What is the G5 model program we should aspire to?

[oldguystudent]

3 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

It's absolute perception. Has she taken engineering classes at UNT yet? If not, what is this lack of substance she is referring to? Or the minimal difficulty? Just seems like an extreme perceptionally based opinion that was formed by chitter chatter than experience. If she has taken these courses and is underwhelmed, I digress. 

 

She won a funded research fellowship for the summer and has been working in a lab over the past year as a research assistant.  

But you go on with your expertise of everything, young man. 

[Ben Gooding]

12 minutes ago, oldguystudent said:

She won a funded research fellowship for the summer and has been working in a lab over the past year as a research assistant.  

But you go on with your expertise of everything, young man. 

So maybe UNT isn't for her. How the phuk was I suppose to know that. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

1 hour ago, oldguystudent said:

I think UNT's issue right now is that while there are certainly some top notch programs, they are not all top notch across the board.  UNT is still on the board for my daughter, but she's telling me flat out that she wants, and I quote, "More difficult classes." 

She's leaning toward engineering, and she's not finding much substance there at UNT yet.  

Granted, she'll only be in sophomore classes this coming year, and I always maintain the first two years are pretty much the same whether you go to Cisco Jr. College or Harvard.  

I don't know what the reality is vs. perception for her case, and I think that's a big part of the problem.  It's impossible for me to ferret out the facts. 

Engineering at NT is still relatively new.  May take a while for NT to climb up the ladder in that particular discipline. 
UTD has a very good (re: more rigorous) Engineering program as far as Texas schools go.

[oldguystudent]

8 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Engineering at NT is still relatively new.  May take a while for NT to climb up the ladder in that particular discipline. 
UTD has a very good (re: more rigorous) Engineering program as far as Texas schools go.

She's aiming Ivy/MIT/Cal Tech with UTD and UT on the radar (I...I just don't know if I can go on living if she becomes  a Longwhorn). 

UNT is still on the table for financial matters and the fact that she might have opportunities here that she might not get in higher profile programs.  She's likely to be published this coming year, which I doubt many other programs are offering at the sophomore level. 

[drex]

As I read the myriad of posts about UNT athletic future success/failure/perception, I cannot help but ask myself what percentage of the people who post on gomeangreen.com are donors to the MGSF.  I hope it is higher than I visualize...maybe Harry can give us a 'guestimate' of actual dollar participation from the members of GMG.com.

[oldguystudent]

7 minutes ago, drex said:

As I read the myriad of posts about UNT athletic future success/failure/perception, I cannot help but ask myself what percentage of the people who post on gomeangreen.com are donors to the MGSF.  I hope it is higher than I visualize...maybe Harry can give us a 'guestimate' of actual dollar participation from the members of GMG.com.

That's a historically dangerous question to ask.  I think a good majority of the regular posters here are donors at some level.  Some more than others, but even the hint of challenging or God forbid, a pissing war into who pays how much, is a perilous game to play. 

[TIgreen01]

Just keep doing what we're doing.  The next time a coach leaves or is fired, don't completely pull a 180 philosophically with the direction of the program like we always seemed to do under RV.  Keep building onto what they are building now.  For the 10 years after DD we were constantly in a cycle of trying to fit square pegs into round holes on both of our lines.  Keep some continuity going so we can get to a point where our lines are mostly upperclassmen who've had years to develop.  The very best teams we've had in my 20+ years following UNT always had experience on the lines.  Its the best way to have a fighting chance to upset a P5 AND to win in conference.

Same thing goes in basketball.  Until they do away with the one and done rule, the best way for G5s to compete with the blue blood programs is to beat them with well oiled, experienced teams.  

So, I guess the program I always admired the most was Southern Miss football from the 90s - the 00s.  They did the whole "more with less" thing better than anyone.  I think if we had a run today like they did back then we could go a long way to changing the perception around our programs.  Sustained success here, with our huge alumni base, enrollment and location has the potential to really bring in game changing dollars. 

Right now we're always playing second fiddle to smu in conference positioning.  Every realignment scenario depends on them leaving so we can fill in the "metroplex" spot in the next conference up the ladder.  We have to get to a point where we can turn the tables on that if we ever want UNT to get to where we all know it can go.  A UNT football or basketball program that legitimately operated at the same budget levels as their smu counterparts could not be ignored.  I don't think they could compete with us if we ever got to that point.  Accomplish this and I think the top of the G5 is a given, if not more.

