DRC: Dates set for re-vote on UNT student athletic fee increase

UNT90 · February 3, 2018

2 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

Like Ben said.. Yes...

They can tell kids about all all the things they want to do and say well UNT can’t get all this done because they don’t have the budget

And they say “even the students don’t like athletics there.”

Only at UNT are the students allowed to vote on this. It’s maddening, and shows that athletics is still nothing really more than something to give lip service to in the real thoughts of the UNT BOR.

MeanGreenTexan · February 3, 2018

23 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Right, I mean why do what EVERY OTHER G5 SCHOOL IN TEXAS DOES TO GIVE THEIR ATHLICS THE BEST CHANCE TO COMPETE.

That would just be so not UNT.

This fan base... 🙄

There are only 2 schools that are charging the max.

Both of them are schools that are clearly beneath us, and have to resort to that tactic to keep their pathetic programs afloat.

For the dude that constantly harps on “demanding more”, is that really the direction you want us to go?

meangreenJW · February 3, 2018

2 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

There are only 2 schools that are charging the max.

Both of them are schools that are clearly beneath us, and have to resort to that tactic to keep their pathetic programs afloat.

For the dude that constantly harps on “demanding more”, is that really the direction you want us to go?

I'm not sure where this "max" idea comes from. I can find that nowhere. I did find in a google search UTSA board is raising their fee to $21 so $20 can't be the max.

Also curious as to why you think they are beneath us and shouldn't be called peer institutions. By any metric you'd use academically or athletically, they look very similar. Similar budgets, similar enrollments, similar academic history. And probably similar athletic history. And UTSA is in our conference. What more is needed to consider them a peer? I think our upside is better but other than both but hard to argue they are peers now.

GrandGreen · February 3, 2018

4 hours ago, UNT90 said:

And they say “even the students don’t like athletics there.”

Only at UNT are the students allowed to vote on this. It’s maddening, and shows that athletics is still nothing really more than something to give lip service to in the real thoughts of the UNT BOR.

UTSA and Texas State students voted on their fee so obviously you are wrong.

1 hour ago, meangreenJW said:

I'm not sure where this "max" idea comes from. I can find that nowhere. I did find in a google search UTSA board is raising their fee to $21 so $20 can't be the max.

Also curious as to why you think they are beneath us and shouldn't be called peer institutions. By any metric you'd use academically or athletically, they look very similar. Similar budgets, similar enrollments, similar academic history. And probably similar athletic history. And UTSA is in our conference. What more is needed to consider them a peer? I think our upside is better but other than both but hard to argue they are peers now.

The state max was $20 and I really don't think that would change in today's climate.

This article is dated, but I doubt the data has changed much. https://www.texastribune.org/2016/03/18/texas-universities-are-hiking-student-fees-support/

meangreenJW · February 3, 2018

1 hour ago, GrandGreen said:

UTSA and Texas State students voted on their fee so obviously you are wrong.

The state max was $20 and I really don't think that would change in today's climate.

This article is dated, but I doubt the data has changed much. https://www.texastribune.org/2016/03/18/texas-universities-are-hiking-student-fees-support/

Just found this. http://goutsa.com/sports/2018/1/19/2018-utsa-student-referendum-faqs.aspx

It appears they are indeed moving forward with an increase but are having to get a student vote. Also appears their campaign materials homework came from looking at UNT's website.

GrandGreen · February 3, 2018

8 hours ago, meangreenJW said:

Just found this. http://goutsa.com/sports/2018/1/19/2018-utsa-student-referendum-faqs.aspx

It appears they are indeed moving forward with an increase but are having to get a student vote. Also appears their campaign materials homework came from looking at UNT's website.

Wow talk about pushing the envelope. I guess the state max has changed. NT should use UTSA's ad, but I really have some doubts about the statistics they use. The Florida schools are around the highest in the nation in student athletic fees, but unaware of any other university that is higher than UTSA's fees in CUSA.

Still got to wonder why of all the states' athletic fees, NT's appears to be the only one tied to construction. This is the factor that is really hurting NT. The other schools have no such limitations and can channel their fees into operating budgets while NT is limited to $5.5 per hour.

meangreenJW · February 3, 2018

54 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Wow talk about pushing the envelope. I guess the state max has changed. NT should use UTSA's ad, but I really have some doubts about the statistics they use. The Florida schools are around the highest in the nation in student athletic fees, but unaware of any other university that is higher than UTSA's fees in CUSA.

Still got to wonder why of all the states' athletic fees, NT's appears to be the only one tied to construction. This is the factor that is really hurting NT. The other schools have no such limitations and can channel their fees into operating budgets while NT is limited to $5.5 per hour.

