

I believe that by your criteria several teams probably had more successful seasons than Alabama last year.😛

For me, I just want to be ranked at the end of the year (or at least getting votes). If that requires winning the conference, so be it. If that requires winning a bowl game, so be it. Edit: This is my hope, not my expectation. I guess my expectation is that we compete for the conference championship and go to a bowl game. With the watered down bowl system I know that's not a super high expectation, but if you're not going to a bowl it means you've had a pretty bad year.

I don't have a real strong belief in my next statement, but I think I'd take 10 wins over a conference championship. This year for example, I think I'd rather finish 10-2 and not win our conference than be 8-4 and win the conference. Based on the poll/thread about trading the SMU/Ark wins for LaTech/UAB wins, about 70% of the people here agree. Now, 10 wins AND a conference championship? Sign me up for that every year. Edit II: My opinion here would probably change if we were in a conference that actually rewarded the conference champion with a quality bowl game.

To me, winning the conference means more in the future when you can look back and claim to be Conference Champions in XX years. And I really do think that is significant. 10 wins is more of a boost in the present, which is also significant, so I think it's a tough call.

Bottom line is that we all want UNT football to be successful. I think this year is a success (so far), but others obviously disagree.

Edited October 26, 2018 by NT93