 

[Ben Gooding]

3 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

Just keep doing what we're doing.  The next time a coach leaves or is fired, don't completely pull a 180 philosophically with the direction of the program like we always seemed to do under RV.  Keep building onto what they are building now.  For the 10 years after DD we were constantly in a cycle of trying to fit square pegs into round holes on both of our lines.  Keep some continuity going so we can get to a point where our lines are mostly upperclassmen who've had years to develop.  The very best teams we've had in my 20+ years following UNT always had experience on the lines.  Its the best way to have a fighting chance to upset a P5 AND to win in conference.

Same thing goes in basketball.  Until they do away with the one and done rule, the best way for G5s to compete with the blue blood programs is to beat them with well oiled, experienced teams.  

So, I guess the program I always admired the most was Southern Miss football from the 90s - the 00s.  They did the whole "more with less" thing better than anyone.  I think if we had a run today like they did back then we could go a long way to changing the perception around our programs.  Sustained success here, with our huge alumni base, enrollment and location has the potential to really bring in game changing dollars. 

Right now we're always playing second fiddle to smu in conference positioning.  Every realignment scenario depends on them leaving so we can fill in the "metroplex" spot in the next conference up the ladder.  We have to get to a point where we can turn the tables on that if we ever want UNT to get to where we all know it can go.  A UNT football or basketball program that legitimately operated at the same budget levels as their smu counterparts could not be ignored.  I don't think they could compete with us if we ever got to that point.  Accomplish this and I think the top of the G5 is a given, if not more.

 

This is golden advice that can't be ignored, and under this admin more than likely won't be. 

[untjim1995]

1 hour ago, oldguystudent said:

She's aiming Ivy/MIT/Cal Tech with UTD and UT on the radar (I...I just don't know if I can go on living if she becomes  a Longwhorn). 

UNT is still on the table for financial matters and the fact that she might have opportunities here that she might not get in higher profile programs.  She's likely to be published this coming year, which I doubt many other programs are offering at the sophomore level. 

I have several engineering friends and the schools in this state that get the kudos for having outstanding engineering schools are basically A&M and UT, then UTA and UH, since both of always been the main public universities serving the DFW and Houston energy and tech booms of the last 50 years in our state.

Like with athletics, we just started caring about engineering and sciences much later than the other universities, which is GIGANTIC reason our endowment is so low. Teachers, Musicians, and Artists are fine careers, but they don't make a ton of cash for a long time. Business, engineering, and science majors usually do make good compensation fairly sooner in life. When they have money to give back to their colleges, they like for them to continue to be highly recognized. Our business school--especially accounting and BCIS--have always been recognized very highly in the DFW area. So hopefully the engineering school will catch up in the decades ahead, as well.

Again, the athletics being a window to the university is where stuff like this really helps. We just never did it this way until recently, which is very unfortunate. It makes your colleges within the university better funded and more recognized. We just never felt that way at all for years.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, TIgreen01 said:

Just keep doing what we're doing.  The next time a coach leaves or is fired, don't completely pull a 180 philosophically with the direction of the program like we always seemed to do under RV.  Keep building onto what they are building now.  For the 10 years after DD we were constantly in a cycle of trying to fit square pegs into round holes on both of our lines.  Keep some continuity going so we can get to a point where our lines are mostly upperclassmen who've had years to develop.  The very best teams we've had in my 20+ years following UNT always had experience on the lines.  Its the best way to have a fighting chance to upset a P5 AND to win in conference.

Very well stated. 

[Cerebus]

21 hours ago, agw0038 said:

Even in recruiting,  rarely is UNT the kids' first choice. Often we are the best fit. And there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

I know a lot of current students.   Higher Ed is way too expensive to be something they don't put research time into.   I know for my wife and I came here because the programs we wanted to get into were considered in the top 5 nationally, not the state.  

Now, if you are talking recruits.  A lot of them (not all) won't be looking very hard at the academics, they want a place they cane excel in athletically, with academics being a secondary consideration.  So yes I agree a lot of the kids we recruit don't have a good idea of what type of program we are now, because they don't feel they need to put the research in.

But that is athletes.   Even then I would guess the amount of recruits we lose because of our perceived academic deficiency is very low.  

Non athletes understand they are walking away with tens of thousands of dollars in debt and the days of just going to a school cause are more or less over for most kids.  