I think the UNT fee requirements were put in by the students. It only stated the fee couldn't be charged until bonds were acquired and stadium constructed but the money can go for facilities or the athletic program. This is on the UNT website. Gives info on all fees. https://policy.unt.edu/sites/default/files/UNT Tuition and Fees Admin Manual_10.028_0.pdf

UTSA is far from the highest. This may be old but I found an article on CUSA fees. Here are a few that stand out. Charlotte is $44.32 per hr, ODU is $54 per hr. Most of the rest is between $15-$20. I remember reading where the state of Virginia may put in fee restrictions primarily due to how high ODU's fee is. One note to consider everyone's enrollment is different so one school getting more $$$ per hour may not actually get more $$$ overall.

oldguystudent · February 3, 2018

2 hours ago, meangreenJW said:

It only stated the fee couldn't be charged until bonds were acquired and stadium constructed

Somebody resurrect @UNTflyer to clarify on this. I am certain that I made a statement back when the stadium fee passed that it was in the interest of athletics to bond out for eternity and never actually pay them off, but I can't remember why that was.

Edit: OK. So here's how the language reads -- The fee was $7 an hour the first semester the stadium opened, and $10 an hour after that. The fee can only increase 10% per year unless otherwise specified by student vote. And the part I was talking about with the bonds:

Quote

The fee may not be charged after the fifth academic year in which the fee is first charged unless, before the end of that academic year, the university has issued bonds payable from the fee, in which event the fee may not be charged after the academic year in which all such bonds, including refunding bonds for those bonds, have been fully paid.

I suppose the other thing to consider is that had UNT exercised its right to increase the fee at a rate of 10% per year, it would already have doubled at this point to $20.

Edited February 3, 2018 by oldguystudent

GrandGreen · February 3, 2018

1 hour ago, oldguystudent said:

Somebody resurrect @UNTflyer to clarify on this. I am certain that I made a statement back when the stadium fee passed that it was in the interest of athletics to bond out for eternity and never actually pay them off, but I can't remember why that was.

Edit: OK. So here's how the language reads -- The fee was $7 an hour the first semester the stadium opened, and $10 an hour after that. The fee can only increase 10% per year unless otherwise specified by student vote. And the part I was talking about with the bonds:

I suppose the other thing to consider is that had UNT exercised its right to increase the fee at a rate of 10% per year, it would already have doubled at this point to $20.

According to one interpretation of the original fee, it could only be raised one time 1% without another vote. This seems to be correct because why have another election until this is done.

The theory was that has long as NT had athletic construction bonds to pay off that the fee would stay in effect.

3 hours ago, meangreenJW said:

I think the UNT fee requirements were put in by the students. It only stated the fee couldn't be charged until bonds were acquired and stadium constructed but the money can go for facilities or the athletic program. This is on the UNT website. Gives info on all fees. https://policy.unt.edu/sites/default/files/UNT Tuition and Fees Admin Manual_10.028_0.pdf

UTSA is far from the highest. This may be old but I found an article on CUSA fees. Here are a few that stand out. Charlotte is $44.32 per hr, ODU is $54 per hr. Most of the rest is between $15-$20. I remember reading where the state of Virginia may put in fee restrictions primarily due to how high ODU's fee is. One note to consider everyone's enrollment is different so one school getting more $$$ per hour may not actually get more $$$ overall.

Some conflicting information, per ODU website total fees ( inclusive of athletic but not limited to athletic fees) for total academic year are $500 The number you are quoted is probably inclusive of institutional transfers which is primarily generated by student tuition and fees. The large number from Charlotte appears to be calculated the same way as ODU.

Note, NT's per hour rate would be much higher if institutional transfers are included. So the comparison is not really valid.

meangreenJW · February 4, 2018

7 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Some conflicting information, per ODU website total fees ( inclusive of athletic but not limited to athletic fees) for total academic year are $500 The number you are quoted is probably inclusive of institutional transfers which is primarily generated by student tuition and fees. The large number from Charlotte appears to be calculated the same way as ODU.

Note, NT's per hour rate would be much higher if institutional transfers are included. So the comparison is not really valid.

Not according to everything I find. For instance, this is ODU webpage outlining all student activity fees.

https://www.odu.edu/content/dam/odu/offices/finance-office/docs/tuition-rates/student-activity-fee-on-campus-2017.pdf

Charlottes website says their athletic fee is $824 per year. That's $412 per semester. At 12 hours, that's $44.33.

I don't know what you mean by transfers but it's pretty clear what ODU and Charlotte charged based on the information on their website. You can also google their name and athletic fees and find stories about both. One article I found on Charlotte said they get almost $25 million from student fees.

GrandGreen · February 4, 2018

2 hours ago, meangreenJW said:

Not according to everything I find. For instance, this is ODU webpage outlining all student activity fees.

https://www.odu.edu/content/dam/odu/offices/finance-office/docs/tuition-rates/student-activity-fee-on-campus-2017.pdf

Charlottes website says their athletic fee is $824 per year. That's $412 per semester. At 12 hours, that's $44.33.