[Cerebus]

2 hours ago, oldguystudent said:

That's a historically dangerous question to ask.  I think a good majority of the regular posters here are donors at some level.  Some more than others, but even the hint of challenging or God forbid, a pissing war into who pays how much, is a perilous game to play. 

We don't keep track of that at all, I can't see why we would even care.  The only thing we try to root out is trolls.  

I can tell you that almost everyone on this board is a donor of some size.  

[oldguystudent]

3 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

We don't keep track of that at all, I can't see why we would even care.  The only thing we try to root out is trolls.  

I can tell you that almost everyone on this board is a donor of some size.  

You should probably have quoted the guy who asked the question, not my response. 

[Cerebus]

12 minutes ago, oldguystudent said:

You should probably have quoted the guy who asked the question, not my response. 

[NTXCoog]

14 hours ago, TIgreen01 said:

 

So, I guess the program I always admired the most was Southern Miss football from the 90s - the 00s.  They did the whole "more with less" thing better than anyone.  I think if we had a run today like they did back then we could go a long way to changing the perception around our programs.  

 

One difficulty with attempting to follow that USM model is their head coach Jeff Bower played at USM and was very loyal to his school.  That kind of loyalty is very rare especially at a G5 school

[EagleMBA]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:08 PM, Cerebus said:

I can tell you that almost everyone on this board is a donor of some size.  

True, and size doesn't matter as much as their perspective and attitude!

[Arkstfan]

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:34 AM, NTXCoog said:

One difficulty with attempting to follow that USM model is their head coach Jeff Bower played at USM and was very loyal to his school.  That kind of loyalty is very rare especially at a G5 school

But they then wen 7-6, 7-6, 8-5, 12-2 with Larry Fedora. USM won only 7 games in four of Bower's last six years.

What got USM was the AD repudiated everything about the Fedora period. They scrapped the spread offense for a power attack. They hired a bunch of older guys for the staff and had a median coaching staff age that was nearly 10 years older than Fedora's staff and hired a guy with one losing season in Division II and two losing and one 6-6 in FCS.

Fedora wasn't loyal to USM, he was loyal to advancing his career and brought USM along for the ride.

It was the school rejecting everything Fedora did and represented that took them from 12-2 to 0-12 in a year.

That is how I took what TIgreen01 was saying. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Arkstfan

[TIgreen01]

42 minutes ago, Arkstfan said:

But they then wen 7-6, 7-6, 8-5, 12-2 with Larry Fedora. USM won only 7 games in four of Bower's last six years.

What got USM was the AD repudiated everything about the Fedora period. They scrapped the spread offense for a power attack. They hired a bunch of older guys for the staff and had a median coaching staff age that was nearly 10 years older than Fedora's staff and hired a guy with one losing season in Division II and two losing and one 6-6 in FCS.

Fedora wasn't loyal to USM, he was loyal to advancing his career and brought USM along for the ride.

It was the school rejecting everything Fedora did and represented that took them from 12-2 to 0-12 in a year.

That is how I took what TIgreen01 was saying. 

Yep, coaching change is inevitable.  ASU is a great example of how to do it right, as well.  Despite the carousel of coaches they've had after Roberts, they have kept roughly the same identity/philosophy.  I don't think the talent level at ASU has yet reached where USM was in their heyday but they've gotten to the point where you're surprised if they aren't the best team in their conference any given year.

[HoustonEagle]

On 6/7/2018 at 2:59 PM, Cerebus said:

That is just completely untrue.  We are the top school in the state for many programs.  I'm sorry you feel bad about whatever you got a degree from NT from, but there are incredible programs here.  

Listen, since my freshman year 25 years ago I have extolled the virtues of UNT.  With that said lets be honest about a few things.  The majority (not all) of UNT’s top programs do not have much competition around the US.  For instance UNT loves to toss out my major EADP as one of their top nationally ranked programs.  I think when I was in school there was only one other like program in the nation and now I think there a few more but it's a small crowd.  There are many other examples of this across the University. Also, UNT is not selective.  It is more selective than 25 years ago but it is still a pretty easy school to get in to. Lastly, UNT still does not get a true ranking in that god forsaken disservice to higher education that is the US News and World Report.  Regardless of its overweighting of things like endowment it is still the the bible when people want to preach and praise about their schools.  

 

A person can get a wonderful education at the University of North Texas.   Just don’t expect that degree on the wall to come with prestige.  

[UNTexas]

1 hour ago, HoustonEagle said:

Listen, since my freshman year 25 years ago I have extolled the virtues of UNT.  With that said lets be honest about a few things.  The majority (not all) of UNT’s top programs do not have much competition around the US.  For instance UNT loves to toss out my major EADP as one of their top nationally ranked programs.  I think when I was in school there was only one other like program in the nation and now I think there a few more but it's a small crowd.  There are many other examples of this across the University. Also, UNT is not selective.  It is more selective than 25 years ago but it is still a pretty easy school to get in to. Lastly, UNT still does not get a true ranking in that god forsaken disservice to higher education that is the US News and World Report.  Regardless of its overweighting of things like endowment it is still the the bible when people want to preach and praise about their schools.  

 

A person can get a wonderful education at the University of North Texas.   Just don’t expect that degree on the wall to come with prestige.  

Hate to say it but it's true. A lot of schools are in that same boat. Houston, TT, Texas State, ect... hell I just listened to some people crap on Baylor, SMU, TCU, OU, OSU, Arkansas, and the previous ones I mentioned. I think these wanks I was speaking to also hate puppies and children as well though.

Edited June 12, 2018 by UNTexas

[NTXCoog]

23 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

But they then wen 7-6, 7-6, 8-5, 12-2 with Larry Fedora. USM won only 7 games in four of Bower's last six years.

What got USM was the AD repudiated everything about the Fedora period. They scrapped the spread offense for a power attack. They hired a bunch of older guys for the staff and had a median coaching staff age that was nearly 10 years older than Fedora's staff and hired a guy with one losing season in Division II and two losing and one 6-6 in FCS.

Fedora wasn't loyal to USM, he was loyal to advancing his career and brought USM along for the ride.

It was the school rejecting everything Fedora did and represented that took them from 12-2 to 0-12 in a year.

That is how I took what TIgreen01 was saying. 

 

22 hours ago, TIgreen01 said:

Yep, coaching change is inevitable.  ASU is a great example of how to do it right, as well.  Despite the carousel of coaches they've had after Roberts, they have kept roughly the same identity/philosophy.  I don't think the talent level at ASU has yet reached where USM was in their heyday but they've gotten to the point where you're surprised if they aren't the best team in their conference any given year.

Got you.  So when losing a coach, continuity is key.  You have to be very careful with that path too.  UH hired Tony Levine as a continuity hire after Sumlin. That didn't work out very well.

Then UH hired Herman with a completely different offensive philosophy and had the most successful season in 2 decades.  After he left, we hire Applewhite for continuity.  Again that didn't work well.  We'll see how the drastic offensive change with KBriles on board works out.

It all comes down to getting good coaches regardless of philosophy.  If you can get good coaches and keep the same philosophy, that's ideal.  But if you have to choose between quality coach or continuity of philosophy, you hire the better coach

[Arkstfan]

1 hour ago, NTXCoog said:

 

Got you.  So when losing a coach, continuity is key.  You have to be very careful with that path too.  UH hired Tony Levine as a continuity hire after Sumlin. That didn't work out very well.

Then UH hired Herman with a completely different offensive philosophy and had the most successful season in 2 decades.  After he left, we hire Applewhite for continuity.  Again that didn't work well.  We'll see how the drastic offensive change with KBriles on board works out.

It all comes down to getting good coaches regardless of philosophy.  If you can get good coaches and keep the same philosophy, that's ideal.  But if you have to choose between quality coach or continuity of philosophy, you hire the better coach

Oh absolutely. I can sit down with a good notebook and sketch out how Freeze, Malzahn, Harsin, and Anderson are all different offensively and defensively in what they do and  how they approach recruiting and even how they run their practices. I can also outline how Harsin changed his offensive philosophy mid-season by elevating a Malzahn holdover to play calling to blend the styles and salvage the season.

I'm more speaking in terms of Arkansas hiring Bielema which required a complete roster overhaul because none of Petrino's recruits fit what Bret was trying to do or how USM went from a young high energy staff in a spread offense to an older, another day at office staff, trying to whip people at the line to run between tackles.

 

[UNTLifer]

Still can't believe schools will hire Briles.  I get that he is a great offensive coach, but his link to Baylor and the things he has been quoted as saying are enough to keep me away.