I don't know what you mean by transfers but it's pretty clear what ODU and Charlotte charged based on the information on their website. You can also google their name and athletic fees and find stories about both. One article I found on Charlotte said they get almost $25 million from student fees.

The numbers I cited were wrong, they were for international students, which seems odd that don't pay the fees. Although maybe it is some kind of on-line or other location apart from the main campus.

Most of the articles talking about the ultra high student fees at ODU are indeed about the amount of subsidies received from student fees. Subsidies include both direct athletic fees plus institutional transfers.

Institutional transfers are the amount that the university must contribute to the athletic department to cover the expenses. At ODU these subsidies were over 70% which is amazing in that they have I believe the highest athletic budget in CUSA.

Back to the original debate, it appears that both ODU and Charlotte have amazingly high student athletic fees that dwarf anything allowed in Texas. So I have learned a little.

Rudy · February 4, 2018

On 2/1/2018 at 9:05 PM, FirefightnRick said:

Now the opposition has had plenty of time to rally against this. No way it passes.

Rick

Hopefully, the anti athletics/apathetic crowd is too apathetic to vote.

GTWT · February 4, 2018

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 9:16 PM, meangreenJW said:

Also curious as to why you think they are beneath us and shouldn't be called peer institutions. By any metric you'd use academically or athletically, they look very similar. Similar budgets, similar enrollments, similar academic history. And probably similar athletic history. And UTSA is in our conference. What more is needed to consider them a peer? I think our upside is better but other than both but hard to argue they are peers now.

You and I have very different perceptions of UNT vis-à-vis Texas State & UTSA. UNT's peers are, in my admittedly biased estimation, TT & UH - large state schools that dominate their region of Texas. Texas State & UTSA are more on the level of Sam Houston, Stephen F. Austin, & Lamar.

untjim1995 · February 5, 2018

13 hours ago, GTWT said:

You and I have very different perceptions of UNT vis-à-vis Texas State & UTSA. UNT's peers are, in my admittedly biased estimation, TT & UH - large state schools that dominate their region of Texas. Texas State & UTSA are more on the level of Sam Houston, Stephen F. Austin, & Lamar.

There isn’t one graduate of Tech or UH that thinks they are peers with us...the academic rankings, the athletics, the endowment, etc...it’s not even close

Ben Gooding · February 5, 2018

9 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

There isn’t one graduate of Tech or UH that thinks they are peers with us...the academic rankings, the athletics, the endowment, etc...it’s not even close

Their opinion means jack shit.

UNTLifer · February 5, 2018

53 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

There isn’t one graduate of Tech or UH that thinks they are peers with us...the academic rankings, the athletics, the endowment, etc...it’s not even close

You literally think Tech and UH are above UNT academically?

GTWT · February 5, 2018

7 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

You literally think Tech and UH are above UNT academically?

It's hard to compare the academics of universities. It makes more sense to compare programs within universities. You can however apply metrics that give a rough ranking. In Texas one such effort can be found at: https://www.4icu.org/us/texas/ .

In this particular ranking UH is third, UNT is 6th, and TT is 7th. SWTSU is ranked 12th & UTSA 14th.

A different ranking, using very different metrics (http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/best-colleges-in-texas/ ), ranks TT 6th, UNT 8th, & UH 12th.

Edited February 5, 2018 by GTWT

MeanGreenTexan · February 5, 2018

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

It's hard to compare the academics of universities. It makes more sense to compare programs within universities. You can however apply metrics that give a rough ranking. In Texas one such effort can be found at: https://www.4icu.org/us/texas/ .

In this particular ranking UH is third, UNT is 6th, and TT is 7th. SWTSU is ranked 12th & UTSA 14th.

A different ranking, using very different metrics (http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/best-colleges-in-texas/ ), ranks TT 6th, UNT 8th, & UH 12th.

raw

MeanGreen_MBA · February 5, 2018

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 6:46 PM, UNT90 said:

And they say “even the students don’t like athletics there.”

Only at UNT are the students allowed to vote on this. It’s maddening, and shows that athletics is still nothing really more than something to give lip service to in the real thoughts of the UNT BOR.

and yet, you chose to go to school there????

untjim1995 · February 5, 2018

12 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

You literally think Tech and UH are above UNT academically?

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/tx?school-type=national-universities

And, yes, I realize the methodology they use somehow makes us look bad and everyone else on the list better. But this is the list that most people look at when they want to know how their university compares to others.

Obviously, in athletics and endowment totals, its not even close.

Pavlovs Eagle · February 6, 2018

7 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/tx?school-type=national-universities

And, yes, I realize the methodology they use somehow makes us look bad and everyone else on the list better. But this is the list that most people look at when they want to know how their university compares to others.

Obviously, in athletics and endowment totals, its not even close.

Lost me a Dallas Baptist ranking better than North Texas...